Playing the Violin (also, the Random Instruments Thread)

[Pharaoh Llandy]

So. Dudes. I'm far enough along now in my saxomophone studies to be happy with my progress, and am confident that I'll also be able to get up to a similar level fairly quickly with my clarinet (with a bit of input from my sax tutor, who plays both). I've now set myself the challenge of playing the violin. Why? Funny story!

Somebody at work was selling one that her guitar-playing husband bought about 3 years back, but he never really had any time to do more than a couple of lessons, so he quitsied and the violin he had sat in a room all forlorn-like until he decided to find a good home for it. Along came I, serial buyer-of-instruments (alto sax, flute, harmonica, kalimbah and as of today, clarinet (and yesterday, violin) at last count) and I thought to myself, HAY, HOW HARD CAN IT BE?

I mean, I had a guitar at one point, but my fingers were a tad too short to reach the strings without catching other strings (it was acoustic, I guess I could have gone for an electric, but meh) so I sold it. Plus, getting my head around the concept of chords was extremely confusing. Coming from a woodwind background, playing more than one note at a time was like.... WATDAFUQ???

BUT! The violin looked easier to learn and play. I base this assumption solely off the fact that the John Wilson Orchestra had a lot of violins in it when they played the Proms, and John Wilson is pretty hawt as far as orchestral conductors go. Naturally, I know bugger all about violins, but I also knew bugger all about saxomophones when I spontaneously bought one being sold at work 3 years ago, and since then I've had my second sax (which I <3), have learned the joys of playing such things as swing and old broadway songs, and have managed to tell my tutor "next term" for 2 years each time he's asked me to join the band he conducts.

Anyway, mostly rambly bit aside, I figure the chances are somebody here has played violin at some point in their lives. So I come here for tips and advice! I don't want to take lessons just yet; I'm sticking with my sax lessons for now, and over the summer (before the September term commences) I plan on focusing on the clarinet to get myself up to speed with it. So it's going to be a few months at least before I seriously consider violin lessons.

In the interim, I have bought myself these books:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0713693657/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1846090296/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I don't know how abracadabra and Tune A Day are for strings, but for woodwind they're considered excellent books for beginners to learn the basics and improve their technique. Plus, the amazon reviewers seem to suggest these are good books to start with.

I've had a look at a few fingering charts online, and have managed to play a very simple single-note piece of music (you know when you're watching a horror film and the murderer's approaching the woman with a knife, and she doesn't see him coming, and you get that high-pitched EEEE-EEEEE-EEEEE-EEEEE ? Well, that's what I've managed. Don't want to try anything more complex until I get my books) but if anybody has links to good fingering charts which aren't too difficult to interpret, I'd love to see them.

Also, I have questions:

* How often will I have to get my violin serviced?
* How often will I realistically be replacing my bow?
* Are there any bad habits/bad posture I should be aware of and try to avoid?
* On violin, do you play both chords and single notes like you do on guitar? Or just single notes?
* What is the difference between a violin and a fiddle?
* Will my left arm stop aching once it gets used to being in the upright position?
* Is it possible to play duelling banjos on the violin?
* Should I leave tuning to an expert?

A little bit of info in case it's relevant:

* The violin is the full 4/4 size
* It does not have a particular brand name. The model is made to spec in either China or Czech Rep and imported by a local music store who 'own' their own brand. They get their guys to fine-tune it and ready it for life in the UK.
* My fingers hurt

Thanks for your time. I appreciate any advice anyone can give, and please feel free to talk about random instruments here too!

 

[Orion]

Didn't know you played sax. That's awesome! I don't follow this stuff, but to my knowledge that now makes 3 of us (you, Dryvus, and I).

Violins, as I'm sure you've noticed, don't have frets like your acoustic guitar probably did. In my opinion, frets are the most important things on a guitar because I don't have the kind of finger accuracy or trained ear required for playing fretless instruments. If you don't have these things either, don't fret ( ), with enough practice they'll come. I wasn't patient enough for that, but you may be.

* How often will I realistically be replacing my bow?

