Persuasion 10 = all companions?

mrbunnyban

Recruit
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Someone mentioned in passing that having Persuasion 10 allows the player to keep all the companions who will stay in spite of complaining. Can someone confirm if this is true? While 10 points into persuasion sounds like a big investment, it does sound intriguing to have 20 immortal followers.
 

Leonion

Master Knight
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Not really. There are 2 steps on the way to companion saying goodbye:

Step 1. Companion's intention to leave. It has nothing to do with persuasion. It is only affected by companion's morale (it should be above 20 for "I wanna leave" dialogue to never start). As long as you have all 20 companions in you party (or any other combination of companions when there is no single companion that has 2 enemies but 0 friends), companions will never decide to leave provided that you also keep general party morale high and don't give your companions any additional reasons for leaving (such as robbing villages, retreating from battles and whatever else they don't like you doing).
So at this step you can have 0 persuasion yet do just fine.

Step 2. Persuading a companion not to leave. No persuasion will be high enough to guarantee 100% success rate. At 10 persuasion you will still have 13% chance that a companion will leave.
 

Phoss

Squire
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You can start with 9-11 in Persuasion if you want. Then you don't have to worry about it for the rest of the game and don't have to put points in CHA.
 

mrbunnyban

Recruit
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Leonion said:
Not really. There are 2 steps on the way to companion saying goodbye:

Step 1. Companion's intention to leave. It has nothing to do with persuasion. It is only affected by companion's morale (it should be above 20 for "I wanna leave" dialogue to never start). As long as you have all 20 companions in you party (or any other combination of companions when there is no single companion that has 2 enemies but 0 friends), companions will never decide to leave provided that you also keep general party morale high and don't give your companions any additional reasons for leaving (such as robbing villages, retreating from battles and whatever else they don't like you doing).
So at this step you can have 0 persuasion yet do just fine.

Step 2. Persuading a companion not to leave. No persuasion will be high enough to guarantee 100% success rate. At 10 persuasion you will still have 13% chance that a companion will leave.
Thanks for the response. I'm glad you cleared that up cos I would have been VERY disappointed if I had started a new game and found it not to be true the hard way.
 

NicotiN

Knight at Arms
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Nothing gives all compaions, there is a compainion bubble if you are interested. But you can have about 12 companions or keep sending some of them to gather support and rotate them.
 

Sirg

Veteran
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NicotiN said:
Nothing gives all compaions, there is a compainion bubble if you are interested.
No, this is wrong. Look how it works. Every succesful attempt of persuasion companion not to leave (keep in mind, that attempt of persuasion may fail even with 10 in this skill), gives bonus to his moral, and this bonus depends on character's persuasion skill. And here is the clue: if persuasion=10, succesful persuasion of companion not to leave gives him such bonus, that his moral become > 20 and this value dosent decrease less than 20 if friend of this companion is in the party. And if moral>20, companion doesnt even try to leave (and no bubble).

If characters persuasion skill is less than 10, succesful persuasion also gives the companion moral bonus, however his moral will be decreasing. When morale is less than 20, companion try to leave again.

So, if persuasion=10 and all companions are in the party, and every companion knows his friend, there aren't attempts to leave. If you send a companion on mission (training CKO, for example), his friend is trying to leave, until sent companion returns in the party.

I played one game party with 20 companions and 10 persuasion, and companions didn't try to leave (when all 20 were in the party and every companion knew his friend in the party). You may believe me or not - it is your own bussiness, I just explained my game experience :smile:.
 

mrbunnyban

Recruit
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Sirg said:
NicotiN said:
Nothing gives all compaions, there is a compainion bubble if you are interested.
No, this is wrong. Look how it works. Every succesful attempt of persuasion companion not to leave (keep in mind, that attempt of persuasion may fail even with 10 in this skill), gives bonus to his moral, and this bonus depends on character's persuasion skill. And here is the clue: if persuasion=10, succesful persuasion of companion not to leave gives him such bonus, that his moral become > 20 and this value dosent decrease less than 20 if all two friends of this companion are in the party. And if moral>20, companion doesnt even try to leave (and no bubble).

