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Playing Singleplayer Makes Multiplayer Feel Like Molasses.

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EbdanianAdmiral

Knight at Arms
Why does the melee combat, and really all infantry gameplay, feel like it was designed for a much higher movement speed than multiplayer is currently set to? Playing singleplayer and custom battles *feels* so much better than Multiplayer, exclusively because movement speed for both the enemies and your character are at a setting above snail.

Any time this is brought up, its quickly shouted down by people saying "Faster movement makes it easier to kite and back out of fights!" Except this is flat out wrong. The faster the forward movement speed, the more difference there is going to be between running forward and backpeddling. Faster movement makes it easier to catch players who are backing up, not the other way around. In terms of archers easily kiting with faster movement speed, that is also a pretty ignorant thing to say. Archers being able to kite so easily has nothing to do with the overall pace of movement, but rather the relationship between infantry movement speed and archer movement speed. At the moment, archer movement speed is extremely close to infantry movement speed, making it very easy for archers to stay away from melee. In some extreme scenarios, such as an Aserai Veteran without a shield running from a Khuzait Spearmen with a shield, the Archer is actually faster than the Infantry. Speeding up infantry would help alleviate this problem, not contribute to it.

Taleworlds has absolutely nothing to lose by trying this out in a beta patch. Worst case scenario, they just revert the changes based on community and internal feedback. At the moment it is not exactly a controversial opinion to state that infantry combat is really not the greatest, especially when compared to the other classes. It should be priority #1 to figure out how to make infantry a better class in ways other than exclusively relying on throwing weapons.
 

Mabons

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Might actually make weapons more lethal too because the speed bonuses will be slightly higher.

Last I heard they were slowing down movement across the board though?
 

EbdanianAdmiral

Knight at Arms
Might actually make weapons more lethal too because the speed bonuses will be slightly higher.

Last I heard they were slowing down movement across the board though?

They are, as well as removing a lot of throwing weapons. Basically if you are an infantry player...Im sorry
 

Cri11e

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Combat tweaks should be the same in singleplayer and multiplayer so people who play the previous have a easier time when they try multiplayer, right?
And one who mains multiplayer can feel like his abillities isn't getting ruined or off-set when he plays singleplayer. Quite vital if you ask me.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
They are, as well as removing a lot of throwing weapons. Basically if you are an infantry player...Im sorry
They said a very small adjustment; going to wait and see what it is like before I give judgement. Afterall they also said they were working with the community combat patch as the core of the changes...
 

EbdanianAdmiral

Knight at Arms
They said a very small adjustment; going to wait and see what it is like before I give judgement. Afterall they also said they were working with the community combat patch as the core of the changes...

I honestly dont see how the heavy infantry could get any slower. They are already painful to play as. Footwork basically does not exist compared to warband. Like I said, Its molasses.
 

Alyss

Grandmaster Knight
I mean the game is extremely slow except for cav. Tbh it feels like when you are on a horse the game is on fastest and when you are on foot it’s on slowest.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
I love going from the full customization in singleplayer to the barren customization in multiplayer also.
 

Fietta

buıʇʇǝs uoıʇɔǝɹıp ʞɔɐʇʇɐ
Marquis
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Naa, like I've said in your threads which are very similar to this one, infantry seems awfully slow because everything is awfully fast. Decrease the speed of everything else, and it's fine. Warband's movement speed is slower than Bannerlords.
 

EbdanianAdmiral

Knight at Arms
Warband's movement speed is slower than Bannerlords.

Warband's swings, weapon lengths, momentum and animation are all tweaked around roughly the speed a character moves in multiplayer. You wont see basic infantry from warband singleplayer who are twice as fast as the multiplayer counterparts. You do see this in Bannerlord. The games core movement and animations are not designed for movements being as slow as they are. You can easily test this by loading up a custom battle in singleplayer and fighting on foot. The singleplayer movement lends itself much better to the combat flow and the animations than the the current multiplayer speeds do.

Unlike Warband, Bannerlord used some pretty advanced motion capture tech to create its animations. Since every single aspect of the animation is catered to a more normal human running and walking speed, the actual speed in game needs to also match that. The fact that an irl human could speedwalk faster than Multiplayer Characters can run heavily contributes to the unnatural feeling of movement. Once you notice it the running animations are ruined for you. In order for the Multiplayer players to move at the speeds assigned, they had to slow down the jogging animations which their mocap suits had created. Turn on whatever sport fancies you and set the playback speed to .5. The players running will look very similar to Bannerlord characters running. Its in uncanny valley.

If you insist on Bannerlord footwork being faster paced than Warbands we can have a discussion about how that just isnt true. Simple tasks like switching and weaving are painful in Bannerlord compared to Warband. The slower movement speed is a direct cause of the lower skill ceiling for infantry movement.

