Peace system

[Zorion_no]

My largest issue with diplomacy is the lack of explanation or reasoning, I've learned more about diplomacy and the why of the AI declaring wars/making peace on the forums than I do in game, the game needs to be more transparent about why the faction wants to engage in any diplomacy. e.g. "Our faction has suffered a major defeat, we should sue for peace"

But this was implemented to some degree abit back though.

Where one of the reasons is similar to the one you describe.
"to recover from the hardship of war".
Another is "too many of our lords are imprisoned".

For declaration of war you have "the other side is weak, we should strike while we can".
"we pay too much tribute"

So there is more now since 1.65? than it was.

But overall the "diplomacy" part of the game is "lacking" to put it that way. (Read we've been spoiled by modders added in features in Warband, so not haveing such in Bannerlord is abit "of a step back")(one would have imagined that the devs would have reached out to modders or well just remade the code themselves to make it abit more fleshed out diplomacy.

Read there is already mods for bannerlord that have alot of theese features though, so there's that(I track'em but dont play with'em until the game hits retail)

 

[Antaeus]

Most decisions the AI makes have a logic to me. It's just that they are very mathematical, and don't seem intuitively 'human' in their processing - which perhaps is what is really at the crux of most people's dislike of the war calculations. We end up with the AI making war declarations for shallow tactical aims that to a human seem short sighted and have no real strategic nature to them. They feel like what they are: a series of programmed calculations that don't seem to have a purpose other than responding to the immediate set of numbers.

This makes war declarations tactical, not strategic. The AI calculations are responding to immediate stimulus: How many lords are captive, how much money do we pay them, what is our current power imbalance... they are things that affect the immediate tactical scenario... Whereas most players think of inter-kingdom relations in strategic terms - for their long term goals - I want to control this choke point on the map, I want to unite the empire, I want to establish control over this region because of it's resources... etc. etc.. Sure the AI decision metrics have strategic value - but they aren't long term strategies.

I'm not sure how this can be altered, without somehow giving the factions long term goals (as per Total War). But that starts making factions predictable. *shrug*

 

[Julio-Claudian]

My largest issue with diplomacy is the lack of explanation or reasoning, I've learned more about diplomacy and the why of the AI declaring wars/making peace on the forums than I do in game, the game needs to be more transparent about why the faction wants to engage in any diplomacy. e.g. "Our faction has suffered a major defeat, we should sue for peace"

Yep, still too much hidden from the player.

 

[Gricken]

Most decisions the AI makes have a logic to me. It's just that they are very mathematical, and don't seem intuitively 'human' in their processing - which perhaps is what is really at the crux of most people's dislike of the war calculations. We end up with the AI making war declarations for shallow tactical aims that to a human seem short sighted and have no real strategic nature to them. They feel like what they are: a series of programmed calculations that don't seem to have a purpose other than responding to the immediate set of numbers.

This makes war declarations tactical, not strategic. The AI calculations are responding to immediate stimulus: How many lords are captive, how much money do we pay them, what is our power imbalance... they are things that affect the immediate tactical scenario... Whereas most players think of inter-kingdom relations in strategic terms - for their long term goals - I want to control this choke point on the map, I want to unite the empire, I want to establish control over this region because of it's resources... etc. etc.. Sure the AI decision metrics have strategic value - but they aren't long term strategies.

I'm not sure how this can be altered, without somehow giving the factions long term goals (as per Total War). But that starts making factions predictable. *shrug*

Very well put, I don't know what else there is to add

 

[Julio-Claudian]

Most decisions the AI makes have a logic to me. It's just that they are very mathematical, and don't seem intuitively 'human' in their processing - which perhaps is what is really at the crux of most people's dislike of the war calculations. We end up with the AI making war declarations for shallow tactical aims that to a human seem short sighted and have no real strategic nature to them. They feel like what they are: a series of programmed calculations that don't seem to have a purpose other than responding to the immediate set of numbers.

This makes war declarations tactical, not strategic. The AI calculations are responding to immediate stimulus: How many lords are captive, how much money do we pay them, what is our power imbalance... they are things that affect the immediate tactical scenario... Whereas most players think of inter-kingdom relations in strategic terms - for their long term goals - I want to control this choke point on the map, I want to unite the empire, I want to establish control over this region because of it's resources... etc. etc.. Sure the AI decision metrics have strategic value - but they aren't long term strategies.

