Please give casual multiplayer the love it needs too

[DarkieBabZ]

Can we just focus on making good single player first. Single player is why this game excists, multiplayer is secondary priority. Post launch they can improve multiplayer for all i care, i will play it at some point, but single player is what makes or breaks this game.

I agree with this and I am certain that we will still see good MP modes. Personally I am not a fan of all the focus on ranked modes (Duels/low count battles) But atleast they will most likely restrict it to that and have proper casual MP modes as well.
This game will be amazing in terms of SP and I seriously think that is where most of the long time fans will be or atleast be the most of the time. Its not unhealthy to focus on bringing in more people IE the people that want a MP fighting game, since their cash are just as good as ours, but I have no doubt that the most focus is on our SP exprience. So having great MP modes and abit of love for that is just a bonus for us all. Even if I dislike ranking in games, I look forward to being able to duel and stuff ie.

But its great that people come and showcase their opinion and feedback, that is what we need.

Casuals are overrated. Fromsoftware games continue to prove that high difficulty feels rewarding and we do not need casuals dumbing down experiences. That said, you still have siege and deathmatch, there is no reason for this thread. Stop whining, competitive players deserve their piece of the cake because they keep a big portion of this community alive, all the doom and gloom since the last dev blog is beginning to piss me off.

I don't consider Fromsoftware games hard, they are simple console games and being tedious rather than difficult. The the more complex/sophisticated a game becomes the less people will be drawn to it, but if your game can do abit of all and actually be tweaked, then it can be popular anyway. Then you also have the hype factor, if x people all agree x game is great, then most likely Y people might try it out and get hooked, its simple human behaviour. Many of the games I play are RPG's (cRPG's) and GHRTS. One of them are niche the other is not as popular as in the 90's and first few years of this millennium. That being said they still release several good games from those genres every year, because people support it community wise and because people crowdfund. Games are also more streamlined now a days and that helps as well..

The fact we will see "Ranks" in some MP modes in this game, is also a sign that they want to have different types of people in the game! I do love both SP and MP, but personally I don't need ranks to have fun, but some people would never play this game if it had no MP with ranks.. Choice, freedom and being sure the main community gets what they want, is a good way to enhance the exprience.

Don't double post, please. --Orion

 

[DarkieBabZ]

Casuals are overrated. Fromsoftware games continue to prove that high difficulty feels rewarding and we do not need casuals dumbing down experiences. That said, you still have siege and deathmatch, there is no reason for this thread. Stop whining, competitive players deserve their piece of the cake because they keep a big portion of this community alive, all the doom and gloom since the last dev blog is beginning to piss me off.

I don't consider Fromsoftware games hard, they are simple console games and being tedious rather than difficult. The the more complex/sophisticated a game becomes the less people will be drawn to it, but if your game can do abit of all and actually be tweaked, then it can be popular anyway. Then you also have the hype factor, if x people all agree x game is great, then most likely Y people might try it out and get hooked, its simple human behaviour. Many of the games I play are RPG's (cRPG's) and GHRTS. One of them are niche the other is not as popular as in the 90's and first few years of this millennium. That being said they still release several good games from those genres every year, because people support it community wise and because people crowdfund. Games are also more streamlined now a days and that helps as well..

The fact we will see "Ranks" in some MP modes in this game, is also a sign that they want to have different types of people in the game! I do love both SP and MP, but personally I don't need ranks to have fun, but some people would never play this game if it had no MP with ranks.. Choice, freedom and being sure the main community gets what they want, is a good way to enhance the exprience.

 

[Scarf Ace]

Casuals are overrated. Fromsoftware games continue to prove that high difficulty feels rewarding and we do not need casuals dumbing down experiences. That said, you still have siege and deathmatch, there is no reason for this thread. Stop whining, competitive players deserve their piece of the cake because they keep a big portion of this community alive, all the doom and gloom since the last dev blog is beginning to piss me off.

None of what I asked for is about dumbing down the game, and this would be obvious if you had read the thread properly. Alas, elitists normally don't bother with that sort of thing.
In addition, competitive parts of games aren't off limits to casuals, as there are ranking systems, and less serious modes do generally still reward you for being skilled.
The competitive scene, especially with its ridiculous elitism has probably done absolute jack to keep the M&B community alive. That achievement goes to primarily to battle events, roleplaying, custom maps, modding (especially of the native-compatible sort) and large servers.
Warband's competitive community is basically invisible. There's no bigtime twitch presence, "major" events are few and far between. Compared to far older games with less developer support, Warband's competitive community is nowhere. Small scale competitive just isn't M&B's strong point regardless of skill ceiling.

