Perisno Version 0.81 - The Main Thread (HF0.811 - March 11, 2017, 10:37:18 AM)
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Ah HA!Leonion said:
So the "35%" is an (incorrect) aggregate of damage and speed reductions ... Thanks much for that clarification. 
Is that Perisno specific?Leonion said:
Years ago I tested the damage penalty on a target in Native, and it was 30% or 35%. The speed seemed harder to test, and it looked like 20% to 30%, so I assumed 30 for both.
Last year I tested the speed in Viking Conquest, using save editing to get proficiencies and agility so that testing was easy, and the speed penalty was exactly 35%, tested with mouse macros over 10 minute periods.
I will test it next time I see a target in Perisno. Anyone knows one off the top of their head?
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Hmm... Actually, all I have to do is duel a wimpy, weaponless companion in one of the arenas which have destructible targets, and ignore her, I guess. Still does not invalidate my point that the Kingslayer is only marginally better when held in two hands than a emerald royal sword, which gets no shield penalty.
There's no weapon balance to speak of.
Kingslayer isn't bad, it's the other weapons, like Assassin Sword, Royal Swords, Demonic Sword, Elven Noble Sword, etc, that are simply too good compared to others, and thus skew the whole balancing curve to hell. It's just classic power creep.
They deal more damage than most axes while being faster and having longer reach, and the only axes that deal more damage are short, slow and barely usable.
Many of the dedicated two-handers like the Giant Greatsword are a complete joke as well when compared to non-giant versions of the same weapons, or to one-handers in general.
Some, like Flamebringer, and the whole Flamberge/Zweihander line, are for some reason unusable on horseback for no good reason, when there is a stronger version (Golden Sunblade) that is perfectly usable while mounted.
Almost all two-handed axes are downright terrible. Executer is absurdly slow, has crappy polearm moveset... while High Elf Sword is faster, longer, does comparable damage and also can crush through blocks.
The whole Morningstar line is also almost useless for the player. All NPCs have lightning fast attack speed and incredibly high proficiencies, you'll never hit anything with those slow, short spiky maces, unless it's a ride-by attack. What's worse, most of them are bastard weapons on top of already painfully slow speed.
Blunt weapons are okay, and shouldn't be touched anymore, probably. If anything, there should be less blunt weapons in the mod.
That being said, it's such a pathetically small issue that you can just fix it yourself in 5-10 minutes using Morgh's editor. The developers should focus on more important issues, like fixing bugs in sieges and quests, instead of balancing weapons every patch.
Kingslayer isn't bad, it's the other weapons, like Assassin Sword, Royal Swords, Demonic Sword, Elven Noble Sword, etc, that are simply too good compared to others, and thus skew the whole balancing curve to hell. It's just classic power creep.
They deal more damage than most axes while being faster and having longer reach, and the only axes that deal more damage are short, slow and barely usable.
Many of the dedicated two-handers like the Giant Greatsword are a complete joke as well when compared to non-giant versions of the same weapons, or to one-handers in general.
Some, like Flamebringer, and the whole Flamberge/Zweihander line, are for some reason unusable on horseback for no good reason, when there is a stronger version (Golden Sunblade) that is perfectly usable while mounted.
Almost all two-handed axes are downright terrible. Executer is absurdly slow, has crappy polearm moveset... while High Elf Sword is faster, longer, does comparable damage and also can crush through blocks.
The whole Morningstar line is also almost useless for the player. All NPCs have lightning fast attack speed and incredibly high proficiencies, you'll never hit anything with those slow, short spiky maces, unless it's a ride-by attack. What's worse, most of them are bastard weapons on top of already painfully slow speed.
Blunt weapons are okay, and shouldn't be touched anymore, probably. If anything, there should be less blunt weapons in the mod.
That being said, it's such a pathetically small issue that you can just fix it yourself in 5-10 minutes using Morgh's editor. The developers should focus on more important issues, like fixing bugs in sieges and quests, instead of balancing weapons every patch.
