Perisno Version 0.81 - The Main Thread (HF0.811 - March 11, 2017, 10:37:18 AM)

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Leonion said:
Striptokop said:
The fact that there are low-tier Zweihanders and Zweihanders have their own category is confusing to me.

I thought they are just a part of two-handed swords, but alright. Guess I will have to fix it myself.
Not their own category, it's just...
You could say the whole balance is built on sort of "product lines" (hurray, I have finally found the right term for this! :smile:) - from cheap low-quality products to high-quality products.
There is a "product line" of sabers, a "product line" of cleavers, a "product line" of zweihanders, a "product line" of claymores, a "product line" of nordic swords (Nordic Short Sword, 26c => Old Nordic Sword, 28c => Nordic sword, 32c => Nordic Short War Sword, 35c => Nordic War Sword, 38c => Heavy Nothern Sword, 41c => Northern Bastard Sword, 42c as 1h => Spirit of the North, although it only distantly resembles previous swords, bastard, 50c as 1h), a "product line" of gladiuses, a "product line" of Legion swords etc. etc.
But they're all just regular 1h, bastard or 2h swords.

Oh, I see. That's very diffirent to what I've used to see in other mods (ex. PoP with Zwei and Flamberge being top-tier two-handed swords), but now I start to understand how the balance works in Perisno and I am certanly digging that. Thanks for the clarification!
 
Send Michadr a message. Describe your suggestions. Join the team. Make a better balance.
I am sick of this ****.
...
Well, I tried to tell you that you definitely have serious nomenclature problems, and that in my opinion, the weapon balance needs work, but instead you decided to act like an unappreciated martyr, and in the light of the outpouring of love, I do not think there is a point in my arguing balance with you.  If you think that it is OK that a "Balanced one-handed knight's claymore" is more damaging and faster, when used one handed, than Kingslayer, then there is little to talk about.  I will point out that you did your calculations assuming extremely high weapon proficiency, which will never reached by 99% of players, while still arguing that Kingslayere is an early weapon, but hey, lets ignore that.

I'm not going to argue with you.  I'll just give you an information dump that only concerns UNIVERSALLY AGREED SWORD NOMENCLATURE in ENGLISH.

1) What you call 'production lines' is better called 'Archetypes'.  Archetype implies commonality.  Production line implies common origin, which is clearly not the case here.

2) Zweihanders and Claymores should not be archetype names.  They are both names of different variants of true two-handed swords.  Knight's sword is another name, this one applied to a variant of dedicated one handed swords.

3) In numerous places in Perisno, the model and the name are a complete mismatch, at least compared to universally accepted English terminology.
3.1  The sword called "Wakizashi" is 98cm long.  This is too long for a wakizashi, which means 'side inserted sword' and refers of the shorter sword of the set.  98cm is much too long even for a katana or tachi.  In Japanese, that sword would be called a ōdachi (to emphasize its size) or nodachi (to emphasize its use)
3.2  The one handed swords named "Claymore" use the model of the Scottish two handed sword, and have the function of a "Knight's sword". 
3.3  The swords named "Zweihander" use models of late medieval Beidhänder which was carried and used as polearm, despite having a sword's construction.  Zweihander is a generic, modern term for any two handed sword.  Beidhänder, which emphasizes that both hands are used, would be a better term to refer to the weapons that cannot be used on horseback.
3.4  Many swords named "Longsword" use models of basket hilt swords, also known as broadswords.  Longsword is the technical name for a bastard sword.
3.5  The "Rapier" is 80cm, much too short to be classified as such.  It has the length of a dress or court sword.
3.6  The swords named "Nordic swords" mostly use models of arming swords.  The Viking swords were never very different from contemporary European swords.  After all, the Vikings really got around, the British isles, Paris, Byzantium, and their swords were (often superior) examples of whatever the technology allowed. 
3.7  It is strange to talk about gladiī and Legion swords as separate archetypes.  There is no distinction made between gladiī and spathae in the mod, and I cannot see what else a legion archetype would be, given that the Third legion has a definite roman vibe.

Anyway.  I doubt anyone will rename the swords so that the names match the models or at least the function.  But when you have such conflicts it makes the mod look unpolished, just like having a siege crossbow weight practically the same as some human one handed swords.  As for why no one complains about axes?  Because the models are completely fantastical, and have no basic in reality.  One can just assume they work as weapons because of divine assistance (shamanism, old gods, etc.)  But to those who actually care about swords, some of the names are about as appropriate as using "bullpup torsion composite yumi" for a self-bow.
 
