Plotline: Do we really need it?

[Balor]

I mean, I strongly doubt that a company of two, none of them professional writers, would be able to concoct AAA quality plotline. No offence, but no one is talented in everything... I'll be glad to be mistaken, but... and when you do something, do it right, or not at all.
Anyway, I propose going for 'Elite'-type gameplay style - not plot, but player driven... meaning that player will set his own goals.
Of course, that also has it's prereqs - many things to get player busy, but I think it's much better then coming up with some sort of standard 'save to world' storyline most of us fed up already. I might want to destroy the world! .
All, all in all, how I envision 'full' game that cater to such standards:
1. Indepth trading system (see my ideas on that).
2. Ability to build towns (well, small villages first) and mines (on deposits of natural resources) by themselves.
3. Ability to raid, capture, and completely raze towns.
4. Some sort of random-questing system (like it is now, only expanded).
5. Much better tournaments... where you will have to pay for entry, and have to have your own armor and weapons.
5. More factions, including neutral ones (right now we only have Zendar, heh. There are also bandits, but they are not done at all.).
That's it. We already have one of greatest combat system there is
Trading system will allow you have a lot of fun for people who like it, and for a long time.
Then, after you'll accumulate a lot of wealth, traders would be able to establish mines and settlements on appropriate places, supply them with guards, workers, slaves, goods, them making their own smithy, armory, stables, etc, gather caravans (and hire escorts for them) to get goods from other cities and sell ones you make...
Eventually, you'll be bathing in cash. After that, you'll be able to bribe away whole towns, and eventually get yourself a small (and perhaps, not that small ) kindom.
Those who like violent approach will gather army, at first raid caravans, then cities, then capture cities... again, eventually ending with your own empire .
And when you'll have simply nothing to do - you can start over, and randomized global map will greatly help in replayablity.
And besides, some sort of 'non-global' quests (more complicated then 'hunt riders' and 'supply armor'.. btw, supply type quests are WAY overpowered in terms of monetary rewards) that will allow you to, say, sway a town to your cause, get some sort of unique item or party member - but nothing 'global'. I'll elaborate on that later.
After all, plots usually are something that is supposed to drag player along, not allowing him to be bored... In games like Planescape: Torment and both Fallouts it was one of major feature, I agree. But please count games that come close to them in that respect? I guess fingers on one hand would be more then enough .
But if at any time player will have something interesting to do, and have long-term goals (like becoming best warrior in the lands (tournaments!), or a establish a trading empire, or simply conquering entire world ) - you will never need a plot at all.
That's just a suggestion, of course.
But there are quite a few games that went that way, and were loved - Elite is, perhaps, is the most obvious example .

 

[Kolya]

I'd like to see the game with a story first, so I can make my own mind up - remember, there are other people who paid into the game besides you.

 

[Balor]

Hey, it's a suggestions forum, after all
But I'm pointing out that even w/o a global plot it can be possible to have great fun, and there are some successful games that folllowed that.
After all, right NOW there is no plot, and it's still fun to play.

 

[Kolya]

Yeah, but why ditch an idea - major idea - before we've had the chance to playtest it?

 

[Balor]

Well, ditch? Do we have something to ditch? And besides, I'm not talking about that having a plot will, enevitably, suck. I'm talking about that there is alternative that is not worse at worst.
Of course, having all of that AND a strong plot will be the best... but, again, I doubt that it could be pulled off. Well, it's all up for Armadan. I'm just suggesting - that's what forum is for, right?

 

[ShadowMoses]

I think a story element would really add to the game. If it's not good then don't play the story!

I'll admit that i can't see much scope for the story and can only imagine some sort of crappy rts style plot but if they manage to think up something imaginative then it could be great.

I would imagine that cut scenes would be very time consuming so would suggest lots of descriptive text and more of a story board presentation as an alternative - or simply via dialogue. If you look at the Metal gear solid series large portions of the plot are told through dialogue and it's one of the most engaging stories around.

 

[Balor]

*nods* I agree.
But, like I mentioned - either do it right, or not at all... expecially if it's possible to. If Armadan feels like being able to make good plot - well, it's his game, he can do what he wishes to. But if not... better concentrate on actual gameplay, since even now, with no plot, it plays out really nice. And there were some nice games that didn't really needed (and sometimes even had) a plot.

 

[ShadowMoses]

Maybe a good solution would be not to do a "main quest" but write a series of mini quests that help build up the history of the world, the characters in it also have an impact on the world as a whole.

