SP Antiquity Peloponnesian War Mod!

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Damien said:
A machaira does look similar to a kopis/falcata.

Here is an image to work from: http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/Swords%20and%20Knives/Greek%20Machaira.aspx


They are essentially similar weapons. The machaira is to the kopis what the 'shortsword' is to the 'longsword.' Ya know? They do have a slightly different shape too, but it's hard to tell for someone that doesn't have a pronounced interest in this kind of thing.


Not to bust anyone's balls, but I do take issue with some of the things Ubiquitus stated, and so I'd seriously suggest checking his facts against your own sources rather than just taking his statements at face value. Again, no ill-will intended.

By saving me some time of research, I meant all I need to do is run a check on the names and go from there. He didn't post any pictures, so it would be impossible to take it all as it is and just implement them, even if I wanted to make a mod without research.  :razz:

The kopis/falcata was not primarily used by cavalry or infantry. It appears to have had a pretty even distribution throughout both.

Agreed.

Also on Linothorax: There is a big debate among scholars as to whether this item -ever- existed in the way that is sometimes suggested (and as Ubiquitus is suggesting). The likelihood of its existance seems to be pretty slim. So any mention of 'linothorax' should simply be prefaced with "We don't know if this actually existed, but. . ."

Agreed as well. They used two very small references. One that includes a greek sentence that reads something in the line of "the linen armored argives" and a very small piece of layered linen. It could be that the Argives were an exception to the rule, or maybe not.

Finally, 'Scythians' and 'Corinthian' are spelled with C's, not K's.

I've seen both possibilities in greek dictionaries, and enciclopedias as well. I do prefer using "c" instead of the "k" though.

One other thing about the leaf blades, they are implemented in the game already, I used the term "straight blade" merely to denote the difference between them and the curvature of the kopis.

EDIT: I'll have to look further into the body armour names. I'm not sure about the integrity of the site.

Thoorax (GR): body armour.

http://members.tripod.com/~S_van_Dorst/Ancient_Warfare/Greece/greek_glossary.html
 
Gothic Knight said:
Did macedonian pikemen use the same sword?

No. They had just that and small dagger. Have you noticed that xiphos is thrusting sword?

Have you made pelta(a crescent-shaped wicker shield of peltasts) already? Is cavalry going to use normal spears? what horses?
 
Pjoo said:
Gothic Knight said:
Did macedonian pikemen use the same sword?

No. They had just that and small dagger. Have you noticed that xiphos is thrusting sword?

Have you made pelta(a crescent-shaped wicker shield of peltasts) already? Is cavalry going to use normal spears? what horses?

Yeah, the peltae is done. I might include some small variations of it's designs as well, if I can certify myself about the integrity of the sources. I'm not sure about the pikemen weapons, since I've seen so many different paintings of them, and no descriptions. So if anybody can point me a good link on that, I'd appreciate it. Cavalry will use both regular and sarissa spears, depending on the unit and faction.

I didn't dig into horses yet, and I'm all ears.
 
Damien,

half knowledge is not too good a councel, I might say. and it's worst than no knowledge at all, because it leads to arrogance and cockyness.  I am Greek, I am a pro in the military history field and I most certainly know what I am talking about. But I fear there are too many rude, ungreatful people here who just try to (in your words) bust people's balls, instead of appreciating their hard work.

I am not absolutely certain about the machaera,but there are plenty of references in xenophon about machera interchangable with xiphos and a couple other authors are clearly writing machaera where they could write xiphos. True, it has been used to describe a kopis, but it also has been used to describe most other swords. Same with the word xiphos. The only word that has been used only for it's specific design is the word "kopis". The small (much smaller than kopis) sword that you are probably confusing with the Machaera, is called Machaerion, and I actually forgot to add it in my list. Machaera, practically, means any short sword.

also, kopis was indeed used mostly by the cavalry in the Greek area and before Alexander. Read xenophon and check the bloody vases. Apparently, a number of Alexander foot troops used kopis as their secondary weapon, although the sources are very confusing generally about the armament of Alexandros' men. Do not confuse Greece with Italy and Spain, where the falcata was used extensively by foot troops, or with Achaemenid Persia, where the akinaka (a similar design) was also used mostly by footmen.