Perisno is a fantasy world, not the real world :sad:
However it's cool to be more real(among fantasy), but it takes time to balance as leonion has put too much in 0.8 :oops:
Well the suggestion to change some models might be taken in the future  :fruity:
 
Arguing about names of weapons in a fantasy mod, when many the names being used are either modern re-assignments ("Longsword is the technical name for a bastard sword" is a statement that was not true in the English speaking world prior to the 20th century) or 'mistakes' that were made historically as well (many early smallswords were still referred to as "rapiers" by their wielders)...  :facepalm:
(As far as the wakizashi goes, is it at least shorter than the katana?  If so I don't otherwise care if it's "accurate", because sub-80 length weapons are a pain in the ass for the player to use in M&B, which is the only reason I think the Rapier is too short :razz: )

I feel that any kind of accuracy/realism argument in anything Warband-related is an argument in absurdity to begin with, anyway.  *Most* of the weapons in the game, vanilla or any mod at all, are not things you'd see on the same battlefield as plate armor to begin with.. the primary methods for fighting armor are things you'd never do in reality (you can ride at top speed and swing a big sword all you want, in the real world you're not going to do more with a slashing attack to the chest than perhaps knock over the guy whose breastplate you hit)... and where is the grappling?!  :lol:
 
Tuidjy said:
Send Michadr a message. Describe your suggestions. Join the team. Make a better balance.
I am sick of this ****.
...
Well, I tried to tell you that you definitely have serious nomenclature problems, and that in my opinion, the weapon balance needs work, but instead you decided to act like an unappreciated martyr, and in the light of the outpouring of love, I do not think there is a point in my arguing balance with you.  If you think that it is OK that a "Balanced one-handed knight's claymore" is more damaging and faster, when used one handed, than Kingslayer, then there is little to talk about.  I will point out that you did your calculations assuming extremely high weapon proficiency, which will never reached by 99% of players, while still arguing that Kingslayere is an early weapon, but hey, lets ignore that.

I'm not going to argue with you.  I'll just give you an information dump that only concerns UNIVERSALLY AGREED SWORD NOMENCLATURE in ENGLISH.

CITE YOUR SOURCE!! A "Universally Agreed Sword Nomenclature in English" :roll: ... or any other language for that matter, simply does NOT exist!
About the only thing universally agreed upon as far as "sword nomenclature" is that nobody nowadays has any true idea what a particular sword was called back in the middle ages. The closest we can come is 17th century, and even then, what was called or translated as a sabre in one area may not be the same thing at all as what a sabre was in another. The problem is two-fold:
1.) We have very few examples of any type of swords from the Medieval Era.
2.) Medieval and Renaissance sources are very non-specific as to what any given type of sword was.
For example "Claymore" is very likely a corruption of the old Scots word for "sword"! Just "sword", no implication of 2 handed, hand and a half, basket hilt, or whatever.
Rapiers are an interesting case. There are many examples of rapiers having blades roughly 80-100 cm long, because they were easier to wear, and handier in a crowd. Some rapiers had blades nearly 200 cm long. All rapiers.
Anyway, please cite the "Official Authoritative Complete Nomenclature of All Swords in English" ... where can I get a copy?
Absolutely NONE of the numerous works of swords I've ever read has anything approaching a "UNIVERSALLY AGREED SWORD NOMENCLATURE". I may accept that "we've decided several hundred years after the fact that we want to define a claymore as this, and a zweihander as that". But don't EVER think for a moment that you're using the definitions they used in Medieval times. :evil:
 
Tuidjy,
1) I am that 1 "company" that offers you the "product lines" of weapons.  :smile:
If not "product line", just "type" would be enough. "Arhetype" is a terribly overused pretentious word that hardly fits here.
2) The sword called "Wakizashi" is 98cm long - a terrible oversight. I'm gonna go commit seppuku to restore my honor.  :roll:
Although, granted, after looking at pictures on google, it does look far too long. I'll change the name.

But again, I repeat: Perisno is a fantasy mod. This is why I like it, this is why I decided to joined the team and support it a year ago. Because it is supposed to be a mod where I am not bullied by some History Nazis who will claim that this beautiful claymore that looks great in one hand cannot be used this way.
Fantasy does not justify logical errors and irrational behavior, but other than this everything that is stated in a fantasy piece of work is automatically correct and true.
If I wanted, I could make one-handed zweihanders, throwing polehammers and a bow that shoots claymores, and they would all be OK.
Fantasy mod cannot be called "unpolished" because it doesn't fit some historical or linguistic standards.
A simple example: think about differences between British, American, Australian and other versions of English. Just because some object that stands in an American house (and is called by its owners xxxxxx) is called yyyyyy in British, it doesn't mean its owners should rename it.
And I also don't have to rename Perisno one-handed claymores (wakizashis/etc.), because they are Perisno claymores, not Scottish or anyone's else.
 
Turns out, "Claymore" can actually refer to the old Scottish versions of basket-hilted one handed swords - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore - so the idea of a one handed claymore isn't stupid at all. Yes, Leonion could give the Kaikoth a "One-Handed Dwarven Claymore" or something and it would make sense. You heard me.

It's completely fine.

