Please remove cavalry from skirmishes

[Alyss]

@Aprikosenmann Well I don't have a problem dealing 1v1 with cav while playing inf, as long as I have a spear or throwing weapons, but according to this thread people have a really hard time.
@Alyss Comparing Warband to Bannerlord is stupid. How are couched lances in a good spot when using a thrust deals more damage? Knocking down people has become way harder, 15-20 charge damage maybe against a peasant, the animation might be too long i agree. While i was in the combat change group i was vocal in favor of nerfing cav (200g,long spears for inf, greater rear cone, reducing knockdowns, less horse armour), just didn't expect them to do them all at once.
I just think to call cavs overpowered at the current state is ridiculous.

Comparing a balanced game (if you don't count LA and jav drops) to an unbalanced game in its current state isn't stupid. Couch can still one hit anything you just need to aim now and the longer your couch is on the less dmg you'll make apparently. Horse rearing is still not enough tbh because of double w, you can escape almost instantly.
I still think that hiding all the issues of cavalry behind the fact that they cost 200 golds now is a bad thing. It doesn't change the fact that it's super hard to take down a decent cav compared to taking down a top archer or top inf. There are so many things that favor cavs in this game, while nothing favors inf or archers

 

[Firunien]

@Alyss So, what's the point of couch if I deal more damage with a thrust, that's my original point, i played the game a bit so i know I have to aim. Also Horse rearing gives a free hit because you can't block, i start to feel you are trolling, if you get reared in a scrim you are as good as dead.

 

[Alyss]

@Alyss So, what's the point of couch if I deal more damage with a thrust, that's my original point, i played the game a bit so i know I have to aim. Also Horse rearing gives a free hit because you can't block, i start to feel you are trolling, if you get reared in a scrim you are as good as dead.

Yes you can't block when rearing, but it's so fast that the enemy has to be right next to you to hit you. Couch lance can deal more dmg than a thrust, in fact you can still one-hit everything with couch. And no you aren't as good as dead, because you can't get 1 hit with any foot weapon except a menav. Calling me a troll because I think cav is overpowered compared to archers and infs really proves that you lack arguments btw ^^

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

Alyss. Ill be completely honest. I think that once you see cav in a tournament setting you will realize it isnt nearly as hard of a carry as you think it is.

Cav costs 200 gold. In order to be cost effective, cav players will need to average 1.5 kills a life just to make the heavy cav worth it. You can easily check the NABB kpr stats for cav players and see that they are already not getting those kinds of numbers. The ceiling for an Elite cav player right now is around 2.4kpr and it falls off a cliff after the best of the best players.

When you do manage to headshot the heavy cav, stop his horse and gank him while hes stunned, or just chip the horse down and dismount him, he is stuck playing one of the worst classes in the game with his next life. All heavy cav is now is a gamble that an early power spike will justify the potential of being useless after a lucky jav bodyshot.

Could cav movement speed be lowered across the board? Yes. Is it the most pressing balance issue at the moment? Absolutely not. Once people figure out you can cause a horse to rear by stabbing his face from behind AFTER he has already completely gone passed you, they will realize that the new inf spears are actually extremely deadly area denial tools against the class.

Edit: Ceiling is around 2.1, not 2.4.

 

[Alyss]

Alyss. Ill be completely honest. I think that once you see cav in a tournament setting you will realize it isnt nearly as hard of a carry as you think it is.

Cav costs 200 gold. In order to be cost effective, cav players will need to average 1.5 kills a life just to make the heavy cav worth it. You can easily check the NABB kpr stats for cav players and see that they are already not getting those kinds of numbers. The ceiling for an Elite cav player right now is around 2.4kpr and it falls off a cliff after the best of the best players.

When you do manage to headshot the heavy cav, stop his horse and gank him while hes stunned, or just chip the horse down and dismount him, he is stuck playing one of the worst classes in the game with his next life. All heavy cav is now is a gamble that an early power spike will justify the potential of being useless after a lucky jav bodyshot.