The existence of linothorax cannot be challenged because many ancient sources talking about warfare, are reffering to them. Also, the suggestion that the linothorax is not what the name says, is rather silly. There is a clear distinction between linothorax and spolas, so it's definitely not a leather vest (not to mention that linos means precisely linen... duh!). The two references I remember right now are from Arryan (Alexander) and Polybius (Iphikrates). Xenophon is probably also talking about linothorakes (plural of linothorax) but I am not absolutely certain.

the bit about the lakonian xiphos is so extremely wrong... read Herodotus, read Xenophon and then come to the archeological museums here and check what exactly the lakonian sword is. Duh!

Much to your dismay, thorax is the standard designation for body armour

Skythian and Korinthian IN GREEK (a language you clearly not posses) are written with "K", there is no "C" in modern, Koene or ancient Greek.

Well, since I've already done some work to contribute to this project, here it goes. I won't be adding anything past this, as I see some peeps here are real arses.

http://tovima.dolnet.gr/data/D2005/D0605/v1abc8d.gif
typical molossian (epirote) xiphos (of the short variant)_

http://graphipedia.squares.net/image/Weapon/Sword/Xiphos.jpg
xiphidion

http://www.4hoplites.com/Aichme.jpg
tips (aichme) of dorata (the plural of Dory)

http://www.4hoplites.com/Sarouters.jpg
buttspikes (sauroteres) of dorata

http://www.4hoplites.com/Kopis.jpg
various kopides (plural of kopis)

http://www.4hoplites.com/Xiphos.jpg
long xiphi (plural of xiphos)

http://www.hellenicclub.com.au/images/artifacts/090_HC.jpg
replica of Spartan xiphos (practically a xiphidion)

http://www.xlegio.ru/artilery/gastraphetes.jpg
gastraphetes

by the machera I guess you are referring to something like this
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/Styles.htm
those are modern designs though and they don't even come from Greece (or even the region).

The supposed machaera in this site
www.swords.co.nz/ancient.html
is most certainly not a machaera, but clearly a kopis (as you can see by previous pictures). Not even a machaerion.
 
Ubiquitus, I hope none of that rampage was aimed at me, since I don't see any rudeness in my replies to your posts. I've been working on the mod for some time now, and the only reason I posted here is because the thread was started without my knowledge and I wanted to let people know what I'm doing so they could make suggestions or critics.

If any of that was directed at me, please say so. This thread was started for the betterment of the mod, folks. Not to start arguments among board members.

EDIT: Fenix, I don't remember which e-mail I sent you, make sure you send the map files to [email protected] ok? The other one's not working.
 
Lynores said:
Pjoo said:
Gothic Knight said:
Did macedonian pikemen use the same sword?

No. They had just that and small dagger. Have you noticed that xiphos is thrusting sword?

Have you made pelta(a crescent-shaped wicker shield of peltasts) already? Is cavalry going to use normal spears? what horses?

Yeah, the peltae is done. I might include some small variations of it's designs as well, if I can certify myself about the integrity of the sources. I'm not sure about the pikemen weapons, since I've seen so many different paintings of them, and no descriptions. So if anybody can point me a good link on that, I'd appreciate it. Cavalry will use both regular and sarissa spears, depending on the unit and faction.

I didn't dig into horses yet, and I'm all ears.

Well, I tell you sometime(don't have time now), but sarissa is double pointed macedonian pike an it is about 6 meters long and it was carried in 2 pieces, so it is pretty hard to use it on horseback. Normal hoplite spear(Dory(I trust Ubiquitus about name)) is 'only' 2,7 meters long.

And hoplites' shield is not hopolon, it is aspis. Word hopolon comes from hopla, meaning an item of armour or equipment, but not shield. All armors are hopolon, but not shields. Aspis is about 1 metre across.