As a general rule, I dislike this variety of nitpicking. I remember how katanas and nodachis in Gekokujo were shortened in 3.0 due to "realism" concerns - without taking into account that;

1 - The range was just fine before, comfortable and strong without being overpowered.
2 - Warband characters are 6ft tall, while the average Japanese Sengoku Era fighter would have been 5ft 2 or so.
3 - As such, when the swords were shortened to "realistic" lengths, it wasn't taken into account that the swords actually became unusually short compared to the size of the person holding them.
4 - As such, the weapon length to character size ratio got messed up.
5 - Ironically, to make them a realistic length/height ratio again... you could just revert the "realistic" changes that were already made. Adding 15% to the range of all swords would make them comfortable, strong, and fun to use again.

Realism can add much needed flavour and believability to a game. Knee-jerk changes to make a game pseudo-realistic are like adding coconut sounds to a clip of a galloping horse - it might be what the audience expects to see ("realism" = "what I think is realistic", after all...), but does it really make the movie better?

-

Balance should probably stay focused around making sure the game is neither too easy nor too hard, and making sure no one faction gets all of the overpowered weapons.

Most importantly, it should be about making the game FUN!
 
I love Perisno.  It has become our favorite mod.  Please do not pay attention to negativity.  You have done a fantastic job and 99.9% of us appreciate it.  Please don't quit, just ignore the complainers.  They are all over the net in every forum, about every game.  Never appreciating an excellent free mod.  To me and my family, Perisno is PERFECT. 

I love the good-natured Lords.  They actually marry us poor females.

Keep up the good work - our digital love sent to you.
 
Carriedaway said:
Please don't quit, just ignore the complainers.  They are all over the net in every forum, about every game.  Never appreciating an excellent free mod. 

I love how giving critique = not appreciating/hating/whatever in white knight eyes. I love Perisno to death, but your mindset is cancerous and brings absolutely nothing to the table. Please, think about it in your free time.
 
Striptkop, it's because of nasty people like you that I rarely post to forums.  Complaining about a compliment, how sad and lonely you must be to even say what you did.  I was trying to make Leonion know how much he is appreciated and you make a big deal out of it.  Thank you for singling me out for your rath.  Goodday.
 
I see that you also have problems with reading and comprehension. Please show me to where I complained about your compliment? I pointed out that generalizing people who have diffirent opinion and argue about one minor thing as "not appreciating" is stupid and doesn't make any sense. Also, actually don't anwser to my post, I guess I will just see an even bigger amount of mansplaining in your already mental writings. Good riddance.
 
Perisno is clearly a fantasy mod which means it doesn't have to be historically accurate so complaining about it being slightly unrealistic or having unrealistic weapon types is in my opinion, stupid. I'd rather have the developers work on fixing bugs and adding new, original content than have them waste precious time making sure that certain weapons (which look perfectly fine) are realistic and balanced. (Despite them being realistic and balanced for Perisno's standards)

If you're one of the very few people that for some reason find Perisno's weapons unbalanced and unrealistic to the point where you would write paragraphs about it, I suggest you edit them yourself.
 
Striptkop, the complaints were bad enough that he wanted to quit Perisno.  I had not read your posts until now and all you do is complain.  Blessings to Leonion for being the patient person he seems to be.  Apologies to all if my post started something, I will only post if absolutely necessary from now.


 
Carriedaway said:
I had not read your posts until now and all you do is complain.

Any proof of that? Or, I guess, in your little world asking a legitimate question about Zweihander weapons power is "all you do is complain"? How do you even communicate in real life if you have such terrible logic errors?
 
Yes, please stop.
I'm pretty sure Carriedaway meant "destructive" complainers, not just everyone who gives criticism.
Constructive criticism and suggestions are important, and I often listen to them.
Most of tweaks I made for PoP were other people's great suggestions.
Many changes made since the release of 0.8 until now (adding options to change custom mercs' and household guards' race, changing the way items appear in shops (current culture vs original culture), fixing mouths of female elves, adding more infantry, making it possible to recruit nobles even from fiefs you don't personally own, changing prisoner recruitment conditions several times, buffing Aegis even further etc. etc.) were made in response to constructive, well-justified, logical criticism.
What I can't stand is lies ("Zann took over the entire map!"), aggressive complaints based on simple lack of information ("Kingslayer sucks! 35% penalty!") or unwillingness to think and try different ways instead of just charging ahead alone and relying on brute force only ("People of Valahir have 1.5 soldiers! Impossible to beat!"), immediately complaining about something that seems off instead of even trying to play for a little bit, paying more attention and at least trying to understand the devs' intention and how things work (Zann invasion again - all those "they steamroll the map! My game is over! I have to start again now!" from people who didn't play longer than a week since invasion) or complaining about things that are totally irrelevant (e.g. historical accuracy in a fantasy mod with dragons and wyverns).
And now that is what's is killing the motivation, not constructive complains.
 
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