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Please remove cavalry from skirmishes
- Thread starter Silent_but_violent
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I would like to disagree. Punishing cav with rearing is fairly easy as the window is pretty large. In addition, it takes quite a few stabs to kill infantry with cav, and infantry has the upper hand when going it up front
I can believe that, but that doesn't really have to do anything with the point about 1v1.
Well, cav has the highest mobility so they can carry more then others as well as feed instantly ?
So my thread has been locked and I was directed to this one so I will just paste my post here.
In my opinion skirmish game mode gets ruined by over abundance of cavalry and some poor mechanics. Of course I speak from the position of pub player because that's what I play so don't give me insights from pro player matches, because pubs will never be like this and taleworlds shouldn't cater to like 2% of player base.
1. I think it's ridiculous that cavalry can just dive bomb into team fights and knock down only enemies while they do nothing to allies. Cavalry should bump and knock down their teammates as well, it would introduce some consequences for the headless riders.
2. Something is screwed with damage multiplier, because it's very hard to time and land a shot that will kill cavalryman in one hit while cavalry consistently one hits infantry with lance or pole arms while even on minimal speed. I also been lanced through the walls in the corners multiple times. The braced pike that was supposed to be some kind of counter to cavalry is a joke.
3. Cavalry hitboxes are messed up. It's difficult to actually hit the rider and shield protects him 360 degrees. Adding to that most of the horses are armored and can tank like 300 damage, so even if you manage to rear a horse with your team, you got to hit it like 10 times until you kill the rider or until other riders come by and kill you.
4. There's just too much cavalry. There are tons of games where all match is just 10 horses running around and if you decide to play infantry, feel the pain and spinning in the head. The sound of hooves everywhere makes it hard to distingiuish which one of 10 is now charging at your back. Imo there should be a limit, like 2 cavalry per round maximum.
In my opinion skirmish game mode gets ruined by over abundance of cavalry and some poor mechanics. Of course I speak from the position of pub player because that's what I play so don't give me insights from pro player matches, because pubs will never be like this and taleworlds shouldn't cater to like 2% of player base.
1. I think it's ridiculous that cavalry can just dive bomb into team fights and knock down only enemies while they do nothing to allies. Cavalry should bump and knock down their teammates as well, it would introduce some consequences for the headless riders.
2. Something is screwed with damage multiplier, because it's very hard to time and land a shot that will kill cavalryman in one hit while cavalry consistently one hits infantry with lance or pole arms while even on minimal speed. I also been lanced through the walls in the corners multiple times. The braced pike that was supposed to be some kind of counter to cavalry is a joke.
3. Cavalry hitboxes are messed up. It's difficult to actually hit the rider and shield protects him 360 degrees. Adding to that most of the horses are armored and can tank like 300 damage, so even if you manage to rear a horse with your team, you got to hit it like 10 times until you kill the rider or until other riders come by and kill you.
4. There's just too much cavalry. There are tons of games where all match is just 10 horses running around and if you decide to play infantry, feel the pain and spinning in the head. The sound of hooves everywhere makes it hard to distingiuish which one of 10 is now charging at your back. Imo there should be a limit, like 2 cavalry per round maximum.
The reason cav is hard to play is because their movement is stupid in the sense that they can't turn when they're going at anything faster than a trot.
Try fighting an archer whilst mounted with a lance and not have him just sidestep and shoot you with his arrow that will take half your hp in one hit.
Couches are unreliable because their damage is pathetic the vast majority of the time so just end up using thrusts being less of a risk and are more consistent damage wise. If you know you are going to hit with a couch then why bother in the first place seeing as it is harder to land a couch (Thrusts will outrange you & you can't block for the duration of the run-up) and a thrust is more reliable damage wise.
Cav hitboxes are completely scuffed. You can have your polearm aimed perfectly whilst riding at an enemy rider or inf or whatever and it'll just miss because the game said so.
The major reason as to why cav was op initially was because you could go around corners with your lance perfectly couched for an eternity and it would decimate everything in its path.
Cav whilst having a lance couched needs to be way more like Warband where you have to go in a mostly straight line for it to have any impact at all, as well as not being able to just hold it forever. Cooldown afterwards too.
The small horsebumps especially in clan games are near non-existent seeing as they barely trigger because cav can't join a melee with any real speed without getting skewered unless the inf in't paying attention.