Toxon is bow, like Ubiquitus said, cause it means 'bow'. Bowman is Toxotes.

Xyston was used by macedonian companion cavalry, but Palto is pretty good for cavalry in this mod.
 
Ubiquitus said:
This will be my all time super-favorite mod, I guarantee that. But there seems to be a confusion regarding the offensive and defensive gear, so I'll contribute some data (I am a military history professional and my area of specialization lies precisely in ancient greece)Q

- swords
xiphos - the standard greek sword. Straight, double edged, about 55-70 cms long. The Lakonian (spartan) version of the xiphos is much shorter (like 40-50 cm. long).  A longer xiphos was used in the 4th century BC (up to 80 cm. long). The Lakonian sword was sometimes referred to as "xiphidion"
kopis - the curved, mostly used by cavalry (and the later macedonian footmen) falchion-like sword. Single-edged, about 60 to 70 cms long
machera - refers either to a straight, xiphos-like sword, or (more commonly) to a very large knife (like 40-45 cm in length).
Parazonion (or parazoonion) - dagger

- Spears
Dory - the standard hoplite spear. About 2 to 2.5 meters long, with a buttspike and a leaf-shaped tip.
Sarissa - the phalangite pike. About 5 to 6.4 m. long, huge tip, big buttspike
Xyston - the typical cavalry spear, ranging from 2.5 to 3 m. long, complete with buttspike
hippiki (cavalry) sarissa - the cavalry version of the sarissa, same as above but up to 4 m. long
Palto - the typical dual role (javelin/spear) weapon of the cavalry of the Peloponesian war era. About 1.5 m. long, could be either thrown or used as a spear.
Grosphos - the typical javelin of the period. Up to 1.5 meters (usually shorter). Also called "Hyssos" and sometimes "Aechme" (the latter is not very popular, and most of times would refer to just the tip)
Kondos  (or Kontos) - this comes into use in the later hellenistic period and would designate a lance, although it was used also for long (but shorter than sarissas) spears
Doration - light, short (less than 1.80 in length and with a small tip) spear

- Cuirasses
Thorax - the typical metallic cuirass, made of bronze
Linothorax - padded linen thorax, very popular from the 370s BC and on. Came also in luxurious varieties (with plenty of metallic addons for greater protection)
Spolas - hardened or padded leather, extremely popular in all times, was the standard defensive gear for the light troops

- Helmets
Pilos (also refered to as "Lakonikos pilos") - a bronze or iron helmet, shaped like a felt hat. The same name applies to a felt hat
(the rest of the names are modern, because the ancients didn't seem to have had particular designations)
Korinthian helmet - the typical hoplite badass helmet that covers fully the face (save eyes and mouth)
Illyrian helmet - same shape as Korinthian, but does have a large opening in front and leaves the face exposed
Boeotian helmet - a very different helmet, the one used by Alexander's companions
Phrygian helmet (think of Alexander's foot companions)
Causia - the typical hat of the Macedonian greeks (I guess you are including hats as well)

- Shields
"Hoplon" (or aspis) - the typical hoplite shield. 90 cm to 1.10 m. wide, wood coated with three or more layers of bronze, or even (in some occassions) fully of bronze (great protection the latter, but VERY heavy)
Pelte - the light, crescent shaped shield from Thrace, later it meant all the light shields (sometimes even the shield of the Macedonian pezheteroi was called "pelte", besides aspis)
Thureos - Oval shaped shield, modeled after the Galatic designs (was used in the 3rd century BC and on in Greece)

- Other
gastraphetes - a primitive form of the crossbow (or, more likely, the arbalest). Was held and fired from the belly level ("gastros" is the belly).
romphaea - the dacian/thracian falx, in it's greek incarnation.
Toxon - the bow
toxon persiko - the Persian bow, significantly better than the early (5th century) Greek designs
toxon skythiko - the skythian bow, a powerful composite bow, the weapon of choice for the famous Cretan Archers. The Cretans came up with a variant of the skythian bow, the "toxon kritiko", that was even more effective.