I'm not sure how this can be altered, without somehow giving the factions long term goals (as per Total War). But that starts making factions predictable. *shrug*

Totally.
Long term goals could be something like every ruler desiring the conquest of certain cities or factions, so it could change with each new ruler and not always be so predictable. idk

 

[TheLordOfTheDiamond]

I inquired about this topic and it turns out that there are already different ways to modify the war / peace systems of the game. For one, you can mod the DiplomacyModel. More specifically, you can overwrite the GetScoreOfDeclaringWar and GetScoreOfDeclaringPeace to change how profitable a faction would view it to to declare war or peace. (Here you could adjust how much other ongoing wars or war exhaustion / duration matters.)

Having said that, maybe you are looking to directly adjust the thinking frequency handled in KingdomDecisionProposalBehavior.DailyTick or make other adjustments in this part of the logic. If so, you can remove the native behavior and add your own custom one to replace it.

Cheers for sharing that. I will raise it with the relevant people to see if they are aware of it.


Because players requested it (much like they have in the posts I initially responded to). Outside of the hard truce period, the system works like you describe.

It would be nice if you guys could put together a document explaining the process for non-technical users as myself.

 

[dannazgu]

Yes. This is not tied to any score calculation just a hard number.

Would be possible to edit the time of days for a peace treaty in the future? or TW has plans to add more flavor on the Diplomacy feature implemented in the near future? For example, if I'd like that after a war the peace treaty would last for 2-3 years, if something is not add by TW itself could I make it so by change something?

 

[Zorion_no]

Would be possible to edit the time of days for a peace treaty in the future? or TW has plans to add more flavor on the Diplomacy feature implemented in the near future? For example, if I'd like that after a war the peace treaty would last for 2-3 years, if something is not add by TW itself could I make it so by change something?

I dont know how to mod Bannerlord, but I'm guessing its as flexible as Warband was(I could do modest modding there myself by following guides, to tweak such things).

That said if the devs isnt intrested in it, I'm fairly certain that down the line that the modding scene will provide, already there is some mods that tweak diplomacy(alliances, non-agression pact etc).

That said a 2-3 years peace seems abit excessive long for my taste(Dont get me wrong I feel there is "too much war" and too hard to get peace to focus on the sandbox elements of the game(read you can focus on the sandbox elements of the game, but then the kingdome tends to loose any ground its conquered in no time).

 

[dannazgu]

I dont know how to mod Bannerlord, but I'm guessing its as flexible as Warband was(I could do modest modding there myself by following guides, to tweak such things).

That said if the devs isnt intrested in it, I'm fairly certain that down the line that the modding scene will provide, already there is some mods that tweak diplomacy(alliances, non-agression pact etc).

That said a 2-3 years peace seems abit excessive long for my taste(Dont get me wrong I feel there is "too much war" and too hard to get peace to focus on the sandbox elements of the game(read you can focus on the sandbox elements of the game, but then the kingdome tends to loose any ground its conquered in no time).

Well, glad then the game is usually customable, right? For everyone to like and play how they feel like it!

I'd be glad with TW inserted something you could adjust in game for a X Days agreement when trying to make peace, 20 days would be the Vanilla and Norm, but player could try increase that by choosing on the dialogue during game.

That's why this games are so great, no one needs play how the other player enjoy. That's why I avoid Multiplayer games

 

[Zorion_no]

The hard 20 days before war can be declared dont seem to be accurate - read I saved scum to avoid the war instead.

12 days after peace had been engaged - the other faction declared war.

Overall I'm struggling too much to get peace, I'm prolly "playing" it wrong vs how the devs intended it or what not.

But is it just me who "dont find it enjoayble" when both kingdomes start at about 7k strength and after 30 days or less we are 7k still, and they are now 3,3k and yet they have 0 desire for peace.

basically my issue is that 90% of the time I only get peace cause of a 3rd faction declaring war on 1 of us.