From what little I remember of playing a viola long, long, long ago, this varies depending on how well you maintain your bow. IIRC (you'll want to do some research on your own to confirm/deny, this is all from my memory of about 14 years ago), you don't keep it taught when it's stored. You also rosin it after tightening and before playing. Don't tighten it so much that it flexes your bow, but not so loose that you can't lightly pull it across the strings and produce a tone. Again, you'll want to verify this. Hopefully somebody (Monty, maybe?) can confirm/deny what little I remember in this regard. I'm not sure what to look for when deciding whether or not you need a whole new bow.

* What is the difference between a violin and a fiddle?

Who's playing it. Charlie Daniels plays the fiddle, Lindsey Stirling plays the violin.

* Is it possible to play duelling banjos on the violin?

Probably. Dueling Banjos is basically a little bluegrass picking tune, and so is Foggy Mountain Breakdown. If Foggy Mountain Breakdown can be played on the violin fiddle, then I'm sure dueling banjos can. Just be aware, you will no longer be playing the violin. You will be playing the fiddle.

* My fingers hurt

Deal with it. You'll get callouses soon enough. Happens with any stringed instrument, I believe.



[Edit]

I think this answers your dueling banjos question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL9Ryd_OTa8

If you like this particular style of music, you might want to look at Foggy Mountain Breakdown. I'm convinced it can be played on any instrument.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Playing Scales and Arpeggios with increasing speed is a good warmup.

Right now I know 5 notes: G D A E (natch) and the E on the D string (I have no idea if this has a special violin name... in sax terms it's just Low E). I think I'm a little far off scales and arpeggios. Still trying to get my first finger on the right place on the D string to hit E, and not catch surrounding strings when playing D/E (for some reason, I find this string the most awkward to clearly get)

Also, once you're comfortable with it, playing Rock around the Clock is a good way to keep your fingering accurate, and is also an excellent way to work out how to use the bow rhythmically and fitting to the notes.

Noted... for the distant future 

You can very easily tune it yourself if you have the ears for it, that wasn't ever a problem for me.

Aight, my violin book agrees with you. I'll stick to manual tuning for now.

Bad habits: Learn to hold the bow correctly. At the beginning it seems awkward and can hurt after long playing, but if you want to play properly you do need to know how to hold it and change holds.
Also, making sure to hold the violin properly at your neck and shoulder. Doing this wrong can tire your neck out during playing.

My Tune A Day book has some handy diagrams which I'm attempting to adhere to. Holding the bow correctly feels VERY weird but then the violin also feels absurdly light after playing nothing but sax for 3 years (then again, my clarinet fees absurdly light too)

Your left arm will stop hurting yes, though you may sometimes get pain in your elbow if you play for too long, at least that's how it was for me.

Okie dokie. I'll keep my practicing to a minimum to begin with, and slowly build up. I'll leave my violin practice till the end of my twice weekly practice sessions... so I can get a sore elbow after my lip gets sore from my reeds 

You usually play single notes flowing into each other, but depending on what you're playing there are also times when you have the bow on two or sometimes even three strings simultaneously, as far as i know though it is not too common (though not exceedingly rare either).

Good to know. I think I could manage this. I think my brane would implode if I had to play a lot of chords. Although, I do very well on my sister's Rock School Star Band Game Thing on the Xbox whenever she brings her guitars over for a jammin' session. If only real music was colour-coded and easy!

Your fingers will get used to it quite quickly.

I can see me having to keep my left-hand nails short for this. Poo.

Didn't know you played sax. That's awesome! I don't follow this stuff, but to my knowledge that now makes 3 of us (you, Dryvus, and I).

Yah but from what I remember seeing (of Dryvus 'cheese' pictures, which I need industrial strength bleach for) he plays Tenor. I play alto, mostly swing and jazz, a bit of blues. One day I'd like a tenor, but I'm put off by the fact that there's not as much music out there for it. I guess it'll probably be my next instrument after I've caught up with the clarinet and made a bit of headway with the violin. Because hey, by then I'll be used to playing in a lot of flats (stupid clarinet  -__-) and I'll have the fingering down pat.

Violins, as I'm sure you've noticed, don't have frets like your acoustic guitar probably did. In my opinion, frets are the most important things on a guitar because I don't have the kind of finger accuracy or trained ear required for playing fretless instruments. If you don't have these things either, don't fret ( ), with enough practice they'll come. I wasn't patient enough for that, but you may be. Someone else plays sax, too. Can't for the life of me remember who... it was an IRC conversation and alcohol was involved.