Like I said, there is absolutely no downside to proportionately increasing movement speeds and doing a combat test. It seems like an extremely silly hill to die on. Actively going against the testing of potential improvements just to reinforce and defend the advice you have likely given early in development very much goes against the concepts of Early Access and involving the players in the development process.
 
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Fietta

buıʇʇǝs uoıʇɔǝɹıp ʞɔɐʇʇɐ
Marquis
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Simple tasks like switching and weaving are painful in Bannerlord compared to Warband.

That's completely untrue, you've got so much momentum that when you do weave, you're always weaving 2 metres between people. In warband, when you weave your opponent is literally always hugging the left and right of you, you weave, turn, block, weave. In bannerlord, you can easily escape a weave and continue fleeing (if you want to) or just weave around the opponents, once you weave you're always metres away from the players - I remember playing in DM, I was able to block a 4 v 1 by just constant spinning, jumping and weaving, I could never pull that off in Warband. I don't understand how you believe that it's 'painful', it's almost certainly easier (unless you get kicked). I find it super easy to survive in BL to the point it's laughable, you always have the chance to flee, weave or just spam right swing as you're rotating between them (until you get kicked). Pretty sure the MP patch doesn't decrease overall speed, but just A & D movement so you're not constantly rotating around people (which is brilliant).

Yes, heavy infantry is slower than the majority, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's slower than Warband's, it's just annoying because everything else is lightening quick. I already know that the animations were created with a certain speed in mind, I literally made that argument in your other thread, but that literally means absolutely nothing, like what point does that prove? It's not like the silly movement animations actually contribute to the overall movement speed or effects your play, they're just goofy and would eventually be changed when the right speed has been made. The movement speed was originally set for the animations to be at that pace, but was decreased by popular demand, so you saying 'no downside to proportionately increasing movement speeds and doing a combat test.', makes no real sense because it has already been tried and tested and was too fast (which was the reason for its decrease anyways).
 
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EbdanianAdmiral

Knight at Arms
I remember playing in DM, I was able to block a 4 v 1 by just constant spinning, jumping and weaving, I could never pull that off in Warband.

Well yeah. Having massive shield hitboxes for melee will do that. Just because you have a massive invisible wall doesn't mean the footwork is in a good spot.

That's completely untrue, you've got so much momentum that when you do weave, you're always weaving 2 metres between people. In warband, when you weave your opponent is literally always hugging the left and right of you, you weave, turn, block, weave.

Every time speed is brought up, you immediately shift it to a conversation about acceleration. You need to learn they are two different things. A unit can have straight line speed that is too slow and acceleration that is fast simultaneously. Furthermore, the argument that speeding units up will somehow contribute to abusive weaving is bull****. If a player has faster movement speed, that means he can react to someone switching EASIER. Not harder?? Put it this way. If you are moving at your top speed, lets make that arbitrary number 60. If someone tried to turn around and run from you, or switch off of you, it will be much easier to do so if the movement speed is 40 rather than 60 because of how basic acceleration works. It takes something longer to go from 0 to 60 than it does to go from 0 to 40. The extra speed gives players a larger window of top speed while the other person accelerates in order to catch them. The ability to go faster actually makes it easier to deal with kiting. If you say "Well that doesn't matter because units can go from 0 to 60 or 0 to 40 in about the same amount of time", you are admitting you have an issue with acceleration, and not speed.

I already know that the animations were created with a certain speed in mind, I literally made that argument in your other thread, but that literally means absolutely nothing, like what point does that prove? It's not like the silly movement animations actually contribute to the overall movement speed or effects your play, they're just goofy and would eventually be changed when the right speed has been made.

Im talking about the basic running animations. Have you ever seen anyone run before? Like outside? Jogging? The Bannerlord running animations look fine in singeplayer but are slowed down to match the speed of Multiplayer. It looks terrible. It looks so terrible that it makes the infantry experience feel uncomfortable and sluggish.

The movement speed was originally set for the animations to be at that pace, but was decreased by popular demand, so you saying 'no downside to proportionately increasing movement speeds and doing a combat test.', makes no real sense because it has already been tried and tested and was too fast (which was the reason for its decrease anyways).

I guess you forgot, but I took part in the Alpha. You are talking out of your ass here. The movement speed has always been absurdly slow. The primary adjustments that have been made have been the speed of shock troops compared to the other infantry. I agree, shock troops used to be very fast compared to other infantry. Massive outliers in a class system that was horrendously unbalanced on launch should not be used as justification to completely hinder every other infantry class. Even if you were not wrong here, the parameters regarding movement have been tweaked so much since Alpha and Beta that it still would be worth it to try again.

In conclusion, stop welding acceleration and speed at the hip. Stop acting like an increase in one demands an increase to the other. You can have any issues with change of direction that you want, but they do nothing to discredit the merit of a speed increase. Stop misrepresenting requests to better support your own argument.
 
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Fietta

buıʇʇǝs uoıʇɔǝɹıp ʞɔɐʇʇɐ
Marquis
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I guess you forgot, but I took part in the Alpha. You are talking out of your ass here. The movement speed has always been absurdly slow.

