If you'll play regularly, train CKO, support points you agree with, field large armies and lower your overall morale because of it, even 10 in Persuasion will not allow you to have all companions - it's a simple fact and various exploits and artificial tricks will not change this. Topic starter didn't ask how much perverted he must become to have all companions, so answer is NO, Persuasion 10 will not grant you such ability but it's a good skill nonetheless, just not worthy of prioritizing in development. If you're fighting constantly then companions are content but if you'll have pause in warfare then they'll start to try to leave you - it's inevitable in general.
...even 10 in Persuasion will not allow you to have all companions - it's a simple fact and various exploits and artificial tricks will not change this.
If you'll play regularly, train CKO, support points you agree with, field large armies and lower your overall morale because of it, even 10 in Persuasion will not allow you to have all companions - it's a simple fact and various exploits and artificial tricks will not change this. Topic starter didn't ask how much perverted he must become to have all companions, so answer is NO, Persuasion 10 will not grant you such ability but it's a good skill nonetheless, just not worthy of prioritizing in development. If you're fighting constantly then companions are content but if you'll have pause in warfare then they'll start to try to leave you - it's inevitable in general.
Did you even read my last message?
10 in persuasion actually will be a panacea to companions leaving issue since it will turn regular penalty points increase into 0.
And if you're playing a normal game (that's just my definition of "normal", ofc) - that is: don't rob caravans or villages, don't retreat from battles, don't leave your troops behind, don't amass unnecessarily large army (even if you field 300 or 350 soldiers - or even up to 500 in extreme situations - your morale will be high enough in times of war, but certainly it will drop in times of peace if you don't garrison your troops), don't let you party starve, buy good and diverse food for your troops, pay wages in time etc., etc. - situation will be fine by default. If party morale is, let's say, 80, you will still have 57 "points" (apart from 45 points already spent on slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties) that can be "spent" on any emergencies before NPC's morale gets critical.
"Perverted" is not a word to describe this gameplay. I'd rather say it's the word to describe the gameplay which is the opposite of this one. You have to be "perverted" to make companions leave, not to make them stay if your persuasion skill is 10.
As for CKO training - 1 companion (a friend of the one sent to train CKO) can always be sent away for the time of his friend's absence. And since it will reduce the number of companions in a party, this will even give a start to a regular, every-24-hour drop in penaltiy points, provided the main character has 10 in persuasion.
As for prioritizing - if a player wants to avoid companions' leaving attempts as much as possible and still use all 20 of them, he/she, on the contrary, should prioritize investing in persuasion since only level 10 of this skill will stop accumulation of penalty points.
There is another important thing, which I forgot to tell. When one companion complains on another, you should always support him (i.e., the one who complains) or always support another one. You should not change this line for different companions pairs. In other words, everyone should get the same amount of likes and dislikes from player.
I'll not argue anymore - it is difficult to proove such things even with screenshots.
Supporting moronic points in fightings is a trick, you simply cannot do this if you're sane and honest. To run off the food is a pretty common thing unless you always keep excessive amount in your inventory which is not very covenient. Participating in a fight ONLY to make your ready to leave companions happy is a trick. If you want to play instead of worrying about your companions, their "bubble" and other boring stuff then they will be leaving you from time to time and there's no need to get mad about it - they'll join you after a little vacation anyway.
bobknight, sher, it becomes boring to argue with you. Anyway, the method of keeping in party all 20 companions is described here in enough detail, so "those who have ears, let them hear" .
... for a bad leader.
Personally, I hardly ever had problems with food. Especially if you have several walled fiefs and can virtually spam baggage trains.
sher said:
Participating in a fight ONLY to make your ready to leave companions happy is a trick.
Never done that. Planning&leading an army of an adequate size is enough. If it's war and plenty of enemies are running around, I'll bring many troops but will not have a lack of morale. If it's peace, I just don't take more than my companions plus like 20-30 CKO sergeants with me. This way, low party morale is never an issue for me.
However, when one companion is training CKO, only his friend try to leave, other companions are stable. And when trainer returnes, his friend also calms down and stops asking to leave. This is also my game experience, not a speculation.
I second this.
My companions never ask to leave as long as party morale is fine, ratio 2 enemies / 1 friend is maintained and I don't upset them with robbing villages and other stuff like that.
As I said before, farewell dialogue will never trigger as long as companion's morale is 20 or higher.
Now let's dig some Native code and see how it is calculated:
Doing calculations backwards, at the point "(val_sub, ":troop_morale", ":personality_grievances")," NPC's morale should be >-23.