No, such things are universal.Tuidjy said:
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,346233.msg8453920.html#msg8453920
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,346233.msg8453983.html#msg8453983
Kingslayer is much easier to get than Emerald or Ruby royal swords which are only rarely sold in shops (and in first versions of 0.8 they even were not sold in shops).
They're more "legendary" than Kingslayer.
Zweihanders are huge two-handed weapons for foot soldiers. The very idea of them being used from horseback is ridiculous.Lazy Buttons said:
Sunblade is seen as an exceptional legendary weapon. It wasn't even available as merchandise or in any other form initially. AFAIR, making it available was my post-balance decision. Probably a hasty one.
Axes and maces have their actual length - the actual size of models as they were created by the modellers who made OSPs. And some of them were even enlarged by me.
Don't forget that axes have a bonus against shields. Plus they're much cheaper than swords. And axes' average damage is bigger than swords' average damage.
Plus top-tier axes are much more common than top-tier swords (abundance 50-100 vs abundance 2-20).
And "short" is not necessarily bad, everything depends on conditions of battle.
Morningstars and other piercing weapons are currently the best weapons, because my initial balance had some miscalculations for them and I made them too OP. I rebalanced them in the end (almost before the release), but they're still exceptionally good (their raw damage + armor penetration + knockdown for best weapons)
Striptokop
Sergeant at Arms
I agree what two-handers are awful in Perisno at the moment. I use Zweihander for aestetics, but it's garbage.
Zweihander is one of the bottom-level 2h swords. You might as well have picked some basic arming sword.
There are much better alternatives:
Every balance must have low-damage and high-damage weapons.
High-end bastard and 2h weapons of any kind are exceptionally powerful.
There are much better alternatives:
High-end bastard and 2h weapons of any kind are exceptionally powerful.
It's a bit of a long post, so I'll probably hide it all under a spoiler tag.
Mind, I don't really have issues with the actual current weapon balance in Perisno. There's Morgh after all, and anything can be changed. It's mostly the design logic that I have issues with.
The much overrated Skyfall is longer than said Zweihanders and can be used from a mount just fine.. Hits harder, faster, and can be used with a shield, too.
Talk about a 'legendary' sword that is easier to get than most 'common' blades. I had two of the thing by the 300 days mark. But okay, okay, it's 'magical'.
So we'll take the next thing that is in the same category as Zweihander. Another two-handed sword.
Perisno Sun Sword is larger (visually), longer, has same weight, AND does more damage than said poor Zweihander but it's perfectly usable on a mount. And deals more damage to boot. And faster!Why? It must be all those additional hooks on it, and its unnaturally wide blade. It makes the weapon more hurty, and somehow more aerodynamic.
Let's not even go into comparing the poor Giant Greatsword versus Highelf Greatsword.. there's just no contest. The former is just completely unreedemable garbage while the other is stupidly good.
Here's the main issue here:
One one hand, you say zweihanders, and most two-handers/polearms in general are not usable while mounted by default because it's 'ridiculous'. Or 'unrealistic'. Or 'historically inaccurate'.
On the other hand, some other weapons are inherently better than lower tier versions for no obvious reason, there are multiple tiers, and certain swords are arbitrarily faster, and do more damage just because they're 'top tier'. And can be usable whilst mounted. Or 'rare'. Or 'magical'. Or 'legendary'.
These are two diametrically opposite paradigms. Neither is invalid but they're at cross purposes with one another, and trying to stick to both at the same time seems counter-productive.
And speaking of legendaries, why can, say, Skyfall be one-handed, and say, Dreaded Sword can't? Both are 'magical', and 'legendary', and 'top-tier', after all. Dreaded Sword is slower, and deals less damage to boot, too, despite being a 'legendary' pure two-hander whilst Skyfall is a bastard hybrid.
Which I would completely agree with.