Meaning that we end up in a state of constant war, while I get that its "important for the game to have war" its very excessive and just removes the sandbox part read ppl who enjoy this state of war could just do skirmish modes instead?

Sure they keep on hireing more and more mercs as they get decimated(which its seems the devs finally got is counterproductive in the long run).
This just leads to the wars lasting longer, they not being able to make big enough armies to actually have an impact, since the mercs are all over the maps so they cant travel fast enough to meet up with an army.
Thus their failed attempt at reclaiming lost ground weakend them - and we got another castle with our other army instead(why didnt they go defend the one they had vs trying to retake that other?)

Why I feel maybe "attrition" needs to be visible or that it should alos be used to "force" factions into peace.
*Lost land
*raided villages
*Lost battles

Etc, now for some players like me, its endless war and tbh, thats not really fun at all, cause there is the other elements you want to dabble with aswell(doing village quest, clearing bandit lairs etc).

There is also that issue that if you actually leave the faction(as a merc) peace actually follows typically very shortly.
So there is some unbalance I think if you are vassal or merc joining a faction regardless, makes it less likely to want peace.

Also the either 0% or 100% wanting peace dont really make sense.
Those lords close to the frontlines should want peace for instance, so it would be abit more easy to "force" peace if you are as a player fatigued fo the endless/constant warfare.
Yes we can give up on being so in the thick of it etc, but then any or all progress is wiped of, and you end up with haveing the faction pay tribute, or loose land.

From a sandbox perspective though, the lack of peace really is "frustrating".(and yes I'm sure its cause of my playstyle dont mesh with the current vision at TW, but judgeing by other comments I dont feel alone).(Cant wait for this game to be out in retail, so I can finally start useing stable mods.

--

Edit so I just as being a merc left the faction.
Boom 4 days later peace, no big battle or nothing, no new captures etc.

Imo it seems to be the same issue that the mercs play, in not waning peace "quickly enough" even (if I'm a merc in this case).

I think the "power" mercs bring sort of is "too good".

I personally had the best game when I disabled them, then wars/peace was quicker to be had.

now for my playstyle its perpetual war, and last I checked this isnt Wh40k "there is only war". (Small joke)

 

[SadShogun]

The hard 20 days before war can be declared dont seem to be accurate - read I saved scum to avoid the war instead.

12 days after peace had been engaged - the other faction declared war.

Overall I'm struggling too much to get peace, I'm prolly "playing" it wrong vs how the devs intended it or what not.

But is it just me who "dont find it enjoayble" when both kingdomes start at about 7k strength and after 30 days or less we are 7k still, and they are now 3,3k and yet they have 0 desire for peace.

basically my issue is that 90% of the time I only get peace cause of a 3rd faction declaring war on 1 of us.

Meaning that we end up in a state of constant war, while I get that its "important for the game to have war" its very excessive and just removes the sandbox part read ppl who enjoy this state of war could just do skirmish modes instead?

Sure they keep on hireing more and more mercs as they get decimated(which its seems the devs finally got is counterproductive in the long run).
This just leads to the wars lasting longer, they not being able to make big enough armies to actually have an impact, since the mercs are all over the maps so they cant travel fast enough to meet up with an army.
Thus their failed attempt at reclaiming lost ground weakend them - and we got another castle with our other army instead(why didnt they go defend the one they had vs trying to retake that other?)

Why I feel maybe "attrition" needs to be visible or that it should alos be used to "force" factions into peace.
*Lost land
*raided villages
*Lost battles

Etc, now for some players like me, its endless war and tbh, thats not really fun at all, cause there is the other elements you want to dabble with aswell(doing village quest, clearing bandit lairs etc).

There is also that issue that if you actually leave the faction(as a merc) peace actually follows typically very shortly.
So there is some unbalance I think if you are vassal or merc joining a faction regardless, makes it less likely to want peace.

Also the either 0% or 100% wanting peace dont really make sense.
Those lords close to the frontlines should want peace for instance, so it would be abit more easy to "force" peace if you are as a player fatigued fo the endless/constant warfare.
Yes we can give up on being so in the thick of it etc, but then any or all progress is wiped of, and you end up with haveing the faction pay tribute, or loose land.