" I still think that hiding all the issues of cavalry behind the fact that they cost 200 golds now is a bad thing. It doesn't change the fact that it's super hard to take down a decent cav compared to taking down a top archer or top inf. "
I don't think that letting broken mechanics because cav costs 200 gold is a good idea. 180 golds need to be the price for cav or even 170, but only AFTER they become a skill-based class. Putting them at 200 golds was just an easy way to not fix the fundamental problems of mounted units in relation to foot units.

 

[KSHMR]

I can't hold my laugh from these posts, its just too funny to read.

Someone suggested to remove cavalry from skirmish.

Yeah, read that again XD

 

[tom54p]

Comparing a balanced game (if you don't count LA and jav drops) to an unbalanced game in its current state isn't stupid. Couch can still one hit anything you just need to aim now and the longer your couch is on the less dmg you'll make apparently. Horse rearing is still not enough tbh because of double w, you can escape almost instantly.

Warband wasn't a balanced game, everyone that has played it enough is aware of that.
That's why in some tournaments or in matchmaking they changed some of the stats of some specific troops and that's also why khergits were banned.
As Firunien says, comparing bl to warband is wrong, that is because they work very differently on multiple mechanics(which is the reason why most people still prefer warband).
Cavalries are far from op, you could argue they are one of the most difficult class to play in this patch due to all the nerfs.
Couches should instantly kill everytime because it's very risky to pull them off, especially now with spears actually being able to stop cavs, the amount of skill it requires to actually couch is increased. You say they still one-hit? Ye but only with max speed and that makes them quite useless for multiple reasons.The first one that comes to my mind is that the moment you're going full speed with a couch but have something to avoid(Which is 90% of the cases), you have waisted time trying to get enough speed for it and could have done much more with a simple thrust.

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

On the subject of warband cav, as an archer player through and through, Id much rather deal with the current Bannerlord 70 couch damage fast cav that cant turn worth crap than a Warband cav with a Long Awlpike.

 

[Alyss]

Warband wasn't a balanced game, everyone that has played it enough is aware of that.
That's why in some tournaments or in matchmaking they changed some of the stats of some specific troops and that's also why khergits were banned.
As Firunien says, comparing bl to warband is wrong, that is because they work very differently on multiple mechanics(which is the reason why most people still prefer warband).
Cavalries are far from op, you could argue they are one of the most difficult class to play in this patch due to all the nerfs.
Couches should instantly kill everytime because it's very risky to pull them off, especially now with spears actually being able to stop cavs, the amount of skill it requires to actually couch is increased. You say they still one-hit? Ye but only with max speed and that makes them quite useless for multiple reasons.The first one that comes to my mind is that the moment you're going full speed with a couch but have something to avoid(Which is 90% of the cases), you have waisted time trying to get enough speed for it and could have done much more with a simple thrust.

And just because couches are nerfed cav is super hard to play? Not really. Avoiding spears for a cav is normal and not such a challenge (except on xauna because it's a closed map).
" they are one of the most difficult class to play in this patch due to all the nerfs. " Not really. I can't really call much of the stuff cav received "nerfs" because those current things should have always been there (spear stopping cavs and horse rearing). The 200 gold thing is an actual nerf, but I don't believe it's a good nerf, because as I said, it doesn't change the fundamental problems of the relationship between infs and cavs.
As I said, couch is in a decent spot, it's not overpowered and still useful for backstabbing.

 

[Namakan]

As I said, couch is in a decent spot, it's not overpowered and still useful for backstabbing.

Except it's not. Hitting someone in the back with a couch likely means they're moving away from you, and that means you won't get a kill because you only deal 70-80 damage at full speed. I'll have a thread up later/tomorrow with some issues I see with cav, but I still need to prepare some video.

 

[Alyss]

Except it's not. Hitting someone in the back with a couch likely means they're moving away from you, and that means you won't get a kill because you only deal 70-80 damage at full speed. I'll have a thread up later/tomorrow with some issues I see with cav, but I still need to prepare some video.

If it's true then you'll be right, but I haven't encountered this problem so I wasn't aware of this issue. But if it's true I believe it's a bug rather than an intended feature, unlike the bumps.

 

[Ruthven]

Comp is one thing, I think OP is complaining about pub skirmish. I tend to agree more with Alyss tbh, the ways in which cav are powerful aren't as fair as they should be.