Mind, I don't really have issues with the actual current weapon balance in Perisno. There's Morgh after all, and anything can be changed. It's mostly the design logic that I have issues with.
The much overrated Skyfall is longer than said Zweihanders and can be used from a mount just fine.. Hits harder, faster, and can be used with a shield, too.
Talk about a 'legendary' sword that is easier to get than most 'common' blades. I had two of the thing by the 300 days mark. But okay, okay, it's 'magical'.
So we'll take the next thing that is in the same category as Zweihander. Another two-handed sword.
Perisno Sun Sword is larger (visually), longer, has same weight, AND does more damage than said poor Zweihander but it's perfectly usable on a mount. And deals more damage to boot. And faster!Why? It must be all those additional hooks on it, and its unnaturally wide blade. It makes the weapon more hurty, and somehow more aerodynamic.
Let's not even go into comparing the poor Giant Greatsword versus Highelf Greatsword.. there's just no contest. The former is just completely unreedemable garbage while the other is stupidly good.
We could also note that all the 'shorter' bardiches (130 and less) should be perfectly usable while mounted because a bardiche is by no means a slow or unwieldy weapon, due to the ease with which one can switch its grip to be closer to the blade, and use it as a saber/axe of sorts. It's an exceptionally versatile polearm that can be used for cutting, thrusting, or beating somene over the head with its haft.
In fact, some ARE usable while mounted, while others aren't. Logic?
In fact, some ARE usable while mounted, while others aren't. Logic?
Here's the main issue here:
One one hand, you say zweihanders, and most two-handers/polearms in general are not usable while mounted by default because it's 'ridiculous'. Or 'unrealistic'. Or 'historically inaccurate'.
On the other hand, some other weapons are inherently better than lower tier versions for no obvious reason, there are multiple tiers, and certain swords are arbitrarily faster, and do more damage just because they're 'top tier'. And can be usable whilst mounted. Or 'rare'. Or 'magical'. Or 'legendary'.
These are two diametrically opposite paradigms. Neither is invalid but they're at cross purposes with one another, and trying to stick to both at the same time seems counter-productive.
And speaking of legendaries, why can, say, Skyfall be one-handed, and say, Dreaded Sword can't? Both are 'magical', and 'legendary', and 'top-tier', after all. Dreaded Sword is slower, and deals less damage to boot, too, despite being a 'legendary' pure two-hander whilst Skyfall is a bastard hybrid.
Perhaps, the root of his complaint ("I use Zweihander for aesthetics, but it's garbage") was that cool-looking weapons are worse, stat-wise, than the top tier versions that look outlandish, bizzare and impractical. Like the Perisno Sun Sword, or Golden Sunblade.
Which I would completely agree with.
1) I can make Sun Sword and Sunblade unusable on horseback, if that's what you want.
2) Giant Greatsword - 2h, itp_can_knock_down, 56c, length 160, speed 72
Highelf Sword - 2h, itp_crush_through, 57c, length 167, speed 96.
Save for the speed, these swords are almost identical.
Elven sword is better because it was forged by great elven smiths from whatever secret alloys they use, not reforged from rusty scrap and garbage like giant sword.
3) Shorter and smaller bardiches are available for the use from horseback, longer and bigger ones or the ones with blades, that look strange when they're used from horseback (the case of Steel Bardiche), are not.
If you're thinking any weapon settings were set randomly, then you're mistaken.
I can give you a report on every single number or flag for every single item - why and why not.
...except for weight. Weight was set very approximately, "by sight".
And grip cannot be switched in Warband without turning bardiches into guandao. And there is already an assortment of guandaos, and this is why bardiches were left to be bardiches for primarily infantry use. Diversity and stuff.
4) There are no opposite paradigms.
Perisno is a fantasy world, but it doesn't mean everything is fantasy.
Regular weapons are forged by regular people. To them, historical accuracy, logics and common sense are applied.