From a sandbox perspective though, the lack of peace really is "frustrating".(and yes I'm sure its cause of my playstyle dont mesh with the current vision at TW, but judgeing by other comments I dont feel alone).(Cant wait for this game to be out in retail, so I can finally start useing stable mods.

--

Edit so I just as being a merc left the faction.
Boom 4 days later peace, no big battle or nothing, no new captures etc.

Imo it seems to be the same issue that the mercs play, in not waning peace "quickly enough" even (if I'm a merc in this case).

I think the "power" mercs bring sort of is "too good".

I personally had the best game when I disabled them, then wars/peace was quicker to be had.

now for my playstyle its perpetual war, and last I checked this isnt Wh40k "there is only war". (Small joke)

The 20 day forced truce period is between the same faction. E.g. You make peace with Vlandia, Vlandia cannot declare you for 20 days. It does not mean f.e. Khuzait cannot declare war on you. I believe there is a misunderstanding there.
Another important thing is that this "truce" is not forced for the player side but only for AI war decision proposals. So in the previous example you as a player can try to pass a decision which declares war on Vlandia (though chances of it to pass are slim because of other "war-exhaustion" like modifiers)

 

[Zorion_no]

The 20 day forced truce period is between the same faction. E.g. You make peace with Vlandia, Vlandia cannot declare you for 20 days. It does not mean f.e. Khuzait cannot declare war on you. I believe there is a misunderstanding there.
Another important thing is that this "truce" is not forced for the player side but only for AI war decision proposals. So in the previous example you as a player can try to pass a decision which declares war on Vlandia (though chances of it to pass are slim because of other "war-exhaustion" like modifiers)

But thats the problem.
I consistenlty get declared war by the previous faction within less than 20 days.

So if you are 100% sure as the other dev that it shouldnt happend, then yes my game is bugged if I'm the only one that experience it.

Most of the time I've had it happend in 8-12 days.

Typical reason is that the other faction got declared war on by several strong, and wants peace with us for a heavy tribute.
However as you describe after peace is on - Vlandia declares war, then Northern Empire.
The Khuzait who where at war got peace, then think they shouldnt pay that much tribute I'm assuming?

I was at Tyal travelling to Omor after peace with Khuzait had been inititated, before I got to Balgard, I had done a few pitstops on the way, in Sibir and Varnopol, but the travel time from Tyal to Balgard isnt that many days(its abit, but not that many).

So yah next time it happend ingame, I'll just open a ticket then and upload the savefile so you can figure out whats going on.

Note since the other day said it was 20 days of peace, I did a full re-scan/verify on steam and a new start to the game.
Never use mods during.

Note that this is "rare that it happends" but its "frustrating".

Oh and when it did happend I did check the date on when peace was initiated between the 2 faction and when war was declared.
Even if the speed is faster than normal, it was less than 20days(is it 20 ingame days, or technically 10 ingame? since speed of the game is 2x normal almost or what it is)

regardless in this case it was less than 10.

 

[Duh_TaleWorlds]

But thats the problem.
I consistenlty get declared war by the previous faction within less than 20 days.

So if you are 100% sure as the other dev that it shouldnt happend, then yes my game is bugged if I'm the only one that experience it.

Most of the time I've had it happend in 8-12 days.

Typical reason is that the other faction got declared war on by several strong, and wants peace with us for a heavy tribute.
However as you describe after peace is on - Vlandia declares war, then Northern Empire.
The Khuzait who where at war got peace, then think they shouldnt pay that much tribute I'm assuming?

I was at Tyal travelling to Omor after peace with Khuzait had been inititated, before I got to Balgard, I had done a few pitstops on the way, in Sibir and Varnopol, but the travel time from Tyal to Balgard isnt that many days(its abit, but not that many).

So yah next time it happend ingame, I'll just open a ticket then and upload the savefile so you can figure out whats going on.

Note since the other day said it was 20 days of peace, I did a full re-scan/verify on steam and a new start to the game.
Never use mods during.

Note that this is "rare that it happends" but its "frustrating".

Oh and when it did happend I did check the date on when peace was initiated between the 2 faction and when war was declared.
Even if the speed is faster than normal, it was less than 20days(is it 20 ingame days, or technically 10 ingame? since speed of the game is 2x normal almost or what it is)

regardless in this case it was less than 10.