If characters persuasion skill is less than 10, succesful persuasion also gives the companion moral bonus, however his moral will be decreasing. When morale is less than 20, companion try to leave again.

So, if persuasion=10 and all companions are in the party, and every companion knows all two his friends, there aren't attempts to leave. If you send a companion on mission (training CKO, for example), both his friends are trying to leave, until sent companion returns in the party.

I played one game party with 20 companions and 10 persuasion, and companions didn't try to leave (when all 20 were in the party and every companion knew his 2 friends in the party). You may believe me or not - it is your own bussiness, I just explained my game experience :smile:.
Whoawhoawhoa what? Sorry, have a bit of trouble understanding what you wrote. I'm very interested in what you're saying because I hope it is true but have issues.

Each companion has only 1 friend, not two. They also have two enemies iirc. That is what you meant to say, not 2 friends, right?

Also, why doesn't the morale decrease when you have persuasion 10? From your explanation, Persuasion 10 gives a good chance to give the morale boost to >20 when the companion complains, but there's no reason for morale to stay there? "his moral will be decreasing" still applies? Isn't that a problem, eventually you'll fail the persuasion check and the companion will leave?
 

Sirg

Veteran
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mrbunnyban said:
They also have two enemies iirc. That is what you meant to say, not 2 friends, right?
Sorry, sorry, sorry - it was a deep night after a quite hard day, when I wrote this, plus English is not my native  :roll:, so I deserve an indulgence  :oops:. Of course, there is one friend for each companion. I'll correct my mistake. However, the rest of the information is correct.
mrbunnyban said:
Also, why doesn't the morale decrease when you have persuasion 10?... Persuasion 10 gives a good chance to give the morale boost to >20 when the companion complains, but there's no reason for morale to stay there?
This is how it works, don't ask me why: I think, it is just coded so. Persuasion 10 is a really magic value, and if you convince a companion not to leave, using persuasion skill 10, his moral doesn't fall less than 20 (of course, if his friend is in the party and the companion knows about him - this is necessary).
 

sher

Baron
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With 10 it's quite possible to have almost all, except 2-3 at a time. It helps to develop them faster but nothing worthy of sacrifice. I usually have 10 in this skill since it helps with other minor things, you have decent starting value and 2 points through book and achievement so... You will not be able to guarantee them not leaving at all times in any case.
 

Sirg

Veteran
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sher said:
You will not be able to guarantee them not leaving at all times in any case.
Actually, you will. As long as persuasion is 10, 20 companions are in the party and everyone of them knows his friend, they just don't ask to leave.
 

Leonion

Master Knight
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Sirg said:
if persuasion=10, succesful persuasion of companion not to leave gives him such bonus
Persuasion does not affect morale bonus. It is only used to determine the success or failure of persuasion attempt.

Here is a piece of Native code (which I'm pretty sure is the same in PoP) that is responsible for this:
[anyone, "companion_quitting_persuasion", [ #condition starts
                (store_random_in_range, ":random", -2, 13),
                (store_skill_level, ":persuasion", "skl_persuasion", "trp_player"),
                (le, ":random", ":persuasion"), #condition ends
                    ],
  "Hm. When you put it like that, I suppose I can stay a while longer, see if things improve.", "close_window",
  [ #consequences start
                (troop_get_slot, ":morality_penalties", "$map_talk_troop", slot_troop_morality_penalties),
                (val_div, ":morality_penalties", 2), #always divided by 2 regardless of anything
                (troop_set_slot, "$map_talk_troop", slot_troop_morality_penalties, ":morality_penalties"),

                (troop_get_slot, ":personalityclash_penalties", "$map_talk_troop", slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties),
                (val_div, ":personalityclash_penalties", 2), #always divided by 2 regardless of anything
                (troop_set_slot, "$map_talk_troop", slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties, ":personalityclash_penalties"), #consequences end
      ]],
 

Sirg

Veteran
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Leonion said:
Persuasion does not affect morale bonus. It is only used to determine the success or failure of persuasion attempt.
Maybe I was wrong, saying that moral bonus from convincing companion to stay in party depends on persuasion - it is not so important. Companion's moral doesn't fall less than 20 after such convincing (if persuasion=10) - that is important.
 

sher

Baron
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Sirg said:
Actually, you will. As long as persuasion is 10, 20 companions are in the party and everyone of them knows his friend, they just don't ask to leave.
Negative. And someone is always busy training CKO. It's not some _ideas_ - it's a long practice with Persuasion 10 characters.
 