Cav in pub matches can be extremely demoralising to play against. At the same time, I think there is a big perception issue as well. Usually when one team has the skill advantage, they have no reason not to just spam cav and end the match quickly - the other team can't compete for XYZ reasons, but honestly if the cav stacking team went all inf/archer the outcome would probably be the same. I'm guessing any decent cav player who solo q's is well used to being accused of crutching on broken cav mechanics - but generally those players could put up the same (okay, same-ish) score as any class, it's just a lot more boring and tedious when you roll the other team no matter what.

The reality of 6v6 is that any small deviation in 1 player can make a ridiculously huge difference on the outcome of the match. If you are solo queuing you have to accept that you will get matches that are unwinnable here and there - my heart goes out to those new players who want to play Skirmish just for fun. If you aren't a comp player you're basically a giant target for cav, and it's demoralizing as hell to get cav stomped because they have so many options to kill you unless you really know what you're doing. Cav is the first hurdle you must pass before you can become a better player, and learn to complain about inf/archers as well.

About cav balance:
Bear in mind that I am a cav main in BL, and I am pretty okay at it. The nerf to couch lance damage I don't see as a very impactful change. The biggest issue as Alyss already mentioned is the incredible maneuverability and survivability of cav classes. The fact that cav bump down ground troops for so long and yet (again as Alyss pointed out) are nearly immune to taking damage when dismounted themselves is a baffling design choice in the first place and baffling that it has not been fixed long ago. Dismounting a cav usually means scuttling him 10m away from your inf to safety, and as soon as they hit the ground they can literally twist their backs in ridiculous ways to shield up in nearly any direction. Yes, it is easier to get stopped now but unless the other team brings ~3 of their soldiers to bear on you while reared you will still be able to get away.

Couch lances are no longer guaranteed kills in many cases, but I still have some issues with them balance wise that the dmg reduction did not change. Being able to turn very tight corners while holding a couch is quite OP. I honestly think it is analogous to letting archers bend shots around corners. Unless you are immediately faced with a spearman, there is next to no risk. You can shield up or double-S to retreat if necessary, or simply hold W for kills when applicable. If someone has their shield up, a bump couch is not at all difficult to perform - and is again risk free to attempt. If you do get a successful couch - you can start couching again immediately! You are also able to couch up staircases and ramps, to get easy damage on those pesky archers that think the high ground can save them. Why are these strategies all still viable? The damage nerf saves the lives of some comp players - it did basically ****all to the newbs/pubbers that expect the game to seem fair from a visual language perspective. I actually thought it was interesting someone mentioned Xauna as being less favourable for cav - IMO this is the easiest cav map, since no matter where my opponent is, I have 3 directions to choose from and no matter where I am, 2 of those I can get to without the other team seeing me, until I am couching my lance around a corner. If the team's communication and spearing isn't completely on point it's free kills, damage reduction or not.

Ah now, you might say - well stabs at speed can do similar damage to couchlance, including 1shotting troops. With the extra reach, stabs are now surely the better option in all instances right? The difference is, stabs must be timed correctly - a couchlance is an active damage dealer at all times; I think this has a much bigger impact than a lot of people assume. Reducing the damage output did not change the ways in which couchlance was unfair at its core - and the couch is still secondary to cav's nimble maneuverability when it comes to trying to counter

tl;dr horsie strtonk

 

[SondiRWolf]

Nerf bumps and cav is exactly where they should be. Cav isn't supposed to be good 1v1, it is a harasser troop. You go in there to help your inf/archers in 1v2 situations and so on. With the weapon change animation being a lot slower now it is also an indirect buff to the cav troop, because you can't really be in a 1v1 situation as an inf with a 1h/shield or 2h axe/hammer and quickly shift to your spear when a cav player comes to poke you.

 

[Rangah]

I don't understand the point of people bringing up maneuverability and bumps after 1.5.0 as points of unbalance regarding cavalry.

Every horse that's not the camel turns like a tank. Once you're at some speed, good luck hitting that target you were going for if he but takes a few steps to either direction. Or do people mean double tapping W/S when they say maneuverability?