"Heavy cav is too fast anyway" Sure its a wee bit on the speedy side but who cares when it ****ing dies in 2 hits anyway. Have fun trying to play Knight when javelins will kill your horse in seconds.
But seriously the movement is why its hard. You either go fast to get a cheeky thrust on someone who is busy or you try to stay in melee and end up going around them in circles trying to get a horsebump in until you die because they just sidestep.
Also literally every polearm can rear a horse throughout a 360 degree angle. Even from behind.
I genuinely think ranged weapons including the higher end bows are way more in need of nerf than anything else. You can get blackbarred whilst having pristine Imperial armour from a single ****ing throwing weapon or from a Fiann exercising his archer spam which you can't counter because he will just run away or sidestep your horse.
If cav is so op, why don't you just play cav.
Try fighting an archer whilst mounted with a lance and not have him just sidestep and shoot you with his arrow that will take half your hp in one hit.
Couches are unreliable because their damage is pathetic the vast majority of the time so just end up using thrusts being less of a risk and are more consistent damage wise. If you know you are going to hit with a couch then why bother in the first place seeing as it is harder to land a couch (Thrusts will outrange you & you can't block for the duration of the run-up) and a thrust is more reliable damage wise.
Cav hitboxes are completely scuffed. You can have your polearm aimed perfectly whilst riding at an enemy rider or inf or whatever and it'll just miss because the game said so.
The major reason as to why cav was op initially was because you could go around corners with your lance perfectly couched for an eternity and it would decimate everything in its path.
Cav whilst having a lance couched needs to be way more like Warband where you have to go in a mostly straight line for it to have any impact at all, as well as not being able to just hold it forever. Cooldown afterwards too.
The small horsebumps especially in clan games are near non-existent seeing as they barely trigger because cav can't join a melee with any real speed without getting skewered unless the inf in't paying attention.
"Heavy cav is too fast anyway" Sure its a wee bit on the speedy side but who cares when it ****ing dies in 2 hits anyway. Have fun trying to play Knight when javelins will kill your horse in seconds.
But seriously the movement is why its hard. You either go fast to get a cheeky thrust on someone who is busy or you try to stay in melee and end up going around them in circles trying to get a horsebump in until you die because they just sidestep.
Also literally every polearm can rear a horse throughout a 360 degree angle. Even from behind.
I genuinely think ranged weapons including the higher end bows are way more in need of nerf than anything else. You can get blackbarred whilst having pristine Imperial armour from a single ****ing throwing weapon or from a Fiann exercising his archer spam which you can't counter because he will just run away or sidestep your horse.
If cav is so op, why don't you just play cav.
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Mushbeast
Knight at Arms
I haven't played skirmish much and I can see my point not applying there whatsoever, but from other modes I have found that the only real OP part about horses is the abundance of them. Maybe as well as that is the fact that some factions just have ****house, short spears. You can still punish cav with a short spear, but if the rider has any idea what he's doing, and has a longer spear, then ya done for.
In TDM, cav should be expensive as ****. It should feel rewarding taking out a cav, which it does at the moment, except that you know they'll be back in a respawn or two, and you'll have to fight off fifty other cav at once. I don't find the mechanics themself to be OP, I think it's more of an issue of lack of communication/spawn points. When you have a couple fellas with spears you can hold off entire sections of the map from cav easy, but in a pub you have no reason to go anti-cav, especially because you get no real score from it.
Anyway, can't throw in any comment about skirmish yet, but those are my thoughts on cav in general at the moment. A helpful lil tip (probably a bug) for anyone with a spear, is that after rearing a horse, if you run and do a full 360, you can stab the horse again to get it stuck in stunlock until it's dead. It's a good ****en feeling.
In TDM, cav should be expensive as ****. It should feel rewarding taking out a cav, which it does at the moment, except that you know they'll be back in a respawn or two, and you'll have to fight off fifty other cav at once. I don't find the mechanics themself to be OP, I think it's more of an issue of lack of communication/spawn points. When you have a couple fellas with spears you can hold off entire sections of the map from cav easy, but in a pub you have no reason to go anti-cav, especially because you get no real score from it.
Anyway, can't throw in any comment about skirmish yet, but those are my thoughts on cav in general at the moment. A helpful lil tip (probably a bug) for anyone with a spear, is that after rearing a horse, if you run and do a full 360, you can stab the horse again to get it stuck in stunlock until it's dead. It's a good ****en feeling.