But there are also legendary weapons forged from gods-know-what by gods-know-who, which are assumed to be lighter, more balanced and easier to wield due to the nature of the material they're made of. And even in their case it's not very fantasy, let alone unrealistic. It's not like humanity doesn't know any materials which are, for example, many times sturdier than regular iron or even steel while also being much lighter.
5) Dreaded Sword is bulkier than Skyfall, that's why it was made 2h-only and slower.
6) As for aesthetics - to each their own. I cannot satisfy personal preferences of every single player.
But I did my best to position different weapons of similar type along the whole range, i.e. there are bad sabers, good sabers, elite sabers. There are bad 1h historical swords, there are good 1h historical swords, there are elite 1h historical swords. There is **** Zweihander, there is better Schlachtschwert, even better Flame Schlachtschwert, then Flamberge and finally Flamebringer - all of them are zweihanders.
Fantasy swords like Sunblade and Sun Sword cannot be regular. They're legendary by default, by their very look, and can either be made top-tier weapons or should be removed completely, because having the Sunblade with, for example, some 45 cutting damage makes no sense at all and cannot be explained.
For those who do not like them, there are much more regular top-tier swords - be they 1h royal "historical" swords or elvish blades, or bastard Spirit of the North, Skyfall or 2h Nisaynian's Legacy.
There is a balanced selection of weapons for every taste.
2) Giant Greatsword - 2h, itp_can_knock_down, 56c, length 160, speed 72
Highelf Sword - 2h, itp_crush_through, 57c, length 167, speed 96.
Save for the speed, these swords are almost identical.
Elven sword is better because it was forged by great elven smiths from whatever secret alloys they use, not reforged from rusty scrap and garbage like giant sword.
3) Shorter and smaller bardiches are available for the use from horseback, longer and bigger ones or the ones with blades, that look strange when they're used from horseback (the case of Steel Bardiche), are not.
If you're thinking any weapon settings were set randomly, then you're mistaken.
I can give you a report on every single number or flag for every single item - why and why not.
...except for weight. Weight was set very approximately, "by sight".
And grip cannot be switched in Warband without turning bardiches into guandao. And there is already an assortment of guandaos, and this is why bardiches were left to be bardiches for primarily infantry use. Diversity and stuff.
4) There are no opposite paradigms.
Perisno is a fantasy world, but it doesn't mean everything is fantasy.
Regular weapons are forged by regular people. To them, historical accuracy, logics and common sense are applied.
But there are also legendary weapons forged from gods-know-what by gods-know-who, which are assumed to be lighter, more balanced and easier to wield due to the nature of the material they're made of. And even in their case it's not very fantasy, let alone unrealistic. It's not like humanity doesn't know any materials which are, for example, many times sturdier than regular iron or even steel while also being much lighter.
5) Dreaded Sword is bulkier than Skyfall, that's why it was made 2h-only and slower.
6) As for aesthetics - to each their own. I cannot satisfy personal preferences of every single player.
But I did my best to position different weapons of similar type along the whole range, i.e. there are bad sabers, good sabers, elite sabers. There are bad 1h historical swords, there are good 1h historical swords, there are elite 1h historical swords. There is **** Zweihander, there is better Schlachtschwert, even better Flame Schlachtschwert, then Flamberge and finally Flamebringer - all of them are zweihanders.
Fantasy swords like Sunblade and Sun Sword cannot be regular. They're legendary by default, by their very look, and can either be made top-tier weapons or should be removed completely, because having the Sunblade with, for example, some 45 cutting damage makes no sense at all and cannot be explained.
For those who do not like them, there are much more regular top-tier swords - be they 1h royal "historical" swords or elvish blades, or bastard Spirit of the North, Skyfall or 2h Nisaynian's Legacy.
There is a balanced selection of weapons for every taste.
Leonion said:
Nah, Please leave things as they are. I know all of us have some item/faction/bandit group that bugs us, but it's your world, after all!