To be honest, I didn't notice anything about my guitar. You might has well have just said "I'm sure you've noticed but acoustic guitars don't have orange-flavoured chocolate monsters living inside their brane-space." After I realised my stubby hobbit fingers were never going to be good for guitar, I promptly put it away and never looked back.

From what little I remember of playing a viola long, long, long ago, this varies depending on how well you maintain your bow. IIRC (you'll want to do some research on your own to confirm/deny, this is all from my memory of about 14 years ago), you don't keep it taught when it's stored. You also rosin it after tightening and before playing. Don't tighten it so much that it flexes your bow, but not so loose that you can't lightly pull it across the strings and produce a tone. Again, you'll want to verify this. Hopefully somebody (Monty, maybe?) can confirm/deny what little I remember in this regard. I'm not sure what to look for when deciding whether or not you need a whole new bow.

I've kept the bow relaxed when in storage, last thing I wanna do is snap or bend the bow wood. I've got some rosin, but by the looks of the block, I'd guestimate the guy who had the violin was using it directly on the strings, rather than the bow. Unless the bow hair is capable of gouging out clefts of rosin.

I honestly have no idea how much 'too tight' is when playing, and this is what concerns me most. If I don't tighten it enough, the bow wobbles all over the other strings. I don't know if it's too tight, though, when I crank it up a bit.

Who's playing it. Charlie Daniels plays the fiddle, Lindsey Stirling plays the violin.

Fairy nuff!

Deal with it. You'll get callouses soon enough. Happens with any stringed instrument, I believe.

I thought that might be the case.

I think this answers your dueling banjos question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL9Ryd_OTa8

If you like this particular style of music, you might want to look at Foggy Mountain Breakdown. I'm convinced it can be played on any instrument.

Haha cool, I'll listen to that the next time I plug my PC speakers in.

 

[König]

I've never played the violin before, but I did try guitar a while back and it didn't really work out (If I remember correctly it, ironically, also had something to do with cords and fingers).

Anyway, I'm learning the bagpipe now. It seems to be going fairly well, and I quite enjoy it. Right now I'm at a level where I can play Scots Wha Hae reasonably well on the practice chanter, though it is a fairly simple tune. Anyone else learning/play the bagpipe (of any kind) here?

 

[Orion]

Noted... for the distant future

It'S not really the too distant future, since you can probably work your way up to it quite quickly, comparatively speaking.

Monty's right. A little proper musical education goes a long way towards learning new instruments. There are a lot of things you only have to learn once, and with 2 years of tutoring you've probably covered quite a bit of it.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Eh, I think I've had 3 years of sax lessons now. Half of it was re-learning old stuff as I used to read music as a wee kid. But string instruments are sooooo much more complicated

 

[romandude]

I tried out the violin. It was awful.

 

[African]

Violin is for pussies.

Spoiler: instrument for real men

 

[Orion]

<instrument for real men>

Whew. Dodged a bullet there, Llandy!

 

[African]

Takes balls to play the horn. Even for women.

 

[Orion]

That woman on the harp would have been an excellent casting choice for the wicked witch of the west, I think.

And somebody needs to get that conductor a toupee.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

<instrument for real men>

Whew. Dodged a bullet there, Llandy!

Tell me about it! I actually had to go and check my underpants just then, in case I'd grown some dangling unmentionables!

Violin is for pussies.

Spoiler: instrument for real men

French horn may be the single most difficult brass instrument to play, but you know what french horn players can't do? Jaunty 2/2 march beats. Or swing. Or have ANY sort of fun. Meanwhile, the trombone and sax players are sat on the other side of the orchestra going "HAHA, SILLY FRENCH HORN PLAYERS, YOU SO RESTRICTED IN YOUR ABILITY TO PLAY JAUNTY 2/2 RHYTHMS AND SWUNG QUAVERS, HAHA!"

So yeah, whilst I think French Horns look nice and you get major bragging points for actually being able to play one, I think I'll stick to the instruments you can actually have some fun with.

Correction: You were awful.

Ooh, and Monty scores a direct hit!

 

[Patchouli Knowledge]

* On violin, do you play both chords and single notes like you do on guitar? Or just single notes?