This is from the top of my head. If you need any further info, just tell me. Good luck with this project, it's great.

Interesting info =),should help out the mod maker
 
Pjoo said:
Well, I tell you sometime(don't have time now), but sarissa is double pointed macedonian pike an it is about 6 meters long and it was carried in 2 pieces, so it is pretty hard to use it on horseback. Normal hoplite spear(Dory(I trust Ubiquitus about name)) is 'only' 2,7 meters long.

That's exactly what I thought when I read about the sarissophoroi. It mentioned that they were armed with the sarissa and were a heavy cavalry unit. I've also seen that description in wikipedia, grocer and other encyclopedias. If anyone has a different source on this, please let me know.

The two-piece sarissa is already implemented, if you check the previous page you'll see the bronze attachment that brings these two pieces together. There's a link to the model picture in one of my posts.

And hoplites' shield is not hopolon, it is aspis. Word hopolon comes from hopla, meaning an item of armour or equipment, but not shield. All armors are hopolon, but not shields. Aspis is about 1 metre across.

Yeah, according to most sources, hoplon primarily meant any part of their equipment. Aspis was the specific term.

Toxon is bow, like Ubiquitus said, cause it means 'bow'. Bowman is Toxotes.

*nods* Thanks for the info.

Xyston was used by macedonian companion cavalry, but Palto is pretty good for cavalry in this mod.

I'll check it out.
 
Yeah, according to most sources, hoplon primarily meant any part of their equipment. Aspis was the specific term.
Hopolon is part of their armor, but it does not include shield.
 
Hopolon is part of their armor, but it does not include shield.

"An aspis (Ancient Greek Ασπις, IPA [aspis]) is the generic term for the word shield. The aspis, which is carried by Greek infantry (hoplites) of various periods, It is referred as hoplon (Οπλον, [hoplon]). Literally, the word hoplon means:

το όπλον - to Hoplon  : (later generic use) tool of war, including all kind of weapons

το όπλον - to Hoplon  : (early principal meaning) the type of shield that the heavy Greek infantry used to carry in the Hoplite phalanx (Οπλιτική Φάλαγξ) , the Hoplite (Οπλίτης) took his name from his shield (Οπλον)."

Can someone check the veracity of this? I'm positive about the aspis, just check the hoplon if you will.
 
Just tell me, how you are organizin the factions?
like Athens and Sparta?

I would love to see athens get their butt kicked by Sparta  :lol:
 
XaRaDa_BR said:
Just tell me, how you are organizin the factions?
like Athens and Sparta?

I would love to see athens get their butt kicked by Sparta  :lol:

Most of them will be implemented. I didn't make up my mind about the time period yet, possibly a few years before the peloponnesian war. I'm leaning more towards several factions struggling for power rather than two major forces and the other factions having to choose between them. That'd be about the same as having just two factions. Having several factions would also allow for several units and tactical elements to choose from.

Having said that, I think 800-735 BC would be a nice course to take, perhaps even a bit earlier.
 
Ubiquitus:

What the hell is your problem? I disagreed with you, corrected a few of your statements - but I did so respectfully. And you're having a little conniption fit like a pathetic child. Learn how to take criticism, friend. There's no reason to act like a jackass just because someone doesn't agree with your statements.


I am Greek

So what? Being Greek does not give you any more insight into Greek history than anything else. I am -SO- sick of hearing people trot out the "I am of X country and thereore my knowledge of X country's history is clearly better than anyone else's."


I am a pro in the military history field

And I'm supposed to take your word for it? You should know that sounds silly. Statements like this must be demonstrated, not simply stated as if fact. I could say I'm a national football hero. Does that make it true?


But I fear there are too many rude, ungreatful people here who just try to (in your words) bust people's balls, instead of appreciating their hard work.

Oh, I see. So it's 'rude' and 'ungrateful' to simply disagree someone and correct their statements? Get over yourself, man. Really.