Bumps after 1.5.0 don't happen nearly as often, even the "tougher horses" can do 6 dmg on a full speed bump and not even knock the person down. Light horses can only do interrupt bumps even at max speed (with the odd knock down once every 10 matches). The one knockdown animation where you stay lying on the floor for several seconds needs to go, though.

 

[Firunien]

If it's true then you'll be right, but I haven't encountered this problem so I wasn't aware of this issue. But if it's true I believe it's a bug rather than an intended feature, unlike the bumps.

I have been hitting heavy infantry for 30 to 40 in the back with couches while they run away from me, at full speed, that's what buggs me about the couches, they were too strong before because you onehitted anybody even at low speeds.

About the cost thing, Heavy Cav is a good Infantry(high armour, good melee equipment, good weapon profiency) except for on foot movement speed while beeing on a tank. It's not a harassing class, light cav falls in that category. A heavy inf costs 160, so the heavy cav must be more expensive.
The perceived better balancing in warband has to do with nothing else then the economy, you basically spend your whole money on the horse, the class system is at fault. A knight can't cost the same as heavy infantry while beeing balanced.

 

[method man]

The reality of 6v6 is that any small deviation in 1 player can make a ridiculously huge difference on the outcome of the match.

When you factor in the potential for respawning, 6v6's with any skill disparity are pretty lopsided.

 

[WakaWaka]

i am not even inf player and i never had problem to block cav has inf just f*cking use spear lol

 

[Brandis.]

I have been hitting heavy infantry for 30 to 40 in the back with couches while they run away from me, at full speed, that's what buggs me about the couches, they were too strong before because you onehitted anybody even at low speeds.

About the cost thing, Heavy Cav is a good Infantry(high armour, good melee equipment, good weapon profiency) except for on foot movement speed while beeing on a tank. It's not a harassing class, light cav falls in that category. A heavy inf costs 160, so the heavy cav must be more expensive.
The perceived better balancing in warband has to do with nothing else then the economy, you basically spend your whole money on the horse, the class system is at fault. A knight can't cost the same as heavy infantry while beeing balanced.

Wow, that sounds like a bug. Whenever I've couched people it's been 150-250. Of course I might have just gotten lucky.

 

[Tork789]

Heavy Cav costs 200g it's supposed to win against any other class in a 1v1

Except that it can't right now. If an inf is with spear and adequatly skilled you're going to get killed or dismounted, if he doesn't have a spear he can just cover with shield and avoid you forever putting sword slashes on your horse until you get dismounted, you will never bump him. If it's an archer he can just shoot you, even if you cover with shield - in your leg. If it's a skirmisher with javs it's even easier - just throw the pointy sicks at the horse.

Cav right now is just a huge noisy backstabber. I can't imagine anyone actually believing it's op in any way

Wow, that sounds like a bug. Whenever I've couched people it's been 150-250. Of course I might have just gotten lucky.

I'd say the couch is pretty broken right now. You can only do huge damage if he runs at you. If he stands still you have a chance of OHK but not too high. If he runs away from you - the lance can just bounce off.

 

[Demochi]

A big problem with cav is the relative low risk attached to attack an inf, when compared vice-versa.

If the cav gets reared, it's difficult to get punished. There's a small opportunity window for inf and ranged to deal damage, plus the height and the stature of the horse blocking the rider makes it hard for inf to get a hit in. The inf rearing the cav can reliably punish the cav, if no one is around. But if it's a spear, you can only deal around 25-30 damage. That is nothing, compared to the cav that can do a stab or swing and deal 40+ after a double-tap W.

The only good way for an inf to punish a cav is with a swingable 2h polearm:
-It is long enough to have a chance of rearing the cav with a spear.
-It can follow-up with an overhead/side swing, that can decently reach the cav and deal proper damage.

However, 2h swingable polearms are scarce in the current perk system. Only the Empire (menavlion) and the Khuzait (glaive) have one, with the latter not even giving it to their infantry!


As an inf, you can make at most 1 mistake, before you die to a cav. A cav can make 3, or 4. Allowing infantry to punish cavalry better will go a long way. And they already have their specialized tool for it: spears. They're just not up to par against them right now that is partly the cause for this discussion.