If you took part in the alpha, you'll understand that the movement speed was much faster than it was now, though exacerbated by ice skating. I mean it's even more evident considering the original animations fit the troops well at the start of the alpha. Which was why it was decreased, lol.

Well yeah. Having massive shield hitboxes for melee will do that. Just because you have a massive invisible wall doesn't mean the footwork is in a good spot.

OK but what if I told you that it was? My footwork was really good in that fight, especially considering my shield broke and I still powered through the ending 1v2.

Every time speed is brought up, you immediately shift it to a conversation about acceleration. You need to learn they are two different things. A unit can have straight line speed that is too slow and acceleration that is fast simultaneously. Furthermore, the argument that speeding units up will somehow contribute to abusive weaving is bull****. If a player has faster movement speed, that means he can react to someone switching EASIER. Not harder?? Put it this way. If you are moving at your top speed, lets make that arbitrary number 60. If someone tried to turn around and run from you, or switch off of you, it will be much easier to do so if the movement speed is 40 rather than 60 because of how basic acceleration works. It takes something longer to go from 0 to 60 than it does to go from 0 to 40. The extra speed gives players a larger window of top speed while
Im talking about the basic running animations. Have you ever seen anyone run before? Like outside? Jogging? The Bannerlord running animations look fine in singeplayer but are slowed down to match the speed of Multiplayer. It looks terrible. It looks so terrible that it makes the infantry experience feel uncomfortable and sluggish.

Arguing this point is pointless, there's an obvious difference, and at the moment I'm talking about base speed and not acceleration (which is a different argument all together) you should base your own argument from the points I provided on this thread.
 
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EbdanianAdmiral

Knight at Arms
If you took part in the alpha, you'll understand that the movement speed was much faster than it was now, though exacerbated by ice skating. I mean it's even more evident considering the original animations fit the troops well at the start of the alpha.

The movement in Alpha was terrible because the ice skating was terrible. Its unfair to just assume faster speeds are bad because the entire game was bad. We will never know what a speed increase looks like without the skating and sliding unless we test it again.

Arguing this point is pointless, there's an obvious difference, and at the moment I'm talking about base speed and not acceleration (which is a different argument all together) you should base your own argument from the points I provided on this thread.

Ok, so if you are arguing against foot speed, why does every one of your counterpoints relate directly to acceleration? You are still not separating the concepts. They are two different things. We could easily see a patch that both decreased acceleration and increased top speed. I would consider that a great patch.

OK but what if I told you that it was? My footwork was really good in that fight, especially considering my shield broke and I still powered through the ending 1v2.

The conversation is about the footwork in game as a whole, not your specific footwork. I would assume that an extremely experienced infantry with multiple tournament wins and thousands of hours would have better footwork than people who comparatively have a very low amount of Mount&Blade experience. Would be tragic otherwise.
 

Footbeard

Sergeant
WBNWVC
This thread makes me sad at how many good points there are here. The SP and MP experiences should feel the same and should feel good. Currently MP feels pretty lackluster for a fair few reasons but I think the main reason (excluding exacerbated block delay) is the movement speed. SP feels responsive and snappy, MP does feel a lil like treacle or molasses.

I know it's somewhat controversial to suggest sprinting in M & B but hear this out. The sprint key still serves as zoom if you have a projectile weapon equipped and has <x> cooldown after switching to melee. Melee characters have a sprint function, unbound by stamina, that is faster than max runspeed but slower than horse movement. This would allow for melee units to catch kiting archer units. It would be a good idea to restrict actions possible during sprint (crouch, interact, kick, pickup, draw/sheathe)
 

Chaoslian

Veteran
This thread makes me sad at how many good points there are here. The SP and MP experiences should feel the same and should feel good. Currently MP feels pretty lackluster for a fair few reasons but I think the main reason (excluding exacerbated block delay) is the movement speed. SP feels responsive and snappy, MP does feel a lil like treacle or molasses.

I know it's somewhat controversial to suggest sprinting in M & B but hear this out. The sprint key still serves as zoom if you have a projectile weapon equipped and has <x> cooldown after switching to melee. Melee characters have a sprint function, unbound by stamina, that is faster than max runspeed but slower than horse movement. This would allow for melee units to catch kiting archer units. It would be a good idea to restrict actions possible during sprint (crouch, interact, kick, pickup, draw/sheathe)
Though i don't think that this will happen, i really like the idea. Would make playing as infanterist a bit more interessting
 
The combat is slow so people can take advantage of the stance system. In my opinion, they will have to slow it down to 50% before the regular player can use it.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
[...] The SP and MP experiences should feel the same and should feel good. Currently MP feels pretty lackluster for a fair few reasons but I think the main reason (excluding exacerbated block delay) is the movement speed. SP feels responsive and snappy, MP does feel a lil like treacle or molasses. [...]
+1
fypAmty.gif
 
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