Please Consider Idibil

[dajarvi]

My intention is to present a case, as in imperfect as imperfect humans are ( I do not grovel, but simply speak from a human historians stand point).  Mind my English, also, if you would.  I speak from my mind quicker than I speak from my keyboard!

Religion and human dialogue is like you and I talking to our mothers, to our fathers, our friends we've known for years.  It is part of us.  Let us consider I am a pagan and you are a Roman catholic in England at the time of Brytanwalda.  One of the things you might notice is that people as a majority still worship pagan gods.  Christianity has its presence.  I believe this.  But I do not believe that it was accepted as mainstream.  Meaning, Catholic or Catholic-Irish power was not yet wholly established at the age of Brytenwalda.  There is politics for converting...and there is faith.  The Pope's power was not centralized until the crusades.  Brytenwalda does not fit that time frame.  The old gods should be largely existent throughout the campaign.  The essence of the Roman-Christian Roman Empire was not the same throughout the British Isles at this time as it was in Italy or south of the Rhine.  Pagan faith was rampant.  If not pagan at this time, then Aryan.  Constantine was a result of Aryan Christian Germans invading into the Roman Empire. 

 

[Uhtred Ragnarson]

What are you trying to prove/say? 

 

[Dest45]

he wants the Pagan religions to play a bigger part in the mod

 

[Lurdze]

Edit: Actually, just disregard this.

 

[Shuldringrast]

Ireland and North Britan should for the most part be Pagan I would think, only areas south of the wall ( even then, excluding Saxons ) would be Christians.

 

[Idibil]

This is a very long, but Christianity by missionaries, and the possibilities for the powerful meant spread rapidly in the Dark Ages.

Furthermore, thanks to religious syncretism, traditions and pagan cults were assimilated into the Christian religion, which had the most intimate to each person with his religion also became Christian.

Ireland and the Picts, developed a particular christianity, Celtic Christianity, with very specific characteristics, but it was Christianity. Moreover, Irish missionaries were among the most prolific knew

 

[Morcant]

Even if largely influenced by paganism, most people in the lands of the Britons and Irish were christians since the 5th century. We are two hundred years later, and a large number of monasteries already exist. In the lands of the Picts, probably half of the population, especially the noblemen would have been christians aswell.

In Anglo-saxon Britain, the kings of East Anglia, Kent and Northumbria had adopted Christianity since a few generations. Means a good part of the population was christian aswell. In that part of Britain christianity was already in place when the Saxons took the power and even if it lost its importance for decades it wasn't completly destroyed.

 

[Gasket]

Even if largely influenced by paganism, most people in the lands of the Britons and Irish were christians since the 5th century. We are two hundred years later, and a large number of monasteries already exist. In the lands of the Picts, probably half of the population, especially the noblemen would have been christians aswell.

In Anglo-saxon Britain, the kings of East Anglia, Kent and Northumbria had adopted Christianity since a few generations. Means a good part of the population was christian aswell. In that part of Britain christianity was already in place when the Saxons took the power and even if it lost its importance for decades it wasn't completly destroyed.

This is correct, Christianity in the British Isles at this point was fractured, poorly understood and was highly influenced by formerly held pagan beliefs. There are tales of 'Syrian' (Celtic name for Mediterranean traders as a whole in some regions) merchants being highly amused by British interpretations of Christianity and were amazed to discover that many holy men considered Christian forces in the Byzantine Empire for example as inferior or even heretical.

The mod is fine as it is, Christianity would have been dominant but there was still little consensus as to its nature and contents. One could go as far to say that the Britons, Picts, Gaels and Anglo-Saxons all had their own interpretation of Christianity. The Saxons were obsessed with the tale of Christ triumphing over demons for instance and displayed it in various art work.

 

[herakleios]

It is difficult to judge since history is written by the winners or by Christians in this case. Historians wrote about saint and/or powerful men. So, a statement that a people was converted often just means that the chieftain and his court was converted.

However, it seems that at the beginning 7th century (Celtic) Christianity was politically by far the most influential religion throughout the British Isles. Therefore, the mod in general is fine for me. I do not look for every villages religion before owning them. So, I do not know the distribution of religions at start. Maybe few more Pictish and Germanic villages could be pagan as a concession to players who prefer paganism.

 

[Jellyfish_sammich]

Mierce is the main pagan kingdom, the only other one is Linndisware. Which in the end is realistically since Penda was the last pagan King.

 

[Uhtred Ragnarson]

It is difficult to judge since history is written by the winners or by Christians in this case. Historians wrote about saint and/or powerful men. So, a statement that a people was converted often just means that the chieftain and his court was converted.

However, it seems that at the beginning 7th century (Celtic) Christianity was politically by far the most influential religion throughout the British Isles. Therefore, the mod in general is fine for me. I do not look for every villages religion before owning them. So, I do not know the distribution of religions at start. Maybe few more Pictish and Germanic villages could be pagan as a concession to players who prefer paganism.

truth.

 

[Makememove]

The spread of christianity is fine for me; try to think through why the cristian religion, whatever interpretation people followed, was so succesfull: While many pagan beliefs praised the heroic and the outstanding, christianity was promising that even though the life on earth might be miserable, there would be an afterlife where the poor and wretched had the same opportunities as the rich. And during that time, most of the people where poor; christianity started as a slave religion in the Roman Empire. And in its beginnings, it was capable of absorbing tons of pagan beliefs as well - think of  Christmas, for example, what made it a lot easier for people to convert - there was a löot in christianity that they already knew.