Could you provide a savegame prior to a war being redeclared too early?

 

[Zorion_no]

Could you provide a savegame prior to a war being redeclared too early?

The current warstate in my saves wouldnt be doable? (20++ days or more since last peace was brokered)

But I'll make seperate saves when I have a feeling it could be valid.
Unless you just want the savegame to inspect regardless then I can pop one up.

Or help me understand if the days and or is different.

19 spring is the date we got peace with NE.
Now I log in 3 summer they declare war.

Now if one had the normal 30 day pr month it would have been 11+3 = 14 days.
But in Bannerlord the days is less pr month, so then its even less?

And if the first assumption of it being 14 days or less than 20, then yes I do have a savefile of that now.

Maybe why the suggestion others have said about longer peace period being forced should be a thing after all.

 

[Zorion_no]

The current warstate in my saves wouldnt be doable? (20++ days or more since last peace was brokered)

But I'll make seperate saves when I have a feeling it could be valid.
Unless you just want the savegame to inspect regardless then I can pop one up.

Or help me understand if the days and or is different.

19 spring is the date we got peace with NE.
Now I log in 3 summer they declare war.

Now if one had the normal 30 day pr month it would have been 11+3 = 14 days.
But in Bannerlord the days is less pr month, so then its even less?

And if the first assumption of it being 14 days or less than 20, then yes I do have a savefile of that now.

Maybe why the suggestion others have said about longer peace period being forced should be a thing after all.

I've now made a ticket, on it I have added the url of this, and also provided 2 savefile.s
1st is where war is declared in what I percive as less than 20 days. (Too early war.sav)
2nd is where its prior to wardeclaration (S7.sav)

 

[Duh_TaleWorlds]

The current warstate in my saves wouldnt be doable? (20++ days or more since last peace was brokered)

But I'll make seperate saves when I have a feeling it could be valid.
Unless you just want the savegame to inspect regardless then I can pop one up.

Or help me understand if the days and or is different.

19 spring is the date we got peace with NE.
Now I log in 3 summer they declare war.

Now if one had the normal 30 day pr month it would have been 11+3 = 14 days.
But in Bannerlord the days is less pr month, so then its even less?

And if the first assumption of it being 14 days or less than 20, then yes I do have a savefile of that now.

Maybe why the suggestion others have said about longer peace period being forced should be a thing after all.

With a savegame just prior to a faulty war declaration, it would be possible to debug step by step what is leading up to it and identify where things go wrong.

I've now made a ticket, on it I have added the url of this, and also provided 2 savefile.s
1st is where war is declared in what I percive as less than 20 days. (Too early war.sav)
2nd is where its prior to wardeclaration (S7.sav)

Thank you!

 

[five bucks]

The feedback is confusing for TW because some people have spoken out against the game's random and/or complex "organic" simulated elements leading to wars/peaces that are too short to accomplish anything, while other people complain that enforced periods of peace and war are too deterministic and boring.

I think the ideal middle point is to have structured randomness. Enforced minimum periods for war and peace, and strongly encouraged maximum lengths too, are necessary for good gameplay. The simulation and its random variance can then exist within those boundaries (occasionally going above the upper boundary), because good gameplay should be the first priority for a game, simulation depth second.

For the most fun gameplay, once the player's faction has just concluded a treaty, the player should get to experience at least a week of peace - with everyone - so they have time to get things done. Unless they decide to push hard for war themselves (and we should be able to spend more Influence in a single vote, so the person carrying the faction militarily gets listened to when they say something is a bad/good strategic decision!) But that peace should not last too long, either. Long enough for the player to get some fiefs upgraded, recruit troops, or spend time doing an issue quest that requires some time to complete.

The factor which makes nations aggressively declare war against a faction they think they can defeat because they are strong enough to do so/a faction that is too powerful, should be reduced slightly. This will make periods of peace last longer, to help achieve the above.