I can understand where a lot of frustrastions about cavalry in skirmish are coming from. They're fast, tanky, can one shot with a couched lance or well timed spear thrust, and can escape fairly quickly with the a "w" double tap. The new updates to archery make them harder to counter with a quick shot and with infantry it can feel like you need to keep your head on a swivel.
However, I believe these complaints are easily rectified if you just git gud casul.
To clarify, the reason you're getting couched/shot all the time is because you're either out in the open or focusing too much on a fight. Fix your positioning, this isn't the duel server, you're fighting a whole ass team of people with different roles and believe it or not, there are sweaters like myself out there that want to play their absolute best and with current matchmaking, there's a chance you're going to go up against one. You can learn most basic things to keep you alive within an hour of playing/talking with higher level players. Myself, a dumbass, managed to do it so there shouldn't be any excuse as to why some casuals like yourselves can't figure out some counters to annoying play styles. You ****s think you've seen cancer? Try fighting 6 Aserai tribespeople throwing 8 javelins each at your **** from 2 feet away. This isn't a kids game. Your dumbass role play shield walls have no power here. Go play Full Invasion for that experience.
It's also important to remember that you have access to a big multiplayer community. Playing with the Rat Party (https://discord.gg/pk3MMgw) and networking with the many high level players there (https://www.fiverr.com/share/mYDNk7) has improved my skill considerably. There are also many groups that network within the Rat Party discord that are open to casual players and will help them improve their BL skills (https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/numinous-beauty-nub-na-competitive-open.406885/) ((shameless plug)). I understand that this can sound somewhat condescending but to be able to have fun with a game you need to be able to play it well and I really want to see this community grow into a great space for multiple levels of experience. It's going to take time however and in the meantime; are you happy staying in silver?
*Note* Taleworlds has also expressed interest in building a robust esports scene and if they want to make that a reality they should listen the better players of the game.
**Note** I don't consider myself one of those better players
***Note*** This is all within the context of skirmish mode since that is what the op wishes cav to be removed from
However, I believe these complaints are easily rectified if you just git gud casul.
To clarify, the reason you're getting couched/shot all the time is because you're either out in the open or focusing too much on a fight. Fix your positioning, this isn't the duel server, you're fighting a whole ass team of people with different roles and believe it or not, there are sweaters like myself out there that want to play their absolute best and with current matchmaking, there's a chance you're going to go up against one. You can learn most basic things to keep you alive within an hour of playing/talking with higher level players. Myself, a dumbass, managed to do it so there shouldn't be any excuse as to why some casuals like yourselves can't figure out some counters to annoying play styles. You ****s think you've seen cancer? Try fighting 6 Aserai tribespeople throwing 8 javelins each at your **** from 2 feet away. This isn't a kids game. Your dumbass role play shield walls have no power here. Go play Full Invasion for that experience.
It's also important to remember that you have access to a big multiplayer community. Playing with the Rat Party (https://discord.gg/pk3MMgw) and networking with the many high level players there (https://www.fiverr.com/share/mYDNk7) has improved my skill considerably. There are also many groups that network within the Rat Party discord that are open to casual players and will help them improve their BL skills (https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/numinous-beauty-nub-na-competitive-open.406885/) ((shameless plug)). I understand that this can sound somewhat condescending but to be able to have fun with a game you need to be able to play it well and I really want to see this community grow into a great space for multiple levels of experience. It's going to take time however and in the meantime; are you happy staying in silver?
*Note* Taleworlds has also expressed interest in building a robust esports scene and if they want to make that a reality they should listen the better players of the game.
**Note** I don't consider myself one of those better players
***Note*** This is all within the context of skirmish mode since that is what the op wishes cav to be removed from
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10$ to learn to play a game? Wew. Most if not all clans will do it for free.
They shouldnt win right?!
Shouldn't they? They cost more, so they should have an advantage, no?
The problem is not the cavalry is just the lack of teamplay and skill from infantry. 2infantry with a spear can easily deal with 4 cav
No they can’t because of movement speed and the spear speed on foot. Also 6cavs vs 6 infs will never happen in a match. You have to keep in mind that infantry must deal with archers infs and cavs at the same time. You can’t expect infs to play with spear all the time because of how it bounces randomly in melee some of the time (bounces that don’t apply to cavalry when they are close to an enemy for some reason).
