Path of Exile

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Orion said:
When you ask "how many As can you get for a B", your opinion of the item's value is irrelevant, what matters is the market's (i.e. other peoples') opinion.
And who are these other people whose opinions are so much more valuable than mine?
They're the people who are going to be buying what you're selling. Possibly laughing at you for letting them have it for a pittance if you price it too low. Or not buying it, as the case may be, if you price it too high.

Is it not general consensus that determines these prices you can find on websites, and is not a consensus made by individuals with opinions? My opinion is as valuable as the next guy's.
Yes, one opinion is as valid as another when it comes to the value of things. However, one opinion versus the shared opinion of everyone else? Everyone else wins.

The funny thing in PoE is that "market value" is just a bull**** number people tend to agree on, it's the current consensus, but what if you're asking different groups of people? I wouldn't expect you to know this, but the market value of items in trade chat is almost universally higher than on poe.xyz. Nothing is cheaper on trade chat. So clearly there is difference of opinion among many players of the game, as trade chat is always flooded with people trying to sell **** for more.
You're right, I didn't know that, but it makes perfect sense given that you can actually search the auction house, which is something you can't do in trade chat. It's kinda hard to rip people off when your competition that's offering the same goods cheaper is comping up in search results above you.

So what's to be believed? Is an item worth X, or is it worth Y? Who says it isn't more or less among another group? Point is, not all players agree on prices. Funny ****in' concept. It comes down to the individual to decide his price. You may see a similarity between his price and xyz or trade chat or some other site, but in the end he's the one that decided his price. No website forces him to sell his **** for a specific price.
What you don't seem to understand is that buying and selling is not a unilateral process. Yeah, one party can decide his price, but unless the other party agrees, the transaction isn't going to take place. So if you want to actually get any trades, it's best to follow the consensus on what's a reasonable price, otherwise most of your potential customers simply won't be willing to pay what you're asking and they'll look elsewhere. Funny ****ing concept, isn't it?

If your question was supposed to be a trick question, it was a really poorly thought out one. Going to the PoE auction house and looking up the prices is exactly how you figure out how many Facebreakers you can get for a Bringer of Rain. Maybe your Bringer of Rain is more precious to you and you ask for too many.

Not to mention that PoE is not a barter economy at all. That trade of a Bringer of Rain for Facebreakers? Probably not going to trade one for the other directly, are you.
Spoken like somebody who doesn't understand the market! Kevlar could trade his Facebreakers 1 to 1, I'm sure of it. They're 995%, which can't drop anymore. The new range is 600-800%. What are his worth? They can no longer be acquired, and can probably be removed from circulation if some idiot uses a Divine orb on them. They're suddenly infinitely more rare than they were, so really they're more-or-less priceless. They're worth what Kevlar is willing to sell them for, essentially. But please, tell me how I didn't think it through.
Wow, and you accuse me of moving the goal posts? First you ask me how many Facebreakers you can get for a Bringer of Rain, and when I give you the correct answer to your supposedly 'trick' question, you start spouting some nonsense about how the value of an item is determined by an individual. When I explain to you why that's not the case, you come up with this idea that the item in question is in fact something completely different than what you originally said. You didn't say "How many Facebreakers can you get for a legacy Bringer of Rain that's 25% stronger than is currently possible and can't drop anymore". You said "How many Facebreakers can you get for a Bringer of Rain", period. If you'd made it clear that you were referring to a legacy one that's significantly stronger and that can't drop anymore, then yes, of course I would have said the owner can dictate the price and the price volatility is going to be enormous. But you didn't make that clear. So that's your failure, not mine. I answered the question you asked and I answered it correctly. Maybe you meant to ask a different question, maybe one about a legacy Bringer of Rain. Now I don't know why you didn't ask that question. Maybe you were trying to deliberately mislead me (note: not the same thing as posing a trick question), maybe you just weren't able to express yourself clearly. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that you need to understand that I can only respond to what you say, not what you think or mean. You said nothing about a rare legacy Bringer of Rain, you were talking about any damn Bringer of Rain. You don't get to go "no, but I meant this, so you're wrong". No, you're wrong for not saying what you meant.

You're going to use the orbs as a medium of exchange.
Holy ****ing **** read the above. No orbs involved.
Holy ****ing ****, read the above. And learn the basic principles of having a rational, reasoned discussion. I would suggest starting with making your point clearly, followed by the advanced concept by conceding a point when it's refuted instead of backpedaling. Saying "I didn't make that clear, let me rephrase it" earns respect. What you're doing earns nothing but scorn and ridicule.