Party morale - slot_troop_morality_penalties - slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties > -23 - this is the final equation.
slot_troop_morality_penalties value increase when:
1) "Your objection is noted. Now fall back in line." +10
2) Another case of NPC's objections (I'm not sure what it is): +25 after "Your opinion is noted." dialogue option is selected.
3) An "objectionable_action" is committed. The change varies but you are notified by "@{s4} looks upset." message.
It decreases in the following situations:
1) After a successful persuasion attempt (see my previous message) it is halved
2) Over time. Every 24 hours slot_troop_morality_penalties increases or decreases as it is multiplied by 90/x where X = 100 - number of companions in a party + persuasion skill (which, btw, I haven't seen before, and it proves that Sirg is right about persuasion of 10 helping to keep companions since 90/(100-20+10)=1 which means slot_troop_morality_penalties does not increase).
3) It turns to 0 when a companion leaves a party.
Conclusion 1: when persuasion is 10 and none of "objectionable action" of any sorts are committed, you can have 20 companions in your party, and yet slot_troop_morality_penalties value will not accumulate => will not lead to farewell dialogue in the long run.
Now let's take a look at slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties:
1) It decreases/increases over time the same way as slot_troop_morality_penalties (*90/x).
2) It turns to 0 when a companion leaves a party.
3) Every 24 hours, unless conflict solution "shut up you both" is chosen, a companion will get +5 for every enemy, that was valued higher than him/her (i.e. if I say to companion X complaining about companion Y "Companion Y is a valuable member of the party", I will value companion Y higher than companion X in their conflict), to slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties. And if dialogue options were chosen carefully, every companion has only 1 enemy which is prioritized over him/her.
At the same time slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties will be multiplied by 9/10 if a companion has a friend in the party.
Simple math shows that if slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties has a value of 45 or higher, every following increase + 5 will be compensated by the 9/10 decrease.
4) After a successful persuasion attempt (see my previous message) it is halved
5) Two times in a game a companion gets +5 to slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties after he/she complains to you about one of his enemies. That gives us 10 in total.
Conclusion 2: when persuasion is 10, 1 friend in a party is enough to compensate for any increases in slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties after it reaches a value of 45.
Conclusion 3: As you remember, the equation Party morale - slot_troop_morality_penalties - slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties > -23 for companions to never start *****ing. When persuasion is 10 and no "objectionable actions" are committed, slot_troop_morality_penalties will have a value close to 0 (some of slot_troop_morality_penalties points will accumulate during the time that you have 20 companions but not enough persuasion yet, but they eventually drop to 0 or a value close to it as a result if successful persuasion attempts or companions leaving since both lead to decrease in slot_troop_morality_penalties). slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties practically uses 45 points. Any accumulated value higher than this will eventually drop to 45 if your persuasion skill is 10.
Alright. Let's add these values to the equation.
Party morale - 0 - 45 > -23 => Party morale > 22 or better yet: Party morale - any extra accumulated penalty points > 22
If this equation stays true, persuasion is 10, every companion has 2 enemies and 1 friend in the party and you don't commit any "objectionable actions", companions will not try to leave.
Alright, you did the math! Not that I understand much of it, .
What I do get is, as long as you don't commit fouls and can keep your morale naturally above a certain value (22 or 45?), the companions will not leave as long as you.... support one companion over another for each companion? Or do you refuse to support either? I'm not entirely certain what you mean, sorry.
Seems like this information has the potential to unlock a very interesting form of play. Thank you Sirg for telling us and thanks Leonion for the math. Leonion, could I trouble you to explain exactly how to keep all 20 companions indefinitely step by step?
(...)
Alright, you did the math! Not that I understand much of it, .
What I do get is, as long as you don't commit fouls and can keep your morale naturally above a certain value (22 or 45?), the companions will not leave as long as you.... support one companion over another for each companion? Or do you refuse to support either? I'm not entirely certain what you mean, sorry.
Seems like this information has the potential to unlock a very interesting form of play. Thank you Sirg for telling us and thanks Leonion for the math. Leonion, could I trouble you to explain exactly how to keep all 20 companions indefinitely step by step?
It's actually even possible to run with disliking companions without persuasion 10, as long as morale is high (leadership) and you know whom to support against whom (support every companion against one and not the other). I've never tried it with all companions though. In native, I usually go with a full set and an additional pair. I invite the additional pair fairly late though, when leadership is high.
67. The formula is Party morale - any extra accumulated penalty points > 67
I corrected that message now...