So therefore, if Taleworlds overemphasises the competitive side of MP to the point where it influences the rest of it, that'd be a bad idea.

 

[BayBear]

It’s sad we live in a time where folks believe we can’t have a complete singleplayer and multiplayer game at launch.

 

[Orion]

The competitive scene, especially with its ridiculous elitism has probably done absolute jack to keep the M&B community alive.

Excuse me, what? I haven't played competitively since 2013, but I've been running, consulting, and advising tournaments since 2011. The last one I took part in running was this one, which you may have seen a few news items for on the main TaleWorlds website. We had almost 300 players in a three week tournament more than 8 years after the game's retail launch. There's another session of a regular tournament running right now which has even more players across more than 30 teams. We don't have the numbers of Dota, Counter-Strike, Starcraft, or LoL, but for having next to zero money flowing into the scene and for a game which is 9 years old today (happy birthday, Warband ) I don't think you have any grounds to say the competitive scene has done nothing.

 

[Gibby Jr]

The startling longevity of Warband's multiplayer competitive scene demonstrates how enticing it can be. The main problem "competitive Warband" has had is that there is no easy way to get involved; you basically have to know someone already to get into a clan, and with no inbuilt game systems to entice people the scene has remained small. However, the fact that there is a substantial group of people that have been playing for almost a decade (despite the lack of money or reward for doing so) is pretty astounding.

Competitive Warband is incredibly unique and fun, and it doesn't necessarily appeal to a different demographic to those that like more casual modes or singleplayer. Who doesn't like testing their melee skill? I love SP in Warband and of my 5000+ hours I probably have ~400 in SP; I expect I'll sink just as many into Bannerlord SP too. At the same time, I love Warband MP; the large battles are great fun, as are the sieges, but a lot of people really need to wait and try out the competitive stuff before they dismiss it.

TW is obviously focusing on SP; a MP beta doesn't change that fact at all. MP is something that needs balancing and testing by players to make sure it isn't a mess on launch; improvements to the combat will be made from the beta that will benefit SP too. TW have been talking about SP only for many years now, so let the MP side have a few months pls 

 

[Fietta]

The competitive scene, especially with its ridiculous elitism has probably done absolute jack to keep the M&B community alive. That achievement goes to primarily to battle events, roleplaying, custom maps, modding (especially of the native-compatible sort) and large servers.
Warband's competitive community is basically invisible. There's no bigtime twitch presence, "major" events are few and far between.

It's very unfortunate you think this way, the whole point of this beta test is for the Competitive game mode which ultimately came about as a direct result of the Warband Competitive scene. I don't think anyone is saying that the competitive scene brought along players to the casual side of warband, It's also not 'keeping the community alive' but that isn't why the competitive scene exists, the competitive scene is a microcosm of Multiplayer, which only appeals to a small margin. The multiplayer that's being tested is the competitive modes such as Skirmish, the more casual modes such as Siege will most likely not play a part in this testing period.

There's been Native events since 2010, progressively been getting bigger with larger prize pools. Taleworlds even decided to host BoB (Battle of Bucharest) with the Lituanian E-Sports Federation and got loads of attention for the scene. We've had many fantastic sponsors over the years such as GFuel, FreakyTShirts and Razer. Prize pools as large as $2000 with the WPL. You can even look at the 'completed' section of the multiplayer events thread here. There's also many people who stream these battles such as myself (from time to time), Cardboardbox3, PurzelBlume, Greedalicious, Apfel and Bladecast and many people record their matches and put them on their youtube channel, all of which draws attention.

I guarantee in the future there will be more testing with more people, so all these people you deem 'casuals' will all get their hands on it and enjoy it, I've been itching for more multiplayer content after Callum 'hinted' at it, been making threads about the combat etc. I'm very happy that they've produced a dev blog about multiplayer (I will say the content within that blog wasn't entirely new but fantastic nonetheless) and I hope more come our way  .

 

[Calamity]

The competitive scene, especially with its ridiculous elitism has probably done absolute jack to keep the M&B community alive.

I'll take YOU'RE WRONG for $100 Alex.

隐藏

I know Marnid covered most and even gave a similar link but let me assist him (not that he needs it).