So for example there could be an ambitious lord who starts his own faction and attempts to conquer nearby towns. Do you help him? oppose him? or just ignor it?
Then this mini quest could end after he's conquered a few towns and be revisited at a later date.

To add depth you can learn about his character and why he is motivated to do such a thing and something of the history of the world at the same time.

 

[Edam]

What would the lord of the rings films be like without a plot, with just random battles?


I think a plot would not only be good, but would also be neccesary.

I don't think I'd be able to play something like Freelancer if there was no plot.

The only games that you can really get away without plots are online FPS's, and MMORPG's (Althought I've never played any, I get the idea that it's all driven by the players...)

 

[Resterstester]

General plot doesnt give you anything at all. Because after you recive your general target, you can just forget about it and do your own business $)
But if you really want to see general plot here, it must be combined with absolutely freedom that we have now.
For example - general plot may be like this.

Your character knows from some source (father/mother/dying messanger/secret letter/hear in the woods/and so on $)) that some kind of force(another state/race/some baron/evil maniac ) prepare to attack this lands and he must(want/need/may) defend this land from enemy army. He can do it by killing enemy groups/building his own army/unite different fractions/spy in enemy forces/join regular army/supports army with gold and resources... Or just join this huge force and take this lands for himself $)

And you can get some info in quest, that you recieve in game...

If you do dialog generating system like (our forces in town a just lose huge battle/enemy will be attacking from the north we desperadly need for new troops) will make taverns where you can hear this news one of the importants places in game...
And will add huge atomsphere boost )

 

[Balor]

*blinks* What M&B has in common with LotR films?
What I suggest is, in fact, what ShadowMoses said: "write a series of mini quests that help build up the history of the world, the characters in it also have an impact on the world as a whole."
Not some sort of old, epic and, frankly, horribly cliche quest to 'save the world'.
While I have faith in Armadan making it good, not having some sort of global plot like that to drag you along would be, actually, better.
You just should be able to 'make your own plot', so to speak. That might be even harder, though... but it's different kind of challenge, not 'writer's', but 'programmer's'. We already see that Armadan is a great programmer . He may turn out a great writer as well... but if not - here is my suggestion.

 

[Cian]

A plot is far from essential, what is however, is atmosphere. And the best way to do this is to create characters, plotlines and backstory. The easiest way to do this is to have alot of connected quests, so for instance, the Swadian Royalty and the war is unpopular with some of the Nobility, they wish to stage a rebellion and end the war. It's your choice to join with them and gradually supply and cultivate the rebellion, or whether to alert the King and his loyal Dukes and thereby cause a Civil War.
Thats just one of the quest lines that would drastically affect both the player and the world and yet the player doesn't have to involve himself if he doesn't want too. What I'd like to see more of, and would be easily attainable I think, is more NPCs and more backstory of them. Seeing interaction between them (much like the Baldurs Gate series) would be fantastic. Of course, if the player couldn't care less and just wants some meat shields, then fine. He can just recruit them and ignore their stories and -possible- quests.

 

[armagan]

Hi,

Just wanted to say that, while I am not actively participating in this -and similiar- discussions, I am avidly reading and appreciating all the different angles and suggestions. So... great discussion! Keep it up!

 

[Lothar]

ahoi

its a fact that i cant play the game right now(likeky the copie protection), and so i wont buy a licence code right now....BUT if i mange to get it work or buy a new pc(planed in a few month), i would love to have a "storry line" in the game!

but for now...i heave to look at the beautifull screens and hope that i can play the game in future!!


greetings
Lothar

 

[ShadowMoses]

A plot is far from essential, what is however, is atmosphere. And the best way to do this is to create characters, plotlines and backstory. The easiest way to do this is to have alot of connected quests, so for instance, the Swadian Royalty and the war is unpopular with some of the Nobility, they wish to stage a rebellion and end the war. It's your choice to join with them and gradually supply and cultivate the rebellion, or whether to alert the King and his loyal Dukes and thereby cause a Civil War.
Thats just one of the quest lines that would drastically affect both the player and the world and yet the player doesn't have to involve himself if he doesn't want too. What I'd like to see more of, and would be easily attainable I think, is more NPCs and more backstory of them. Seeing interaction between them (much like the Baldurs Gate series) would be fantastic. Of course, if the player couldn't care less and just wants some meat shields, then fine. He can just recruit them and ignore their stories and -possible- quests.

completely agree!

armagan: Do this!

 

[Whitmire]

First of all, I do think that there should be a slowly emerging plot just to keep things interesting. If the world does not change, the player won't have to adapt and will easily slip into a routine (like my current routine from running wool & iron trade from Curaw and Reyvadin and bringing back Linen and Velvet from Sargoth and Jelkala).

