I ported the whole P&B txt -> MS by hand. This includes all errors and idiosyncrasies and weird **** - this is a direct translation of the troops.txt, party_templates.txt, item_kinds1.txt into module system: https://github.com/bryndmyg/mbwms/zipball/pikeandblade
Here's the diff that you will need to make it actually compile (at least in native). Use of the patch should be self-explanatory, but if not, the lines with the minus signs are the original lines which need to be replaced with the lines with the plus signs: https://github.com/downloads/bryndmyg/mbwms/pnb_extra-native.patch
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I lied, there are a few trivial changes, like the faces which I couldn't be bothered to manually hand-check. One non-trivial change would be that I kept the original mercenaries where they were, and moved the added ones down. While this is great for diffing and all that, it creates the problem of creating a different hirable set of mercenaries than in the .txt version. Will be fixed in later versions.
My version of P&B (fixed, improved, blah blah). If this ever comes, do not rely on savegame compatibility with the original P&B:
Coming soon
Compile that **** twice, then tell me about any errors (first time to generate IDs, which I didn't include for my sanity). Otherwise it should work.
Support will be considered. I know it's on Github, but please don't fork it or anything without telling me - I'm very prone to rebasing my repo, which would create hell for anybody else who's cloned my repo.
tldr the spoilers: Both Aeon221 (original creator) and Kogara are on indefinite leave, and have given anybody license to steal their ****, so that's exactly what I'm doing. Even if the project doesn't progress, at least you have the module files to do the same.
Original post intro:
The rest of it is here: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=110114.0
Ignore the rest for now, just my notes.
The state of Native:
Why try to improve Pike and Blade?
Planned "improvements"
Implemented "improvements":
Notes for myself:
Questions I have:
1. What is the rationale behind raising strength over ironflesh, or vice versa?
2. Does +- 1 point in Agility really make that much of a difference in troops?
3. How do you feel about lost weapon proficiencies, such as militia that had 60 X-bow proficiency but knights with 0?
4. How do I improve Khergits - i.e. make them more than **** on a moving stick? PBOD should take care of this
5. Exactly HOW is map speed calculated? Like, would it be appropriate to apply the tf_mounted flag to troops with no riding skill? Or is there some breakpoint at which reliance on athletics should be superseded by tf_mounted? - not a gamebreaker, will just fix it so it makes sense
6. Does savegame compatability really matter? Or can I add in all mercenaries before the mercenaries_end tuple, as well as move the added faction troops close to their factions?
7. Does knows_common really matter for troops without riding?
8. How are skill/attribute points assigned to regular troops?
Here's the diff that you will need to make it actually compile (at least in native). Use of the patch should be self-explanatory, but if not, the lines with the minus signs are the original lines which need to be replaced with the lines with the plus signs: https://github.com/downloads/bryndmyg/mbwms/pnb_extra-native.patch
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I lied, there are a few trivial changes, like the faces which I couldn't be bothered to manually hand-check. One non-trivial change would be that I kept the original mercenaries where they were, and moved the added ones down. While this is great for diffing and all that, it creates the problem of creating a different hirable set of mercenaries than in the .txt version. Will be fixed in later versions.
My version of P&B (fixed, improved, blah blah). If this ever comes, do not rely on savegame compatibility with the original P&B:
Coming soon
Compile that **** twice, then tell me about any errors (first time to generate IDs, which I didn't include for my sanity). Otherwise it should work.
Support will be considered. I know it's on Github, but please don't fork it or anything without telling me - I'm very prone to rebasing my repo, which would create hell for anybody else who's cloned my repo.
tldr the spoilers: Both Aeon221 (original creator) and Kogara are on indefinite leave, and have given anybody license to steal their ****, so that's exactly what I'm doing. Even if the project doesn't progress, at least you have the module files to do the same.
Original post intro:
Short Description:
The primary goal, more important than anything else, is to develop infantry into a more versatile and interesting arm of the various faction armies without ditching the faction themes. In other words, Rhodoks are still Rhodoks, just more so!