To prevent this reduction causing periods of peace which are too long (which rarely will happen sometimes in the game as it stands), there should be a factor where once it has been longer than 30 days without the faction being at war with anyone, the AI will be more likely to vote in favour of declaring war, offsetting that reduced aggression from the above change, and putting it slightly above the current normal level of aggression. This can represent the "warmongering" element within the nobility. Perhaps this element already exists in the AI's decision making, if so it could be increased.

When it comes to settlement of peace, it feels like fiefs taken, successful raids, and living nobles in a faction are the only three factors the AI really takes into account. You can kill millions of troops or take almost every last noble in a faction prisoner and the last guy and his last group of scrappy recruits will keep fighting until YOU pay tribute. And if they're still fighting but don't feel confident in besieging a town, they'll raid. And since raiding is good for the warscore, the game will think they're "winning", and demand that you pay tribute, something which people complain about all the time.

There absolutely MUST be an enforced breakup of AI factions 10 days after they have lost all their fiefs, too: the clans should abandon their faction and join other factions, or go "into exile", i.e. disappear, as it was in Warband.

Finally there should be a cooldown on the AI spamming war votes or peace votes so the player doesn't have to constantly burn influence to stop the AI making dumb strategic decisions. It just isn't fun.

 

[Zorion_no]

The feedback is confusing for TW because some people have spoken out against the game's random and/or complex "organic" simulated elements leading to wars/peaces that are too short to accomplish anything, while other people complain that enforced periods of peace and war are too deterministic and boring.

I think the ideal middle point is to have structured randomness. Enforced minimum periods for war and peace, and strongly encouraged maximum lengths too, are necessary for good gameplay. The simulation and its randomness can then exist within those boundaries (occasionally going above the upper boundary), because good gameplay should be the first priority for a game, simulation depth second.

For the most fun gameplay, once the player's faction has just concluded a treaty, the player should get to experience at least a week of peace - with everyone - so they have time to get things done. Unless they decide to push hard for war themselves (and we should be able to spend more Influence in a single vote, so the person carrying the faction militarily gets listened to when they say something is a bad/good strategic decision!) But that peace should not last too long, either. Long enough for the player to get some fiefs upgraded, recruit troops, or spend time doing an issue quest that requires some time to complete.

The factor which makes nations aggressively declare war against a faction they think they can defeat because they are strong enough to do so/a faction that is too powerful, should be reduced slightly. This will make periods of peace last longer, to help achieve the above.

To prevent this reduction causing periods of peace which are too long (which rarely will happen sometimes in the game as it stands), there should be a factor where once it has been longer than 30 days without the faction being at war with anyone, the AI will be more likely to vote in favour of declaring war, offsetting that reduced aggression from the above change, and putting it slightly above the current normal level of aggression. This can represent the "warmongering" element within the nobility. Perhaps this element already exists in the AI's decision making, if so it could be increased.

When it comes to settlement of peace, it feels like fiefs taken, successful raids, and living nobles in a faction are the only three factors the AI really takes into account. You can kill millions of troops or take almost every last noble in a faction prisoner and the last guy and his last group of scrappy recruits will keep fighting until YOU pay tribute. And if they're still fighting but don't feel confident in besieging a town, they'll raid. And since raiding is good for the warscore, the game will think they're "winning", and demand that you pay tribute, something which people complain about all the time.

There absolutely MUST be an enforced breakup of AI factions 10 days after they have lost all their fiefs, too: the clans should abandon their faction and join other factions, or go "into exile", i.e. disappear, as it was in Warband.

Finally there should be a cooldown on the AI spamming war votes or peace votes so the player doesn't have to constantly burn influence to stop the AI making dumb strategic decisions. It just isn't fun.

This.

Pretty much sums up in better words than I can express.

 

[Kut]

A "war-score" indication bar;

Just like in the "try to reclaim all Empire factions via beating their lore-determined enemies" quest..

Maybe it can help some things...

 

[Zorion_no]

A "war-score" indication bar;

Just like in the "try to reclaim all Empire factions via beating their lore-determined enemies" quest..

Maybe it can help some things...

Or they sort of claim there is a "fatigue" but its not visible, make it visible to the player, but judgeing by it though from my plays, it "dont work" or not in my taste.(but thats my taste and others may have different taste/opinions).(Just fed up with constant/endless chain wars with 0 downtime once you get to a certain size.)