Sirg

Veteran
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sher said:
It's not some _ideas_ - it's a long practice with Persuasion 10 characters.
I played entire party with 20 companions and persuasion 10, so I have a long practice too.
sher said:
And someone is always busy training CKO.
Yes. And this is the only problem.

However, when one companion is training CKO, only his friend try to leave, other companions are stable. And when trainer returnes, his friend also calms down and stops asking to leave. This is also my game experience, not a speculation.
 

sher

Baron
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Sirg said:
However, when one companion is training CKO, only his friend try to leave, other companions are stable. And when trainer returnes, his friend also calms down and stops asking to leave. This is also my game experience, not a speculation.
I have different situation in pure PoP without any tweaks. They're constantly asking to leave and sometimes do. Actually constant asking is much bigger issue (irritating) than not having few companions out of full 20 crew.
 

bobknight

Sergeant at Arms
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Sirg said:
NicotiN said:
Nothing gives all compaions, there is a compainion bubble if you are interested.
No, this is wrong. Look how it works. Every succesful attempt of persuasion companion not to leave (keep in mind, that attempt of persuasion may fail even with 10 in this skill), gives bonus to his moral, and this bonus depends on character's persuasion skill. And here is the clue: if persuasion=10, succesful persuasion of companion not to leave gives him such bonus, that his moral become > 20 and this value dosent decrease less than 20 if friend of this companion is in the party. And if moral>20, companion doesnt even try to leave (and no bubble).

If characters persuasion skill is less than 10, succesful persuasion also gives the companion moral bonus, however his moral will be decreasing. When morale is less than 20, companion try to leave again.

So, if persuasion=10 and all companions are in the party, and every companion knows his friend, there aren't attempts to leave. If you send a companion on mission (training CKO, for example), his friend is trying to leave, until sent companion returns in the party.

I played one game party with 20 companions and 10 persuasion, and companions didn't try to leave (when all 20 were in the party and every companion knew his friend in the party). You may believe me or not - it is your own bussiness, I just explained my game experience :smile:.
This isn't true. I have been playing 10 persuasion build with 20 companion for the last 1.5k hours I have played with PoP. They will attempt to leave, you will have a high chance to convince them to stay. Each friend a companion have will cancel out one enemy, but each companion has TWO enemies and only ONE friend. They will always attempt to leave.
 

Sirg

Veteran
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sher said:
I have different situation in pure PoP without any tweaks.
I didn't use tweaks too.
bobknight said:
This isn't true. I have been playing 10 persuasion build with 20 companion for the last 1.5k hours
I can only assume, that  companions haven't identify their friends yet. It requires quite a lot of playing time and battles.
bobknight said:
Each friend a companion have will cancel out one enemy, but each companion has TWO enemies and only ONE friend. They will always attempt to leave.
It is just your game experience against my.

There is another important thing, which I forgot to tell. When one companion complains on another, you should always support him (i.e., the one who complains) or always support another one. You should not change this line for different companions pairs. In other words, everyone should get the same amount of likes and dislikes from player.

I'll not argue anymore - it is difficult to proove such things even with screenshots.

 

Leonion

Master Knight
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Sirg said:
Yes. And this is the only problem.

However, when one companion is training CKO, only his friend try to leave, other companions are stable. And when trainer returnes, his friend also calms down and stops asking to leave. This is also my game experience, not a speculation.
I second this.
My companions never ask to leave as long as party morale is fine, ratio 2 enemies / 1 friend is maintained and I don't upset them with robbing villages and other stuff like that.