Exhibit A: https://www.taleworlds.com/en/Games/Warband/News/238

Exhibit B: First sentence after the headline: "For the past 8 years, we have watched while our amazing multiplayer community has established and fostered an active competitive scene for Mount & Blade: Warband"

隐藏

 

[Danate]

I'm all for just SP beta.

All i play is SP Warband and it is very gud and fun.

Pls taleworlds do not make mistake caring about MP.

 

[Scarf Ace]

The competitive scene, especially with its ridiculous elitism has probably done absolute jack to keep the M&B community alive.

I'll take YOU'RE WRONG for $100 Alex.

隐藏

I know Marnid covered most and even gave a similar link but let me assist him (not that he needs it).

Exhibit A: https://www.taleworlds.com/en/Games/Warband/News/238

Exhibit B: First sentence after the headline: "For the past 8 years, we have watched while our amazing multiplayer community has established and fostered an active competitive scene for Mount & Blade: Warband"

隐藏

So your entire argument is "nuh uh,  he said it matters!", eh?

Goodness, you sure suck at this arguing thing.

1. Nobody outside of these forums gives a toss about competitive. Not on Reddit, or anywhere else. If you just play M&B Multiplayer, you can hop onto various populater servers and hear about the competitive scene. This place is an echo chamber. Calradic Capaign way outperforms you in terms of visibility, that's what draws people in.
2. Having one event in Bucharest (with no follow-up) is not a sign of success. People didn't even care about that one event.
3. You have no Twitch presence. Competitive Age of Empires 2 has a major twitch presence. Competitive Smash Bros Melee has a major twitch presence. Even Onward, a VR game with a far bigger barrier to entry, and Slap City, a niche game among niche games outdo you. You don't garner an audience, because nobody wants to see M&B played in the most boring way possible.


You guys can keep fellating each other about how much you matter, but that doesn't make it true, even if some people in the devteam share your delusions.

(snip)

The simple fact is that those prize pools are tiny by modern standards (especially for a team game), and if you look at the youtube views M&B competitive has, they're absolutely tiny compared to random stream recordings for, say AoE2.
I get that you're trying, it's not working.

 

[sleepy dragon]

The competitive scene, especially with its ridiculous elitism has probably done absolute jack to keep the M&B community alive.

I'll take YOU'RE WRONG for $100 Alex.

隐藏

I know Marnid covered most and even gave a similar link but let me assist him (not that he needs it).

Exhibit A: https://www.taleworlds.com/en/Games/Warband/News/238

Exhibit B: First sentence after the headline: "For the past 8 years, we have watched while our amazing multiplayer community has established and fostered an active competitive scene for Mount & Blade: Warband"

隐藏

So your entire argument is "nuh uh,  he said it matters!", eh?

Goodness, you sure suck at this arguing thing.

1. Nobody outside of these forums gives a toss about competitive. Not on Reddit, or anywhere else. Calradic Capaign way outperforms you in terms of visibility, that's what draws people in.
2. Having one event in Bucharest (with no follow-up) is not a sign of success. People didn't even care about that one event.
3. You have no Twitch presence. Competitive Age of Empires 2 has a major twitch presence. Competitive Smash Bros Melee has a major twitch presence. Even Onward, a VR game with a far bigger barrier to entry, and Slap City, a niche game among niche games outdo you. You don't garner an audience.


You guys can keep fellating each other about how much you matter, but that doesn't make it true, even if some people in the devteam share your delusions.

Is your point more popular games are more popular?

 

[Scarf Ace]

Is your point more popular games are more popular?

On the contrary, I'm saying that twenty year old games, party games, obscure games and even games that are technically limited to a smaller audience manage to outperform Warband when it comes to competitive visibility.
The simple fact is that people don't look at M&B and think "competitive multiplayer". If Taleworlds focuses heavily on competitive to the point where it affects the features of non-competitive MP (i.e. equipment limitations), then they're essentially making the bit that matters less complete in the name of the bit that doesn't matter.

 

[lolbash]

I HATE MULTIPLAYER 

No one said that competitive Warband is big and massive and thousands of people tune into the livestreams every week. Orion is trying to say that despite Warband's many flaws that prevent it from attracting new players there is still a huge dedicated group of people that still play this game, to show that there is still potential for competitive to grow and become popular.