Before I start with a wall of text, let me first say that I think Perisno is already one of the most enjoyable mods, and seems to have the potential to shoot to the top of all Warband mods. It is definitely already in my top five, bugs, balance, and exploits nonwithstanding. This is why I argue that weapon balance needs work - because, at least for me, the strange weapon properties are distracting. It is too easy to find, early on, a great weapon that will be better at most things than the legendary stuff you find later on.
It is true that the most common titanium alloys are slightly stronger than the most common steel alloys, while being about two times lighter.
But the strongest titanium alloys are significantly weaker than the strongest steel alloys, and both of them are useless for making swords. To make swords, you need the ability to hold an edge, a certain kind of plasticity (ductility more than malleability) and certain responses to stress and heat. We know of no titanium alloy that comes close to the best steel alloys, when it comes to making swords.
Furthermore, in order to work, or even extract titanium, you need either high tech or magic. While extremely stable and non-toxic at normal temperatures, titanium has really nasty properties in the presence of heat or mechanics pressure. Machining it requires insane equipment, expertise and an ability to monitor the process that a low tech society can only achieve through magic. And as I said, above, tensile strength and weight is not everything when it comes to swords. So even in a fantasy world, if you want to remain plausible, awesome swords must be either made of steel, or made with magic. Even the best steel alloys require technology or magic. You can get away with one sword forged from a meteorite which happen to possess the purity (or just the exact right kind of proportions) for a legendary sword, but that's it.
All this to say that common, mass produced swords shouldn't be outwordly, unless magic is commonly used by their makers. Thus Elven swords and Dwarven crossbows can be lighter or more powerful than their real word counterparts, but common human equipment should not be. So, when you say that all swords are balanced, please explain swords like the "One handed Knight's Claymore".
To begin the name of the "One handed Knight's Claymore" makes no sense whatsoever. In English the word claymore is used for two kinds of swords. One is a true two-hander, which is not sized or balanced for one handed use. The other is a very specific Scottish basket hilt sword, that is nothing like the one in Perisno, in looks, application, or plausible stats.
Second, the dimensions and the weight of the sword make no sense for a one hander. Its hilt is as long as my character's forearm, for crying out loud. It's significantly longer than one meter, and has the kind of guard that requires the leverage of two hands to use effectively. Hell, it could be used as a typical example of a longsword (known among some as a bastard sword)
Third, its stats are amazing. It cuts better than short, curved, high end sabers, which in the real world have amazing cutting power in relation to their weight. It cuts better than dedicated elven two handed blades that have the curve and leverage of swords that in the real sword have been designed primarily for cutting. Its masterwork and balanced versions rival, when used one handed, the stats of legendary longswords and two handers.
Fourth, it is common as dirt. A short trip through half a dozen cities is almost guaranteed to provide you with a few. The mystic merchant has if about one third of the time. If he does not, he often has one of the half a dozen better swords which use the same model, and have much better stats.
On day 107, every companion of mine has one of them, except the ones using an emerald/ruby royal sword, an assassin blade, a demonic sword, or a giant cleaver. Yeah, I have looting 10, and yeah, I play a horse archer that takes on 1:10 odds against elite enemies. I have no problem with the gem swords, the rare loot drops, etc... my problem is with the One handed Knight's Claymore, which seems to be a common run of the mill sword... and which in my book is more preferable than the Kingslayer in 90% of situations.
And then there is its big brother, the bastard knight sword, which seems to be almost as common, and better than runed elven blades or legendary swords of the same type.
I think the weapons in Persino could stand a good look, balance wise. When you have a short, light piercing pick that does more damage single handed than a 10 kilo sword swung with two hands, something is wrong. I am A-OK with mystic legendary weapons. I am fine with elves and dwarves using magic in the manufacturing process and squeezing high damage and low weight out of their butts. But weapons that are (1) non-magical (2) common (3) have a historical counterpart in the real world should behave realistically.
