Player caravan mission

[nijis]

These are some thoughts on the caravan missions from Somebody from another thread. I'll try to address them tomorrow, and some of my own ideas on balance.

Caravan fighting effectiveness - with the turn direction limited, caravan masters are unable to get at enemies directly behind them. There is also limited reach in front, especially when the camels seem to be higher off the ground than regular horses. Again, guards can't actually shield them for this reason. I'd keep the crossbows though, it's better than punching the air when they run out of jarids for certain factions
Loot - it does seem slightly unrealistic for it to pop out from a dead caravan master when the chest is bigger than him. Maybe make it an attached scene prop, or model it on the mount? Then you'd run into the problem of not getting drops from the caravan if you only kill the mount, or dropping loot from dismounted caravan masters. I understand why dismounted caravan masters don't despawn, so I think agent_get_attached_scene_prop is probably the best solution (making loot act like flags on the lower back). This would also lead to the ability to have goods of differing values instead of just generic "loot"
Loot mechanics - again, unrealistic for other caravan members to just ignore the piles of treasure on the ground. For defending players, it should be possible to retrieve loot (give it a 20 second use timer?) so as to deny it to the attackers. There shouldn't be a reward for doing so, unless you also code in the ability for players to carry loot toward the destination (or dump it on another caravan master). This is probably simulated by the loot disappearing though, but it would be more interactive if later caravans stopped at the actual loot to safeguard it until it disappears. Guards unattached to caravans should be doing this in the first place instead of fading away. On the other hand, the loot certainly shouldn't disappear while you're looting it. Extend the lifespan of the scene prop by the use timer if necessary. This could become problematic if you just have somebody spamming use on every piece of loot on the ground while other players pick it up, so perhaps each piece of loot should negatively affect on the raiders with agent_set_use_speed_modifier and/or agent_set_speed_modifier?
Healing - horses don't benefit from the magic carpet, nor do players benefit from the destination on the other side (understandable, since it prevents spawn-camping)
Retinues - they all go toward the map border while trying to fade away (agent_start_running_away?), often leading their enemies with them. I have no idea if the new retinue the player spawns with should be discounted when there were clearly bots of the same type still alive, as they are fairly cheap for their value.
Maybe you should make a new thread for commenting on each game-mode so we don't clutter up this one.

 

[Somebody]

Did another few escort missions, and with player heavy cav retinues the archers were less problematic. The balance is slightly better with 2 players that run escort, one to intercept and kite enemy cav while the other couches the infantry/archers. This is, of course only possible when you have one cluster of caravans to accompany, although we somehow managed to create a second clump and get some of those across. I'm not quite sure if enemy raiders spawn on a timer or only when existing raiders get killed, but it would be interesting to see how that scales. Also did some raiding against escorted caravans - it was more enjoyable than regular caravan raiding, although players tended to focus on trying to kill one another.

 

[nijis]

I'd keep the crossbows though, it's better than punching the air when they run out of jarids for certain factions

Pure sword and shield might be the best option. I think I want to have a single weapon combo that works across cultural troop groups. The jarids do seem to get their share of raider kills, though.

I think agent_get_attached_scene_prop is probably the best solution (making loot act like flags on the lower back).

That's a good idea. I'll experiment with that.

unrealistic for other caravan members to just ignore the piles of treasure on the ground.

I agree, but too much complex and naturalistic AI takes a while to code. I'd need to prioritize "retrieve loot" and then have troops pick it up and change behavior.

It's good to know what bot behavior is an immersion-breaker and what's not, though.

horses don't benefit from the magic carpet

That's worthwhile to fix.


Thanks also for the screenshot of the raider caught in the tree. It's very difficult for me to control where bots go on that map, as it's too big for an AI mesh. So I'll probably need to adjust the tree collision mesh.

Because the trunks and branches Indian trees are twisted a bit and lower to the ground -- which is a look I want to keep -- it's easy for the to trap bots.

 

[Ariel]

Alright, so I will try to describe my experience, mostly a solo one, and then give my two thoughts:

So, we start from one edge of the map, going to the other edge, bandits spawn from the remaining edges.
We spawn with 10 caravans that form more or less a convoy and we must protect them from the waves of enemies.
When you are alone at a low level, with only light cavalry, this mission is particularly hard, it's only with 5 militem that it become doable, your retenue now being able to help you clean the enemy and stay alive for more than half of the travel, with maybe one or two death.
It takes about 13 minutes for the first convoy to get near the end of the map, but let's say it take about on half of the mission time to get it there, which means, if all goes well you can get 20 caravans to the end (10000 point and 8000 gold).
But usualy I have lost one or two caravans, that have respawned at the begining, and try the long travel on their own, mostly to their demise.

Most of the times, when you arrive at the end, you are alone, and most of the escort of the caravans are dead or wounded. That's when this big wave that camp at the exit launch it's attack, and most of the time, that means the slaughter of my convoy, sometimes just at the end of the map. Even if I manage to kill the infantry, the enemy cavalry gets my caravans, and if I aggro the cavalry and lead them far away, the infantry manage to kill the caravans (not always but still). And the waves of enemy still spawns from the other sides of the map...
So, most of my caravans dies and respawn, but it's very rare that they respawn at the same time, which means that my second convoy of carvans is a long dispersed line, that really hard to defend.
By about that time, If I haven't managed to get 3 or 4 caravans to the end, I know I am going to lose the point score, the only thing I can do is to kill the most ennemies possible, without caring that much for the safety of my caravans. Specially since the last ennemy wave have already respawned, and I know the convoy is to heavily dispersed to stand a chance against them.

But my beef with this mission is that, even if I fail more or less miserabily, I still get some 50% mission completion, even if I didn't get any caravans to the other side, just because me and my guys killed a lot of ennemies, we win by total score (am I correct on this one?). That kinda defeat the point of the baggage escort mission, doesn't it?
(Plus it's really costly )

My suggestion would be to:

• Make the safe arrival of a caravan the only score that matter.(20 caravans arrivals=100% completion)
  
• Reduce the difficulty for a caravan to get to the exit (by reducing the numbers of the last wave and without respawn)
• add some challenge by spawning more ennemy troops once 4,5 caravans have arrived

I also wouldn't mind if the caravans weren't to respawn all alone... Like if they could respawn 3 by 3 or so, that be great...


Anyway, those are just my personal observation from my experience, don't hesitate to say it if you had another one.

See you all in the game.

 

[jepekula]

Well, it is a battle aswell, and even if you don't get much caravans through, but annihilate their groups, their bunch is still horribly crippled.
Although I do agree that the caravans should be more important, they are after all the supplies of the attacking army, yes?

 

[Ariel]

Yeah, you'r right, maybe the kiling score should somewhat be taken into acount...

But the way I see it right, I go to my good lord of Vermandois:
"Great news my Lord, I haven't accomplished any of your objectives, but I killed a lot of the rabbles that took your precious supplies, can I have my command now?"
And he would say:
"Great news Lord Karling, you've earned your place at the first rank of my army, by the way, your armor was in the supply that you let go away..."


I think the amount of people you killed should be taken into account for a bonus after the mission completion, like, if you did more than expected, your lord reward you for your zele, but the goal still should be to complete the mission...
At least that's how I see it.

 

[kongxinga]

I like to report that the magic carpet on Khurasan's caravan raid map is missing at the end zone.