While each of the factions has received new units, the number has been kept low. Units have only been added if they remained true to the faction's theme (like the Rhodok Pikemen and Boardmen, who jointly fill separate elements of the old Rhodok Spearman's role) while filling a new and interesting niche (like the light infantry skirmishers of the Nords, or the offensively potent but poorly armored Rhodok Macemen), or if they provided an essential balacing element (like the Sarranid and Swadian Squires, offensively potent t5 2h sword footmen who are now the only path on the road to the t6 Swadian Knights and Mamelukes). No fluff units, new textures or scripts have been added.
This mod is intended for players who like using lots of cav and wish the other factions were a legitimate threat as opposed to a speed bump, or for players who enjoy fighting with infantry armies, but dislike how under-developed, weak and tactically uninteresting they feel in Vanilla -- in other words, people who think "hide on a hill and fire arrows at them" shouldn't be the last word in infantry tactics.
Feel free to download, try, and tell me it's ****!
The primary goal, more important than anything else, is to develop infantry into a more versatile and interesting arm of the various faction armies without ditching the faction themes. In other words, Rhodoks are still Rhodoks, just more so!
While each of the factions has received new units, the number has been kept low. Units have only been added if they remained true to the faction's theme (like the Rhodok Pikemen and Boardmen, who jointly fill separate elements of the old Rhodok Spearman's role) while filling a new and interesting niche (like the light infantry skirmishers of the Nords, or the offensively potent but poorly armored Rhodok Macemen), or if they provided an essential balacing element (like the Sarranid and Swadian Squires, offensively potent t5 2h sword footmen who are now the only path on the road to the t6 Swadian Knights and Mamelukes). No fluff units, new textures or scripts have been added.
This mod is intended for players who like using lots of cav and wish the other factions were a legitimate threat as opposed to a speed bump, or for players who enjoy fighting with infantry armies, but dislike how under-developed, weak and tactically uninteresting they feel in Vanilla -- in other words, people who think "hide on a hill and fire arrows at them" shouldn't be the last word in infantry tactics.
Feel free to download, try, and tell me it's ****!
Ignore the rest for now, just my notes.
The state of Native:
Ideal faction themes, at least in Native:
- The Swadian army is built around the Knight. Lore dictates that the Swadian specialty is the heavy cavalry.
- The Sarranid army is built around the Mameluke. Lore dictates that the Sarranid specialty is medium cavalry.
- The Khergit army is built around the horse. Lore dictates that the Khergit specialty is light cavalry.
- The Vaegir army is built around nothing really. Lore dictates that the Vaegir specialty is archery.
- The Nord army is built around the Huscarl. Lore dictates that the Nord specialty is heavy infantry.
- The Rhodok army is built around the Board Shield. Lore dictates that the Rhodok specialty is the pike.
One can immediately see a few problems for the infantry-lover - three of the six factions end with cavalry as their highest-tier unit. Only Huscarls can unit for unit match either the Swadian Knight or the Sarranid Mameluke - off the battlefield, they are slightly disadvantaged by not recieving mounted map movement speed. With AI being so bad at using pikes, the Rhodoks take to defending their centers, which is about the only thing they do well, thanks to Rhodok Sharpshooters and Sergeants disarmed of their polearms. Vaegir archers suck, while the other end-tier Vaegir unit is a Knight, which also sucks. Khergits, the only faction with only horsemen, fail in almost every way. Off their horses, i.e. in a siege, they melt in the face of any other unit, like Zerglings to Firebats. On their horses, only the Lancer represents anything close to usefulness, while the Horse Archer fails even to annoy the enemy.
So here we have a revised list of factions in reality:
- Swadians stay the same.
- Sarranids stay the same.
- Khergits are crap.
- Vaegirs are crap.
- Nords are built around taking castles.
- Rhodoks are built around defending castles.
In the face of this, it would be best to roll heavy with Swadians and Sarranids, and leave the Nord and Rhodoks at home - cavalry on the field, infantry at castles. While this might have been the original intent of Taleworlds, this hardly constitutes balance.