I am not 'humanity', but I am not aware of any material that works better than steel for making swords. And I worked for 30 years in a casting company that among other things cast military parts from all sorts of alloys, including titanium ones (not to be confused with steel alloys that include titanium). Yes, I assume that you must be thinking of titanium, which, if you listen to neophytes, is many times stronger than steel while light enough to float on water. It isn't either.Leonion said:
It is true that the most common titanium alloys are slightly stronger than the most common steel alloys, while being about two times lighter.
But the strongest titanium alloys are significantly weaker than the strongest steel alloys, and both of them are useless for making swords. To make swords, you need the ability to hold an edge, a certain kind of plasticity (ductility more than malleability) and certain responses to stress and heat. We know of no titanium alloy that comes close to the best steel alloys, when it comes to making swords.
Furthermore, in order to work, or even extract titanium, you need either high tech or magic. While extremely stable and non-toxic at normal temperatures, titanium has really nasty properties in the presence of heat or mechanics pressure. Machining it requires insane equipment, expertise and an ability to monitor the process that a low tech society can only achieve through magic. And as I said, above, tensile strength and weight is not everything when it comes to swords. So even in a fantasy world, if you want to remain plausible, awesome swords must be either made of steel, or made with magic. Even the best steel alloys require technology or magic. You can get away with one sword forged from a meteorite which happen to possess the purity (or just the exact right kind of proportions) for a legendary sword, but that's it.
All this to say that common, mass produced swords shouldn't be outwordly, unless magic is commonly used by their makers. Thus Elven swords and Dwarven crossbows can be lighter or more powerful than their real word counterparts, but common human equipment should not be. So, when you say that all swords are balanced, please explain swords like the "One handed Knight's Claymore".
To begin the name of the "One handed Knight's Claymore" makes no sense whatsoever. In English the word claymore is used for two kinds of swords. One is a true two-hander, which is not sized or balanced for one handed use. The other is a very specific Scottish basket hilt sword, that is nothing like the one in Perisno, in looks, application, or plausible stats.
Second, the dimensions and the weight of the sword make no sense for a one hander. Its hilt is as long as my character's forearm, for crying out loud. It's significantly longer than one meter, and has the kind of guard that requires the leverage of two hands to use effectively. Hell, it could be used as a typical example of a longsword (known among some as a bastard sword)
Third, its stats are amazing. It cuts better than short, curved, high end sabers, which in the real world have amazing cutting power in relation to their weight. It cuts better than dedicated elven two handed blades that have the curve and leverage of swords that in the real sword have been designed primarily for cutting. Its masterwork and balanced versions rival, when used one handed, the stats of legendary longswords and two handers.
Fourth, it is common as dirt. A short trip through half a dozen cities is almost guaranteed to provide you with a few. The mystic merchant has if about one third of the time. If he does not, he often has one of the half a dozen better swords which use the same model, and have much better stats.
On day 107, every companion of mine has one of them, except the ones using an emerald/ruby royal sword, an assassin blade, a demonic sword, or a giant cleaver. Yeah, I have looting 10, and yeah, I play a horse archer that takes on 1:10 odds against elite enemies. I have no problem with the gem swords, the rare loot drops, etc... my problem is with the One handed Knight's Claymore, which seems to be a common run of the mill sword... and which in my book is more preferable than the Kingslayer in 90% of situations.
And then there is its big brother, the bastard knight sword, which seems to be almost as common, and better than runed elven blades or legendary swords of the same type.
I think the weapons in Persino could stand a good look, balance wise. When you have a short, light piercing pick that does more damage single handed than a 10 kilo sword swung with two hands, something is wrong. I am A-OK with mystic legendary weapons. I am fine with elves and dwarves using magic in the manufacturing process and squeezing high damage and low weight out of their butts. But weapons that are (1) non-magical (2) common (3) have a historical counterpart in the real world should behave realistically.
Send Michadr a message. Describe your suggestions. Join the team. Make a better balance.Tuidjy said:
I am sick of this ****.