So I think it is ok that most of the Island is christian; what might be changed is the fury with which particulary villages hate the pagan beliefs. As stated before, christianity took a lot from pagan religions, and it can be expected that paganism and old myth were still strong in the rural population.

 

[Untitled.]

The spread of christianity is fine for me; try to think through why the cristian religion, whatever interpretation people followed, was so succesfull: While many pagan beliefs praised the heroic and the outstanding, christianity was promising that even though the life on earth might be miserable, there would be an afterlife where the poor and wretched had the same opportunities as the rich. And during that time, most of the people where poor; christianity started as a slave religion in the Roman Empire. And in its beginnings, it was capable of absorbing tons of pagan beliefs as well - think of  Christmas, for example, what made it a lot easier for people to convert - there was a löot in christianity that they already knew.

So I think it is ok that most of the Island is christian; what might be changed is the fury with which particulary villages hate the pagan beliefs. As stated before, christianity took a lot from pagan religions, and it can be expected that paganism and old myth were still strong in the rural population.

So feasting with your gods in Valhalla is miserable? Everyone had a chance to reach Valhalla through their thoughts and actions on earth. Oh, wait, that sounds vaguely familiar
Christianity did not start as a slave religion in the Roman Empire. It started as an off-branch to Judaism which is one of the oldest religions of the world. Naturally, it would spread to other parts of the empire, but at that time it consisted of poor and rich alike already.

As for christmas... It's not really a Christian thing. Jesus was born in October or November. It was changed during Roman times to December because the pagans had already some sort of holiday at this date, and it was thought that it'd make it easier for pagans to convert (which it possible did - to a certain degree). But christmas, in the Christian sense, still had little to do with pagan beliefs. The pagans 'modified' small details of Christianity a bit to their own liking. Christians, for example, did not go around giving gifts to each other - it was a pagan thing AFAIK.

 

[herakleios]

...
So I think it is ok that most of the Island is christian; what might be changed is the fury with which particulary villages hate the pagan beliefs. As stated before, christianity took a lot from pagan religions, and it can be expected that paganism and old myth were still strong in the rural population.

This is exactly why it old beliefs were called "Paganism" by clerics.

 

[dajarvi]

This is a very long, but Christianity by missionaries, and the possibilities for the powerful meant spread rapidly in the Dark Ages.

Furthermore, thanks to religious syncretism, traditions and pagan cults were assimilated into the Christian religion, which had the most intimate to each person with his religion also became Christian.

Ireland and the Picts, developed a particular christianity, Celtic Christianity, with very specific characteristics, but it was Christianity. Moreover, Irish missionaries were among the most prolific knew

Yes, but politically.  A couple centuries after Brytanwalda time frame and you would see active persecution of pagan beliefs.  However, at this point, Christianizing was a political move, and the Pope had yet to acquire the power to enforce doctrine.  Kingdoms converted for politics, but the old ways were still widely practiced. 

 

[Spongly]

So feasting with your gods in Valhalla is miserable? Everyone had a chance to reach Valhalla through their thoughts and actions on earth. Oh, wait, that sounds vaguely familiar
Christianity did not start as a slave religion in the Roman Empire. It started as an off-branch to Judaism which is one of the oldest religions of the world. Naturally, it would spread to other parts of the empire, but at that time it consisted of poor and rich alike already.

There's no evidence that Anglo-Saxon pagans had any concept similar to Valhalla. Some sort of ancestor worship or veneration may have been practiced, but beyond that we don't know what sort of afterlife they believed in. Also, Valhalla in later Viking belief is a paradise designed for and reserved for the warrior aristocracy, not really for the ordinary "man on the farm."

 

[Makememove]

So feasting with your gods in Valhalla is miserable? Everyone had a chance to reach Valhalla through their thoughts and actions on earth. Oh, wait, that sounds vaguely familiar
Christianity did not start as a slave religion in the Roman Empire. It started as an off-branch to Judaism which is one of the oldest religions of the world. Naturally, it would spread to other parts of the empire, but at that time it consisted of poor and rich alike already.

There's no evidence that Anglo-Saxon pagans had any concept similar to Valhalla. Some sort of ancestor worship or veneration may have been practiced, but beyond that we don't know what sort of afterlife they believed in. Also, Valhalla in later Viking belief is a paradise designed for and reserved for the warrior aristocracy, not really for the ordinary "man on the farm."

That was exactly what I was referring to.

 

[aurgelmir]

So feasting with your gods in Valhalla is miserable? Everyone had a chance to reach Valhalla through their thoughts and actions on earth. Oh, wait, that sounds vaguely familiar
Christianity did not start as a slave religion in the Roman Empire. It started as an off-branch to Judaism which is one of the oldest religions of the world. Naturally, it would spread to other parts of the empire, but at that time it consisted of poor and rich alike already.

There's no evidence that Anglo-Saxon pagans had any concept similar to Valhalla. Some sort of ancestor worship or veneration may have been practiced, but beyond that we don't know what sort of afterlife they believed in. Also, Valhalla in later Viking belief is a paradise designed for and reserved for the warrior aristocracy, not really for the ordinary "man on the farm."

For the vikings atleast there were other varyingly attractive afterlives for the ordinary man. They might feast with their ancestors in the family grave or perhaps even reincarnate (thats quite speculative though) apart from going to the generally far less appealing Hel.

In any case  I think makememoves original argument that christianity was a sort of "common people religion" I think is a bit complicated. it seems to me like most conversions to christianity to have been a top-down process with kings and nobles converting first and with the church continuing to convert and co-opt the common man for sometimes centuries after as was the case with Sweden.

 

[Arkhiel]

I still don't undersant why i loose honor cause I'm pagan and honor my gods.