- The Swadian army is built around the Knight. Lore dictates that the Swadian specialty is the heavy cavalry.
- The Sarranid army is built around the Mameluke. Lore dictates that the Sarranid specialty is medium cavalry.
- The Khergit army is built around the horse. Lore dictates that the Khergit specialty is light cavalry.
- The Vaegir army is built around nothing really. Lore dictates that the Vaegir specialty is archery.
- The Nord army is built around the Huscarl. Lore dictates that the Nord specialty is heavy infantry.
- The Rhodok army is built around the Board Shield. Lore dictates that the Rhodok specialty is the pike.
One can immediately see a few problems for the infantry-lover - three of the six factions end with cavalry as their highest-tier unit. Only Huscarls can unit for unit match either the Swadian Knight or the Sarranid Mameluke - off the battlefield, they are slightly disadvantaged by not recieving mounted map movement speed. With AI being so bad at using pikes, the Rhodoks take to defending their centers, which is about the only thing they do well, thanks to Rhodok Sharpshooters and Sergeants disarmed of their polearms. Vaegir archers suck, while the other end-tier Vaegir unit is a Knight, which also sucks. Khergits, the only faction with only horsemen, fail in almost every way. Off their horses, i.e. in a siege, they melt in the face of any other unit, like Zerglings to Firebats. On their horses, only the Lancer represents anything close to usefulness, while the Horse Archer fails even to annoy the enemy.
So here we have a revised list of factions in reality:
- Swadians stay the same.
- Sarranids stay the same.
- Khergits are crap.
- Vaegirs are crap.
- Nords are built around taking castles.
- Rhodoks are built around defending castles.
In the face of this, it would be best to roll heavy with Swadians and Sarranids, and leave the Nord and Rhodoks at home - cavalry on the field, infantry at castles. While this might have been the original intent of Taleworlds, this hardly constitutes balance.
Why try to improve Pike and Blade?
Pike and Blade, by Aeon221, was an attempt to remedy the cavalry >>>> infantry problem explained above. I personally feel that although this was a good attempt and a step in the right direction, some goals have not been accomplished, such as staying true to the faction themes. Vaegirs are no longer the archers of lore, nor anything really, and the Rhodok pike has not been improved.
Other problems exist, like the slight homogenization of all factions, brought about by bringing skirmishers to every faction, and zweihander-wielders to every faction save the Rhodoks.
Other problems exist, like the slight homogenization of all factions, brought about by bringing skirmishers to every faction, and zweihander-wielders to every faction save the Rhodoks.
Planned "improvements"
I am in the process of trying to fix the problems mentioned in "Why try", but it is dawning on me that changing the troops around will not be sufficient. Here are some changes that I am thinking about implementing outside of module_troops.py:
1. Formations (PBOD) - Pikemen should at the very least be able to form a box or tight ranks.
2. Pike bracing (PBOD) - This really should have been done on Taleworlds' end - if any sort of "transfer of energy" function existed in the game engine, a pike would be rendered useless without a brace.
Inside the troops file:
1. The main problem I see with skirmishers (units with throwing weapons and high athletics) in a few factions is that they will ultimately be dropped in favor of any end-tier unit. Mamelukes, Knights, Huscarls all rank higher in my mind than any fictional god-tier skirmisher. Rhodoks having skirmishers almost doesn't make sense. Vaegirs having skirmishers makes sense, to supplement the fragile archers. Khergit skirmishing should all be incorporated into the heavy cav line.
2. Men with zweihanders in every faction? The Squire will be replaced as the T5-transitional unit, as that was not a great solution to solving the cavalry problem in the first place. I do not believe that men whose lives have depended on a shield will pick up a giant sword instead, the usefulness of which is greatly reduced thanks to an arrow in between the eyes resulting from a missing shield. Sarranids having separate berserker lines would be appropriate. If I were to commit blasphemy and tone down the Huscarls a lot, then it would be good for the Nords too. Vaegirs I'm on the fence about. Rhodoks definitely not. Khergits, no idea.