I am sick of listing items' stats and posting screenshots just to show that Aegis is still the best shield, that Kingslayer is a decent weapon, that Highelf Sword is almost as good as Giant Greatsword, that one-handed claymore with its 42 damage, 95 speed and 114 length is at best average+ weapon and is worse than Kingslayer (45 damage, 94 speed when used as 1h weapon, 117 length), that there are zweihanders of any quality etc. etc.
Your erroneous judgements are understandable, because you do not have the full picture of items that I have with the module system, and neither you have the math and calculations backing this balance but I'm tired of pointing out obvious errors. I'm tired of hearing complaints from people who do not know Perisno 0.8 balance even remotely as well as I do and demonstrate it by claiming that 1h claymore is better than Kingslayer.
I wasn't talking about titanium or even about making swords. I was talking about carbon nanotubes. Just an example of a great material with great properties.
Most items in Perisno are balanced from the point of length/size => speed.
But Perisno is a fantasy word. You don't know what materials with which properties exist in it. And this fantasy element is used to explain those few legendary weapons that have unusual stats.
You wanna talk about "One-Handed Knight's Claymore"? Fine. Let's talk.
1) I don't give a damn if this sword was never used as 1h in real life. Perisno is a fantasy world. And in this world they use it as 1h weapon. Period.
It's not like claymore is too huge to be absolutely unrealistic as 1h weapon (giant cleaver is a lot less realistic in this regard). We have much less realistic fantasy axes in the mod. Why no-one complains about them?
2) "It cuts better than short, curved, high end sabers, which in the real world have amazing cutting power in relation to their weight. It cuts better than dedicated elven two handed blades that have the curve and leverage of swords that in the real sword have been designed primarily for cutting." - what on Earth are you talking about?
First, most elven weapons, ebony blades and other weapons from Addonay's pack are better than that claymore.
Second, I already mentioned that I had the policy of putting similar items across the whole range of items, i.e. there are ****tier claymores, there are ****tier sabers, they're better sabers. It is done so that the players would not have a lack of their favorite weapons on the high-end (e.g. when it would only be filled with sabers and 0 high-end European swords).
Regular rusty Native sabers have ****tier stats than that claymore because the role of high-end sabers is filled with shiny sabers from Addonay's pack.
The form of the weapon is not the only thing that is important, the quality of work is important as well. And this is what is implied when you see a **** saber or a good claymore: the first is dull and made by some trainee from rusty scrap, the second is a masterpiece made from high-quality alloy by a great smith. I can't believe I have to explain things as simple as this. I can't believe I need to justify why I didn't shove all the claymores in 1 part of the balance (e.g. medium-tier swords) and didn't shove all the sabers into another part of the balance (e.g. high-tier swords) with their stats barely varying.
What's the damn point of having 10 sabers in the mod if they all have similar stats? Is this your idea of good balance?
F*ck this.
The upcoming version is my last. Then you can do whatever you wish to the balance, if Michadr accepts you.
Striptokop
Sergeant at Arms
The fact that there are low-tier Zweihanders and Zweihanders have their own category is confusing to me.
I thought they are just a part of two-handed swords, but alright. Guess I will have to fix it myself.
I thought they are just a part of two-handed swords, but alright. Guess I will have to fix it myself.
Leonion said:
@ Tuidjy: There are plenty of "historical" mods where you can dispute weapon/armour design flaws to your heart's content. Why pick on this one, which is pure FANTASY!?!
Don't like the design choices? Please pick another mod! Or at least let the design choices of the modders stand?
@ Leonin: Hope the players who can't do anything besides use Morgh's whinging isn't the reason you're ending your work on Perisno!
It would be a great loss to us who realize that this is a fantasy mod if you had to quit because of the whinging.
If it's time to move on, we'll miss you! Many thanks for all the hard work you put in gratis for us players!