You can read his post here explaining how Warband isin't as popular right now and what we can do to fix it in Bannerlord

隐藏

Regarding people arguing higher-level players are better because they understand the mechanics and tactics. My point is that if one wants to test the average experience assuming this game wants to have a broad audience they are the single worst group to test on. Exactly because they aren't the average unskilled, idiotic and useless player button mashing their way through the game.
I don't think Taleworlds wants to make a game for the hardcore audience, the people who will pour in thousands of hours because that's too small a demographic to be commercially viable. You don't survive as a company by selling a thousand copies to the hardcore fans. You survive by selling a hundred thousand copies to the average gamer*. Of course high-level play is relevant but most people will never reach that because most players don't invest that time.
.
And you may be arguing I'm saying you should pander to the lowest common denominator but... yeah, I am. That's how you sell to a mass market.
So that's why I'm so puzzled why the forum keeps so strongly to a small, honestly not that important, part of the customer base. after all the hardcore fans will buy the game in any case. I don't think anyone who regularly visits this board is not planning on buying the game already. Even if we didn't there will always be hardcore fans of the concept. I think people should probably take that into perspective.

*or thrive by selling a couple million in Taleworld's case but that's besides the point.

This argument just doesn't hold up anymore. The market is saturated with successful games where a competitive format is applied as a standard, from the bottom to the top. Counter-Strike, Overwatch, League of Legends, Dota, etc. are all examples where the same format of play for casual games is also used for competitive matches. What these games also have in common is MMR or a system like it, where players are grouped together in matches by their skill levels. An "average, unskilled, idiotic and useless player" is teamed up with others just like them, against a similar team. The games I listed aren't popular because they have intense top-level competition, they're popular because they offer an accessible competitive format where you have a bit of insurance against getting curb-stomped by pros. Further, because the format is the same from the bottom up, low-tier players aren't totally clueless when they watch a stream of a high-tier match.

The problem with Warband's competitive scene is that it isn't so accessible. You need to join a team, but most teams are already set or are temporary teams for a particular tournament. Matches are played by a community standard, not one that the game itself imposes. Tournaments are typically organized through the forum, so if you don't check the forum you probably never learn about them in the first place. They're also typically on a fixed weekly schedule, so you can't just pop on and play a competitive match when you get the urge. Likewise, you shouldn't put off finishing your match because you don't feel like playing it at the time. The previously mentioned games can scratch the competitive itch without any of these difficulties, and since Bannerlord will also have a matchmaking system there's hope that it will scratch the itch, too.

 

[Calamity]

The competitive scene, especially with its ridiculous elitism has probably done absolute jack to keep the M&B community alive.

^ This is what you said and I replied to that.

So your entire argument is "nuh uh,  he said it matters!", eh?

Goodness, you sure suck at this arguing thing.

1. Nobody outside of these forums gives a toss about competitive. Not on Reddit, or anywhere else. This place is an echo chamber. Calradic Capaign way outperforms you in terms of visibility, that's what draws people in.
2. Having one event in Bucharest (with no follow-up) is not a sign of success. People didn't even care about that one event.
3. You have no Twitch presence. Competitive Age of Empires 2 has a major twitch presence. Competitive Smash Bros Melee has a major twitch presence. Even Onward, a VR game with a far bigger barrier to entry, and Slap City, a niche game among niche games outdo you. You don't garner an audience, because nobody wants to see M&B played in the most boring way possible.


You guys can keep fellating each other about how much you matter, but that doesn't make it true, even if some people in the devteam share your delusions.

^ this is you going off on a tangent which has nothing to do with what I posted

1. Okay. So does Dr. Disrespect. When did I compare my channel who anyone else? I was stating facts. We stream native MP. I also appreciate Reddit, Calradic Campaign (lil spelling error there, fixed it for you) and anyone else who promotes the health of the scene.

2. I wasn't there but I saw the effort put in. For anyone who gives a lick about native MP it was a special moment.

3. Cool story. I don't know why you bring this up when my entire argument was based on you saying

The competitive scene, especially with its ridiculous elitism has probably done absolute jack to keep the M&B community alive.

You obviously have no intent on defending your original point I quoted and lack facts so you change the subject. It's obvious you don't know a single thing about our scene or anyone in it. Good day.

 

[Scarf Ace]

I HATE MULTIPLAYER 

I CAN'T READ 

 

[sleepy dragon]

Is your point more popular games are more popular?

On the contrary, I'm saying that twenty-year-old games, party games, obscure games, and even games that are technically limited to a smaller audience manage to outperform Warband when it comes to competitive visibility.
The simple fact is that people don't look at M&B and think "competitive multiplayer".