3. Seriously, hide boots for end-tiers? wtf
4. The name Manhunters seems like a laughable oxymoron in this mod - will revert the whole slaver tree back to Native. I doubt men with clubs can hunt wild rabbits effectively, let alone SEA RAIDERS or TUNDRA BANDITS with MAIL ARMOR and AXES and BOWS and everything else that these poor slaughter-feed men don't have.
5. Cleavermen. No.
6. Nord skirmisher line needs renaming.
7. Switch Man-at-arms name with Squire name (swadia). See note 2.
8. Give Vaegirs T6 archer. Put Champ somewhere else.
1. Formations (PBOD) - Pikemen should at the very least be able to form a box or tight ranks.
2. Pike bracing (PBOD) - This really should have been done on Taleworlds' end - if any sort of "transfer of energy" function existed in the game engine, a pike would be rendered useless without a brace.
Inside the troops file:
1. The main problem I see with skirmishers (units with throwing weapons and high athletics) in a few factions is that they will ultimately be dropped in favor of any end-tier unit. Mamelukes, Knights, Huscarls all rank higher in my mind than any fictional god-tier skirmisher. Rhodoks having skirmishers almost doesn't make sense. Vaegirs having skirmishers makes sense, to supplement the fragile archers. Khergit skirmishing should all be incorporated into the heavy cav line.
2. Men with zweihanders in every faction? The Squire will be replaced as the T5-transitional unit, as that was not a great solution to solving the cavalry problem in the first place. I do not believe that men whose lives have depended on a shield will pick up a giant sword instead, the usefulness of which is greatly reduced thanks to an arrow in between the eyes resulting from a missing shield. Sarranids having separate berserker lines would be appropriate. If I were to commit blasphemy and tone down the Huscarls a lot, then it would be good for the Nords too. Vaegirs I'm on the fence about. Rhodoks definitely not. Khergits, no idea.
3. Seriously, hide boots for end-tiers? wtf
4. The name Manhunters seems like a laughable oxymoron in this mod - will revert the whole slaver tree back to Native. I doubt men with clubs can hunt wild rabbits effectively, let alone SEA RAIDERS or TUNDRA BANDITS with MAIL ARMOR and AXES and BOWS and everything else that these poor slaughter-feed men don't have.
5. Cleavermen. No.
6. Nord skirmisher line needs renaming.
7. Switch Man-at-arms name with Squire name (swadia). See note 2.
8. Give Vaegirs T6 archer. Put Champ somewhere else.
Implemented "improvements":
1. Fixed some faction settings on some troops
Notes for myself:
1. I don't really buy into the Rhodok = zerg analogy that Aeon221 makes. Being Zerg with only three "hatcheries" (towns) and less villages to recruit from than the rest makes no sense. Thematically, the Nord should be the Zerg, as in an overwhelmingly offensive, rushy presence, but they have the same problems as the Rhodok.
2. Stat standardization?
3. "Sitting on a hill and annihilating enemies from range is just not good gameplay," says Aeon, but in the current state of the mod, F1-F3 with pure Knights or Mamelukes is still a viable option. Huscarls as well. Probably all three of these units will unit-for-unit decimate any T6 Vaegir Archer.
4. Moving Huscarl to T5 and rebalancing him to work there while keeping cav at T6 would be interesting.
2. Stat standardization?
3. "Sitting on a hill and annihilating enemies from range is just not good gameplay," says Aeon, but in the current state of the mod, F1-F3 with pure Knights or Mamelukes is still a viable option. Huscarls as well. Probably all three of these units will unit-for-unit decimate any T6 Vaegir Archer.
4. Moving Huscarl to T5 and rebalancing him to work there while keeping cav at T6 would be interesting.
Questions I have:
1. What is the rationale behind raising strength over ironflesh, or vice versa?
7. Does knows_common really matter for troops without riding?
8. How are skill/attribute points assigned to regular troops?