You physically can't play chords on a violin. If a piece marks three notes as being played at the same time, it really means to hit the first and then very quickly move to the others. That said, double stops are quite common on violin.

* How often will I have to get my violin serviced?

Never if you take care of it.

* How often will I realistically be replacing my bow?

Ditto.

* Will my left arm stop aching once it gets used to being in the upright position?

If it's uncomfortable, you're not holding it right. Right being whatever position is comfortable for you. I've seen some very good violinists hold their instrument jammed into their armpit, so whatever works for you is all right.

* Should I leave tuning to an expert?

You may have to at first. It's not quite like a guitar, which any idiot can tune. Still, it's not that hard and it is something you'll look silly not knowing after a while.

 

[African]

French horn may be the single most difficult brass instrument to play, but you know what french horn players can't do? Jaunty 2/2 march beats. Or swing. Or have ANY sort of fun. Meanwhile, the trombone and sax players are sat on the other side of the orchestra going "HAHA, SILLY FRENCH HORN PLAYERS, YOU SO RESTRICTED IN YOUR ABILITY TO PLAY JAUNTY 2/2 RHYTHMS AND SWUNG QUAVERS, HAHA!"

So yeah, whilst I think French Horns look nice and you get major bragging points for actually being able to play one, I think I'll stick to the instruments you can actually have some fun with.

There's no point in arguing about what we personally find fun, but for me very little comes close to being as fun as performing something like this with a large symphony orchestra.

Can't play swing?

I will admit though, between violin and sax you definitely have a lot  more fun repertory covered. Stan Kenton used horns to great effect, but very few big bands use them and I was always disappointed to miss out on that stuff as a student. As far as classical music is concerned though, any position in a horn section is way more interesting than being anything but concertmaster in the violins.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

<snip>

Cheers! I'll try not to do with my violin what I did with my brand new sax; think I'd already locked the case and then pick it up by the handle. Doh!

Can't play swing?

Eh, it's playable, but it doesn't sound... right. The sound the instrument makes is muted, which might be fine for some jazz pieces, but overall doesn't sound defined or relaxed enough. Trombones or trumpets... much better for jazz.

 

[dion1195]

just some random question, but are violins expensive, or could I get one for a decently low price?

 

[Patchouli Knowledge]

That depends on the quality of the instrument and where you get it; I know someone that has a violin they got for $30 and I know someone that has one that cost them $5000.

Generally they are considerably more expensive than, say, a guitar.

 

[dion1195]

That depends on the quality of the instrument and where you get it; I know someone that has a violin they got for $30 and I know someone that has one that cost them $5000.

Generally they are considerably more expensive than, say, a guitar.

all right, thanks

I want to learn to play an instrument, and I love the way a violin can sound, so I guess I'll see some instructor for some more information about it.

 

[zanyfeet]

I mean, I had a guitar at one point, but my fingers were a tad too short to reach the strings without catching other strings (it was acoustic, I guess I could have gone for an electric, but meh) so I sold it. Plus, getting my head around the concept of chords was extremely confusing. Coming from a woodwind background, playing more than one note at a time was like.... WATDAFUQ???

BUT! The violin looked easier to learn and play.

I learned to play guitar after learning to play violin, and I personally found guitar much easier than violin. However, at that point I had been playing stringed instruments for a number of years which helped somewhat. Violin is certainly not the easiest instrument to learn to play.

* How often will I realistically be replacing my bow?

While you shouldn't ever have to replace the bow, you will have to get the bow re-haired occasionally. When you're not playing, loosen it up and it'll be fine.

 

[Bromden]

Whattheysaid: Pros tune their own violins, the bow is a lasting piece, it just needs to be re-haired sometimes, you won't get a professional violin for under a couple of thousand bucks, but you can get one that is decent for practice for less, you can get a frame-thing for the violin that will make it easy on the shoulder when playing, and yes, you have to get used to all the unique pains of the instrument. Also, you might want to play contemporary pieces first, that way no one will recognize if you misplay some (or all) tunes.   Trust me with these, I play the rackbox in a professional orchestra.

As far as classical music is concerned though, any position in a horn section is way more interesting than being anything but concertmaster in the violins.

That mostly depends on the piece.