As I said before, farewell dialogue will never trigger as long as companion's morale is 20 or higher.
Now let's dig some Native code and see how it is calculated:
      (troop_get_slot, ":morality_grievances", ":npc", slot_troop_morality_penalties),
        (troop_get_slot, ":personality_grievances", ":npc", slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties),
        (party_get_morale, ":party_morale", "p_main_party"),

        (store_sub, ":troop_morale", ":party_morale", ":morality_grievances"),
        (val_sub, ":troop_morale", ":personality_grievances"),
        (val_add, ":troop_morale", 50),

        (assign, reg8, ":troop_morale"),
       
        (val_mul, ":troop_morale", 3),
        (val_div, ":troop_morale", 4),
        (val_clamp, ":troop_morale", 0, 100),

Doing calculations backwards, at the point "(val_sub, ":troop_morale", ":personality_grievances")," NPC's morale should be >-23.
Party morale - slot_troop_morality_penalties - slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties > -23        - this is the final equation.

slot_troop_morality_penalties value increase when:
1) "Your objection is noted. Now fall back in line." +10
2) Another case of NPC's objections (I'm not sure what it is): +25 after "Your opinion is noted." dialogue option is selected.
3) An "objectionable_action" is committed. The change varies but you are notified by "@{s4} looks upset." message.

It decreases in the following situations:
1) After a successful persuasion attempt (see my previous message) it is halved
2) Over time. Every 24 hours slot_troop_morality_penalties increases or decreases as it is multiplied by 90/x where X = 100 - number of companions in a party + persuasion skill (which, btw, I haven't seen before, and it proves that Sirg is right about persuasion of 10 helping to keep companions since 90/(100-20+10)=1 which means slot_troop_morality_penalties does not increase).
3) It turns to 0 when a companion leaves a party.

Conclusion 1: when persuasion is 10 and none of "objectionable action" of any sorts are committed, you can have 20 companions in your party, and yet slot_troop_morality_penalties value will not accumulate => will not lead to farewell dialogue in the long run.

Now let's take a look at slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties:
1) It decreases/increases over time the same way as slot_troop_morality_penalties (*90/x).
2) It turns to 0 when a companion leaves a party.
3) Every 24 hours, unless conflict solution "shut up you both" is chosen, a companion will get +5 for every enemy, that was valued higher than him/her in a certain conflict (i.e. if I say to companion X complaining about companion Y "Companion Y is a valuable member of the party", I will value companion Y higher than companion X in their conflict; but there is also a case of companion Y complaining about companion X which should be resolved too), to slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties. And if dialogue options are chosen carefully (out of 4 conflicts when he/she complains about and is complained about by each of his/her 2 enemies, the companion is supported 2 times), every companion will have +5*2 =+10 points to slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties every 24 hours.
At the same time slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties will be multiplied by 9/10 if a companion has a friend in the party.
Simple math shows that if slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties has a value of 90 or higher, every following increase + 10 will be compensated by the 9/10 decrease.
4) After a successful persuasion attempt (see my previous message) it is halved
5) Two times in a game a companion gets +5 to slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties after he/she complains to you about one of his enemies. That gives us 10 in total.

Conclusion 2: when persuasion is 10, 1 friend in a party is enough to compensate for any increases in slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties after it reaches a value of 90.

Conclusion 3: As you remember, the equation Party morale - slot_troop_morality_penalties - slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties > -23 for companions to never start *****ing. When persuasion is 10 and no "objectionable actions" are committed, slot_troop_morality_penalties will have a value close to 0 (some of slot_troop_morality_penalties points will accumulate during the time that you have 20 companions but not enough persuasion yet, but they eventually drop to 0 or a value close to it as a result if successful persuasion attempts or companions leaving since both lead to decrease in slot_troop_morality_penalties). slot_troop_personalityclash_penalties practically uses 90 points. Any accumulated value higher than this will eventually drop to 90 if your persuasion skill is 10.
Alright. Let's add these values to the equation.
Party morale - 0 - 90 > -23      => Party morale > 67 or better yet:
Party morale - any extra accumulated penalty points > 67
If this equation stays true, persuasion is 10, every companion has 2 enemies and 1 friend in the party and you don't commit any "objectionable actions", companions will not try to leave.