I think that the very first thing to do is to drop all ideas of a struggle between good and evil. A world without magic does not need dark hunters. Indeed, a struggle of politics, war and survival should be enough to provide with a background story. Even better, dropping all notions of good and evil makes the world a lot less black&white = believable.

The key thing in a plot is change and surprise. The plot must change for it to feel real - not completely, but in small steps. Surprise twists are also commonly used to bring drama into stories: a sudden betrayal, a new "truth" emerging, a trusted ally dying/disappearing/changing sides...

Looking at the world as it is now, it seems a bit generic, but there are elements that could provide for a nice background story. Still, I would like a complete rehashing of the plot and the world. At the moment it is a bit too, well, generic. There is no depth in the war between the two factions (and bandits).

You need a plot? I give you a plot.

Look at Braveheart: an excellent movie with just a few twists in the story. An oppressed people revolts and a hero starts to collect troops and allies to defend the lands and later to take the battle to the enemy. First he must unite warring clans. Then he has to deal with the established nobility, which is divided by internal struggle and very self-absorbed to defend their position - and possibly gain from England's increasing need of good allies. Then the hero is betrayed by the nobility - traded for lands and power. He loses an army but recovers only to be betrayed again! In the final twist of the story, the unwilling traitor (Robert the Bruce) switches sides just when he reaches the position he has achieved.

An excellent story which would work very well in Mount&Blade. The player has to start by merely surviving in a tough world, then he collects a retinue of his own, starts guerrilla warfare ambushing caravans and hitting where the enemy is weak, makes allies, gains in power and position, is betrayed by his allies, recovers, is betrayed again by his most trusted friends... Perhaps this story would end happily in a successful revolt and the player might even get to be King.

All this, and the player is in no hurry: he can move from one stage to another according to his own whims. Once he feels he is powerful enough, he can attack stronger enemy groups. If he feels like just "surviving" - perhaps even staying out of the revolt and remaining neutral - he can do that.

This story would also provide with two Difficulty Levels: people who wish to play on Easy level would choose the Loyalist side, people who wish to play Hard would choose the Rebel side. Even on the Loyalist side you wouldn't be limited to running down peasants with a lance: once the revolt gains in strength, you'd end up facing tougher opponents. You might also have to vanquish sea raiders (a nice surprise twist would be an invasion from the sea!), competing lords, bandit kings...

Heck, as a final twist, in the end the whole country could come under attack from the steppe people - the Mongols of your world. If the country was still divided, everybody would suffer in their ravages and the country would be burned and plundered back to the Stone Age. Only a united country, whether under the Rebel or the Loyalist flag, could stand against these "dark riders" - and this is where the player's efforts come in. This way you could also get to incorporate the "ultimate evil" - an uncaring, unscrupulous and cruel foe with whom one can not negotiate - and provide the story with a climatic final war, instead of ending "in a whimper" with the surrender of the King / Rebel leader.

How's that?

 

[Lothar]

hi

as said bevor, i cant play right now...(meybey tommorow, becouse i try it at a other pc for a short time)....but anyways

further i dont know if there are ANY magic/fantasy elements are planed in the game(hope not, i like relistic a way better ) but whitmire was brining it to a good point for me(thx whit )

I think that the very first thing to do is to drop all ideas of a struggle between good and evil. A world without magic does not need dark hunters. Indeed, a struggle of politics, war and survival should be enough to provide with a background story. Even better, dropping all notions of good and evil makes the world a lot less black&white = believable.

exactly what i think!


best greetings
Lothar

 

[Balor]

Well, that's exactly what I meant by having no plot to drag you along...
Just evolving world that will present you with situations you are free to solve in any way. That's the best way, I guess.

 

[NorphTehDwarf]

Hello, all! First post for me, so forgive me if I sound a bit stupid. I'd like to say that I've so far played the freeware demo, and loved most of it, even if I DID manage to get myself killed on a regular basis. Anyway, I must say that this game reminds me a lot of Fallout 2, if it were 3d and set in a medieval (dammit, don't wanna use the word twice in a sentence)... setting. What I mean is that a plot is most definitely essential, but the character shouldn't be forced into it, if you know what I mean. If someone already said that, then I offer my humblest apologies.

 

[Channler]

You know I'm not really as worried about the plot as I am interested in what I can do ie...

Have a town to my own
and theres many more things.. my mind is just pretty blank right now. I guess more so goals than a destiny