My brain must have temporarily shut down when I was writing this. I could feel that something didn't add up, but only several minutes ago one of PoP players drew my attention to the fact that it totally slipped my mind that there are 4 conflicts for each companion and he/she can get points to slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties not only "actively" (when he/she is the one processed by the script), but also passively (when his/her enemies are processed), and 4 conflicts, if 2 of them are supported for and 2 of them are supported against this specific companion, will lead to +10 to slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties every 24 hours.
mrbunnyban said:
the companions will not leave as long as you.... support one companion over another for each companion? Or do you refuse to support either?
For the best outcome, you need to be consistent in your actions and not avoid solving companion conflicts (the "I don't have time for your petty dispute. Do not bother me with this again." option which will result in every companion getting +12 points to slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties every 24 hours). If you, for example, always use an option "X is a valuable member of this company", this will result in every companion getting +10 points to slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties every 24 hours. The same result can be achieved if you always choose "Tell X you have my support in this." So, basically, you always have to support someone, but make sure that each companion gets 2 "likes" and 2 "dislikes".
mrbunnyban said:
Leonion, could I trouble you to explain exactly how to keep all 20 companions indefinitely step by step?
1) Hire them all.
2) Resolve all their conflicts correctly.
3) Don't do things that upset them.
4) Get you persuasion to 10.
5) Make sure party morale never drops below 67 (the higher, the better).
Initially they may try to leave because of some accumulated penalty points, but eventually they will stop doing it after these points drop to a normal level.
1) Hire them all.
2) Resolve all their conflicts correctly.
3) Don't do things that upset them.
4) Get you persuasion to 10.
5) Make sure party morale never drops below 67 (the higher, the better).
Initially they may try to leave because of some accumulated penalty points, but eventually they will stop doing it after these points drop to a normal level.
Right you are . 20 companions are 20 immortal soldiers with elite armor and weapon. And in PoP 3.7+ we can boost them with qualis potions. Such squad can easily beat an average lord.
The only problem is with the friend of the companion who trains CKO. However, there is a quite good solution:
Leonion said:
As for CKO training - 1 companion (a friend of the one sent to train CKO) can always be sent away for the time of his friend's absence. And since it will reduce the number of companions in a party, this will even give a start to a regular, every-24-hour drop in penaltiy points, provided the main character has 10 in persuasion.
67. The formula is Party morale - any extra accumulated penalty points > 67
I corrected that message now...
My brain must have temporarily shut down when I was writing this. I could feel that something didn't add up, but only several minutes ago one of PoP players drew my attention to the fact that it totally slipped my mind that there are 4 conflicts for each companion and he/she can get points to slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties not only "actively" (when he/she is the one processed by the script), but also passively (when his/her enemies are processed), and 4 conflicts, if 2 of them are supported for and 2 of them are supported against this specific companion, will lead to +10 to slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties every 24 hours.
mrbunnyban said:
the companions will not leave as long as you.... support one companion over another for each companion? Or do you refuse to support either?
For the best outcome, you need to be consistent in your actions and not avoid solving companion conflicts (the "I don't have time for your petty dispute. Do not bother me with this again." option which will result in every companion getting +12 points to slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties every 24 hours). If you, for example, always use an option "X is a valuable member of this company", this will result in every companion getting +10 points to slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties every 24 hours. The same result can be achieved if you always choose "Tell X you have my support in this." So, basically, you always have to support someone, but make sure that each companion gets 2 "likes" and 2 "dislikes".
mrbunnyban said:
Leonion, could I trouble you to explain exactly how to keep all 20 companions indefinitely step by step?
1) Hire them all.
2) Resolve all their conflicts correctly.
3) Don't do things that upset them.
4) Get you persuasion to 10.
5) Make sure party morale never drops below 67 (the higher, the better).
Initially they may try to leave because of some accumulated penalty points, but eventually they will stop doing it after these points drop to a normal level.
Thank you Leonion. I wish I pushed my INT to 30 so that I can get 10 persuasion. I guess its something to work towards.
Hrm. Don't do things which upset them.. at all? Does that mean I have to absolutely avoid getting the "too many deaths in battle" which upsets some companions? That sounds pretty challenging.
Hrm. Don't do things which upset them.. at all? Does that mean I have to absolutely avoid getting the "too many deaths in battle" which upsets some companions? That sounds pretty challenging.
Of course, it is almost impossible to avoid such things. Disappointed companion may try to leave, but you can convince him to stay (if persuasion attempt fails you may just load your previous save). Also companion's disappointment is not forever. Eventually his moral will grow up to 20+ and he will calm down. It is almost the same situation as a frustration of the companion whose friend is on a mission (training CKO or else).
After disappearing of an irritant factor, companion's moral will eventually normalize and he will stop try to leave.
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