I am not absolutely certain about the machaera

In English, the machaira, in that spelling, refers to a kopis-like weapon. Period. The fact that you used a spelling that does not exist ("machera") is not my fault. If you meant some entirely different weapon - you should have said so. I guessed you were talking about the machaira. Either way, you admit that you're not certain, then go on to say that it means 'any short sword.' You're going to have to choose something and stick to it. Your indecisiveness seems to reflect faulty knowledge and unsurety. Not that it does - but it SEEMS to.


also, kopis was indeed used mostly by the cavalry in the Greek area and before Alexander. Read xenophon and check the bloody vases.

Reading Xenophon I can't seem to find any statement to the effect of 'the kopis is a cavalry sword.' How telling.


Do not confuse Greece with Italy and Spain

That's for pointing that out - I didn't realize Italy and Spain weren't the same country as Greece.  :roll:



The existence of linothorax cannot be challenged because many ancient sources talking about warfare, are reffering to them.

Blatantly false. References are scattered, wholly difficult to understand, and have been challenged and re-examined by multiple historians. I don't know of a single one that has claimed 'linothorax' as fact. That seems to be reserved for laymen who don't know any better.


Also, the suggestion that the linothorax is not what the name says, is rather silly.

Yeah, you're right. All those historians are wrong. You're a master of your field. Can I roll my eyes again, or would that be making it too frequent?


so it's definitely not a leather vest (not to mention that linos means precisely linen... duh!).

I don't recall saying the word 'leather' anywhere in there.


the bit about the lakonian xiphos is so extremely wrong... read Herodotus, read Xenophon and then come to the archeological museums here and check what exactly the lakonian sword is. Duh!

...Right. I believe I'm correct. From what I understand about the 'Lakonian' xiphos, from the achaeological side of things and the words of distinguished historians - I'm correct. If that information is wrong - feel free to provide SOURCES that prove you're right. I have no problem with being mistaken on a topic.


Much to your dismay, thorax is the standard designation for body armour

To my dismay? What - am I sad about it? Thorax, so far as I remember, is the -modern- designation for body armour. I seem to recall that it was not used historically. Could I be mistaken? Sure. Provide sources if I am, I'd like to know.


Skythian and Korinthian IN GREEK (a language you clearly not posses) are written with "K", there is no "C" in modern, Koene or ancient Greek.

Last I checked, we were speaking English here. In English - both are spelled with a C. That's what I was referring to, as I assumed you do not speak English natively and I was, therefore, just making it known to you.


I won't be adding anything past this, as I see some peeps here are real arses.

If by 'some people' you mean yourself, then yes. Do you always throw a little fit when someone doesn't agree with you? Seriously, man - your reaction was totally uncalled for. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean you need to fly off the handle and act like a jackass. I know - I've been there. It isn't needed.

Might you really know your stuff? Maybe. in my opinion you'e made some mistakes, and your tone and information leads me to believe you are an amateur in the field. If I'm incorrect - please provide sources to back up your claims. That's all that's needed. I'm not attacking you, I'm not trying to say that you're stupid and don't know anything, or anything of the sort. Don't make it personal or assaultive when it isn't.




By the way, here's an English translation online of Xenophon's Hellenica: http://etext.teamnesbitt.com/books/etext/etext98/hllnc10.txt.html




 
One big problem with the ancient sources of the day is that is was considered very bad literary form to repeat yourself - so writers would use many different words for the same sort of weapon - javelins especially - so as to not be repeating themselves. 
 
Damien said:
Ubiquitus:

What the hell is your problem? I disagreed with you, corrected a few of your statements - but I did so respectfully. And you're having a little conniption fit like a pathetic child. Learn how to take criticism, friend. There's no reason to act like a jackass just because someone doesn't agree with your statements.


I am Greek

So what? Being Greek does not give you any more insight into Greek history than anything else. I am -SO- sick of hearing people trot out the "I am of X country and thereore my knowledge of X country's history is clearly better than anyone else's."

*Cough* ARAGORN *Cough*
 
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