I agree with the last point. It makes it more important for TW to add competitive modes, matchmaking, and balance from competitive players if they want the game to be seen that way. I'm sure Taleworlds isn't going to abandon the casual scene but it makes sense for them to do more of a competitive push. And while the game isn't popular on twitch, the community has been active for years out of sheer passion and dedicated so much time to both running and playing in tournaments. And while the game is hard for casual players all the clans I know have been very open to helping casual players adjust to playing competitively.

 

[Scarf Ace]

*Snip*

What is it with you competitive people and not having any reading comprehension?

Look, here's my argument, please read it slowly this time.

1. I made the comparison because it shows just how incredibly tiny you are, and therefore you don't contribute to M&B's wider success. You're isolated from the rest of the M&B community.
2. Everyone who is part of your tiny sub-community cared. Great. Everyone else didn't. The rest of the M&B community didn't. That's the point.
3. I compared your competitive scene to that of other games, some considerably more obscure. The thing to point out, again, is that you haven't garnered an audience, as M&B's multiplayer is just better for other things.

This entire thread is about how competitive-focused mechanics should not affect the non-competitive side of the game, and shouldn't be so heavily emphasised. That's because doing so is sacrificing the attractive part of multiplayer for one that only the tiniest minority cares about.

 

[Orion]

So your entire argument is "nuh uh,  he said it matters!", eh?

Goodness, you sure suck at this arguing thing.

1. Nobody outside of these forums gives a toss about competitive. Not on Reddit, or anywhere else. Calradic Capaign way outperforms you in terms of visibility, that's what draws people in.
2. Having one event in Bucharest (with no follow-up) is not a sign of success. People didn't even care about that one event.
3. You have no Twitch presence. Competitive Age of Empires 2 has a major twitch presence. Competitive Smash Bros Melee has a major twitch presence. Even Onward, a VR game with a far bigger barrier to entry, and Slap City, a niche game among niche games outdo you. You don't garner an audience, because nobody wants to see M&B played in the most boring way possible.


You guys can keep fellating each other about how much you matter, but that doesn't make it true, even if some people in the devteam share your delusions.

(snip)

The simple fact is that those prize pools are tiny by modern standards (especially for a team game), and if you look at the youtube views M&B competitive has, they're absolutely tiny compared to random stream recordings for, say AoE2.
I get that you're trying, it's not working.

I gave you numbers and examples, Calamity gave you another example, and all you've given us is unsubstantiated claims about communities on external sites. Assuming you're right, is anyone surprised that a VR title has more Twitch viewers than a medieval RPG from 2010? Of course it does. VR is expensive to get into, which puts it out of reach of many people who are interested in it. All they can do is live vicariously through someone else. Newsflash, it's also one of the biggest growth sectors of the games industry, so naturally there's a lot of attention directed at it. If you want to construct a meaningful & relevant argument, find examples of other games from around the same time. How many games from 2009-2012 have had official, sponsored LANs 7 years post-release, or have large Twitch followings? How many have any kind of competitive scene at all? The only games that stand the test of time like that are classic franchises. If the closest comparison you can come up with is AoE2, go right ahead. That's flattering, more than anything.

I hope you plan to do more here than use a poorly-supported argument as a vector for calling someone a cocksucker, or insult their literacy. If you play stupid games, you will win stupid prizes. Clean it up or take a seat.

 

[sleepy dragon]

隐藏

*Snip*

What is it with you competitive people and not having any reading comprehension?

Look, here's my argument, please read it slowly this time.

1. I made the comparison because it shows just how incredibly tiny you are, and therefore you don't contribute to M&B's wider success. You're isolated from the rest of the M&B community.
2. Everyone who is part of your tiny sub-community cared. Great. Everyone else didn't. The rest of the M&B community didn't. That's the point.
3. I compared your competitive scene to that of other games, some considerably more obscure. The thing to point out, again, is that you haven't garnered an audience, as M&B's multiplayer is just better for other things.

This entire thread is about how competitive-focused mechanics should not affect the non-competitive side of the game, and shouldn't be so heavily emphasised. That's because doing so is sacrificing the attractive part of multiplayer for one that only the tiniest minority cares about.

Can you give me an example of competitive-focused mechanics affecting the non-competitive side of a game?

 

[lolbash]

The thing to point out, again, is that you haven't garnered an audience

Great job ignoring my post where I just argued this

M&B's multiplayer is just better for other things.

Spoken like someone who has never touched the multiplayer before.