Amen! You've made Perisno better in so many ways, small and large. You're incredibly responsive to questions from and suggestions by us players. Most of us (virtually all, I would guess) thoroughly enjoy the challenges and rewards your design choices have given us.OldGreyBeard said:@ Leonin: Hope the players who can't do anything besides use Morgh's whinging isn't the reason you're ending your work on Perisno!
It would be a great loss to us who realize that this is a fantasy mod if you had to quit because of the whinging.
If it's time to move on, we'll miss you! Many thanks for all the hard work you put in gratis for us players!
I'm not Tuidjy, but I would like to personally apologize to Leonion nonetheless. I mean, I also fueled the flames of this argument after all.
I'm an (amateur) game designer myself so I couldn't help but feel like the logic behind some of the choices in the mod was off. So I just offered my opinion there. I'll concede that Leonion's got a good point in his views on balance and I'll agree that this vision also has a certain logic to it. It's just perhaps not as obvious to me, as the player, as it is to the developer.
But I've already said that this is not a big deal. Weapon balance is nowhere near as important as fixing the bugs and polishing existing content. I wasn't clamoring for changes, just.. idly nitpicking. Honestly didn't mean to start such a nasty flamewar. Sorry.
I'm an (amateur) game designer myself so I couldn't help but feel like the logic behind some of the choices in the mod was off. So I just offered my opinion there. I'll concede that Leonion's got a good point in his views on balance and I'll agree that this vision also has a certain logic to it. It's just perhaps not as obvious to me, as the player, as it is to the developer.
But I've already said that this is not a big deal. Weapon balance is nowhere near as important as fixing the bugs and polishing existing content. I wasn't clamoring for changes, just.. idly nitpicking. Honestly didn't mean to start such a nasty flamewar. Sorry.
Not their own category, it's just...Striptokop said:
You could say the whole balance is built on sort of "product lines" (hurray, I have finally found the right term for this!
) - from cheap low-quality products to high-quality products. There is a "product line" of sabers, a "product line" of cleavers, a "product line" of zweihanders, a "product line" of claymores, a "product line" of nordic swords (Nordic Short Sword, 26c => Old Nordic Sword, 28c => Nordic sword, 32c => Nordic Short War Sword, 35c => Nordic War Sword, 38c => Heavy Nothern Sword, 41c => Northern Bastard Sword, 42c as 1h => Spirit of the North, although it only distantly resembles previous swords, bastard, 50c as 1h), a "product line" of gladiuses, a "product line" of Legion swords etc. etc.
But they're all just regular 1h, bastard or 2h swords.
Chilly broLeonion said:
I really love your design, balance(balance and not boring indeed, it's hard to take care of both of them
) and thoughtful. Believe me I have seen many really ungrateful/disgrace creatures due to **** PoP sub-mod, can you imagine some bastards said PoP 3.7 is not as balance as PoP G? Even after seeing 3.8's amazing sets these half beast half human beings still can say "Ugly, garbage team, little changes, dead mod lol, etc"
.And the authors of G is still in charge, "managing" PoP in china(even we won to ban the G, these guys still in charge but do nothing to PoP, what they want is the "dead" of PoP to show their G version is the best)
No one can do anything to them, and they are treated as the true contributor to PoP there, given great honor and respect.(Most indeed, ridiculoooous!!!)
It's unfair and ridiculous as other copyright issue mods will be taken down as soon as possible.
The only one moderator who wants to save PoP has been dismissed, perhaps only PoP 4 can save itself in china Ps: Sry for talked too much, just want to say things to perisno 0.8 is not that bad
needn't to be that annoyed Ps1:Wow thanks for that clarification, now I can use kingslayer more often, is is really not that bad as many two handed weapons only have 50- damage. I am even happier to know that it will be given a small burf as it is already very good
Ps2:About sunblade, in fact I bought some of them after I created my own perisno kingdom, this culture has great weapons to buy, thanks for that thoughtful design
PS3: Did flamebringer get a burf?
I think it's okay for its "can crush through block" like highelf sword.