It's just a question of timing, my teammate never had problem with any cav. and for me i am not playing inf but never had problem to block a cav with a spear even if i am dismounted cav and i am slow asf. I understand your point with infantry, but cavalry have the same problem, they have to deal with shooter, inf with jav who can actualy 1hit or dismount them with the speed, spear and other cav. same stuff.
Except cav is a lot faster, can dodge more easily and can escape way faster. Also, I am wondering if anyone has had issues with the hitbox of the horse and cav. Whenever a cav rear, I noticed that you'll shoot through him during the animation of the rearing and it'll only shoot the horse for some reason. I'll try to post a video later (i might make a thread on foot and mounted units relationship)
As a *former* cav main I take deep issue with this one particular statement. Once you pick a path on horse youre pretty much committed to it. There is very little change of direction happening unless you slow wayyyyy down. Doubletapping S and changing direction that way is a great way to get your horse shredded by a decent archer.
This is incorrect, longer spears and especially lances, even shorter spears bounce much more since 1.5, which is on par with how they act on foot, with instant stabs being nigh impossible and requiring some distance or momentum to not bounce.
I mean you can't deny the fact that it's way easier to shoot a walking inf than shoot a riding cav, especially with how easy it is to footshoot
90% of the people saying cav isn't completely broken are cav mains. Cav's nerfs pretty much don't affect good cav players while projectiles have been nerfed greatly helping cav, meanwhile infantry's one handed weapons still constantly glance off horses. Cav was the most broken class in the last update and it's even more broken now, it's all reward, no risk.
Cav can literally maneuver more tightly, go faster, reach full speed faster, brake faster and be completely unpunishable by anyone not holding a projectile or spear. Cav main's will still say it's underpowered. Admittedly cav bumping seems inconsistent and weird, but the results of full bump are completely broken, and more importantly, since cav can come to a full stop and turn almost instantly, they really don't need to bump to get kills. They can also plow through teamates and enemies alike during fights making the class even more unpunishable.
The way they nerfed couch was weird, but it's definitely not underpowered right now since it can still be hit way too easily though its damage has been nerfed. It was Taleworlds taking the easiest possible solution rather than the right solution. The question should be whether you can hit a couch in circumstances, not whether the couch will do more damage than a stab.
The idea "git-gud you won't die to cav" is actually stupid. Because cav can make all the mistakes in the world without being punished, meanwhile an infantry can only really focus on surviving against a cav unless they get the opportunity to rear their horse.
Many of these problems really only pertain to heavy cav, but heavy cav being an easily accessible part of the game is kind of the problem. Heavy cavalry mechanics in Warband were completely broken, but in Native battle it balanced out because heavy horses rarely appeared, and when they did appear it was very unlikely they would have heavy armor to go with it, so a headshot from an archer would mean they died and only another cav player would be able to take the horse, not some crossbowman with a pavise shield.
Cav can literally maneuver more tightly, go faster, reach full speed faster, brake faster and be completely unpunishable by anyone not holding a projectile or spear. Cav main's will still say it's underpowered. Admittedly cav bumping seems inconsistent and weird, but the results of full bump are completely broken, and more importantly, since cav can come to a full stop and turn almost instantly, they really don't need to bump to get kills. They can also plow through teamates and enemies alike during fights making the class even more unpunishable.
The way they nerfed couch was weird, but it's definitely not underpowered right now since it can still be hit way too easily though its damage has been nerfed. It was Taleworlds taking the easiest possible solution rather than the right solution. The question should be whether you can hit a couch in circumstances, not whether the couch will do more damage than a stab.
The idea "git-gud you won't die to cav" is actually stupid. Because cav can make all the mistakes in the world without being punished, meanwhile an infantry can only really focus on surviving against a cav unless they get the opportunity to rear their horse.
Many of these problems really only pertain to heavy cav, but heavy cav being an easily accessible part of the game is kind of the problem. Heavy cavalry mechanics in Warband were completely broken, but in Native battle it balanced out because heavy horses rarely appeared, and when they did appear it was very unlikely they would have heavy armor to go with it, so a headshot from an archer would mean they died and only another cav player would be able to take the horse, not some crossbowman with a pavise shield.