No, I haven't.
Yes you have. It went from "is player trading important" to "are the mechanics efficient enough for easy player trading." That's shifting the ****in' goalposts for sure. Player trading is important even if the game's systems don't make it as easy as it could be, but you said it clearly isn't important because the only trading systems in the game itself are chat and a trade menu. Bull****, and I explained why it's important twice now. Some things you just can't get from vendors, so if you want them and don't have them then you're looking at farming your life away or trading with other people. Practicality dictates trading.
Oh good lord... Really? I said that trading isn't important because the trading tools are crap? Where did I say that? Quote me where I said that. I'll make it easy for you, I didn't say anything of the sort. I said that trading is not supposed to be important. Read my post again, as many times as it takes you to understand what I'm saying. "Is" is not the same thing as "ought". Learn the difference.

Moving on, yes, trading is important in PoE. But the tools for it are crap. So the game is badly designed. Are you with me here? If something is important in a game but the tools the game gives you for handling it are inadequate, the game is badly made. Logical, yes? Now how is it badly made? As I said previously in the post you're referring to, I happen to think the designers gave us all the tools necessary for playing the game the way it's supposed to be played. Now that means, as I also said, that the need to trade, while important at the moment, is itself a flaw that needs to be remedied. The fact that trading is important is the flaw. Trading is not supposed to be important. Is that clear? There is of course also the alternative view that trading is indeed supposed to be important, but in that case it's the lack of proper trading tools that is a flaw and that needs to be remedied. However, in that case I would question the developers' decision to focus on adding things like gimmicky optional side areas and player houses in favor of fixing a core aspect of the game.

I really can't put it any more clearly than that. If you still aren't able to comprehend it, I'm afraid we're at an impasse.

To borrow a phrase, if I may, this is why I think you're an idiot. You come into this discussion assuming you're right, and everything I say that isn't agreement must therefore be at least partially wrong. You assume that you have refuted my claims while still attempting to dispute them. If your claims were right, would they not be self-evident? Why, then, do you continue to argue? Surely there is some uncertainty or this is an entire waste of effort. Unfortunately, you assume you are right in all things, evidence to the contrary. You don't come into anything with an open mind. You're a ****ing brick wall, too much effort to take down and for no gain, when I could just walk around.
Okay, so now you're moving away from the topic of discussion and making it personal. Nevertheless, I will oblige you.

You come into this discussion assuming you're right.
Of course I do. Newsflash, everyone does. You assume that your views are correct because if you didn't assume that, they wouldn't be your views. Nobody believes things they think they're wrong. So what you said there is "you come into the discussion thinking that your views are your views". Yes, they are. My views are my views. No point in denying that, though also no value in pointing it out.

and everything I say that isn't agreement must therefore be at least partially wrong
If I assumed that then there would be no point in talking to you and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You assume that you have refuted my claims while still attempting to dispute them. If your claims were right, would they not be self-evident?
Well yes, they are self-evident. The fact that you fail to see that is what makes you so frustrating to talk to. Which mostly comes down to your failure to understand plain English and your ignorance of how a reasoned argument should be constructed, resulting in bizarre misinterpretations of my views and completely nonsensical responses that have nothing to do with what I actually said. See further down for yet another example. I'm being very patient in this particular discussion and explaining things at length instead of just using my usual response to that sort of thing along the lines of "learn to read, moron" because I've found it tends to get me warnings from moderators for some reason.

Why, then, do you continue to argue?
Mostly because I find it fun, and also because I like finding out what's true and what isn't (which is itself fun for me). Figuring things out exclusively in the echo chamber of one's own head is difficult. The process is much more efficient with the help of an opponent.

Unfortunately, you assume you are right in all things, evidence to the contrary.
That's just blatantly false. Read the discussion again, you'll find several places where I conceded that you were right about this or that. Admittedly I don't dwell on it and shower you with praise at length. Once a point is settled it ceases to be interesting and there's not really anything more to say about it.

You don't come into anything with an open mind. You're a ****ing brick wall, too much effort to take down and for no gain, when I could just walk around.
And yet you're continuing to bang your head against the wall. Given that it's a completely voluntary activity, that leads me to believe you must also derive some measure of satisfaction or pleasure from it.

Go play Diablo 3, which, if you would care to remember, was for a time reduced to a barter economy because of economic conditions like hyperinflation rivaling the Weimar Republic. Clearly it was implemented so well!
Again you haven't the faintest idea what I was talking about. Is it really so hard? Do I really need to quote my own post to remind you that I was talking about the trading tools the game gives you? Inflation in games is a question of balancing how quickly players are able to create currency on the one hand and how quickly currency sinks are able to destroy it on the other. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether a game has a searchable auction house or not, nor whether it uses gold or a byzantine system of orbs for currency. PoE's economy is stable simply because its money sinks are very effective, quite unlike early Diablo 3, which gave a steady supply of cash and nothing to spend it on. Now before you say anything, no, this has nothing to do with the fact that PoE's orbs also have a crafting use. As I said earlier, you could have an NPC or a crafting station perform the same crafting operations for an equivalent gold fee and it would make no difference whatsoever. It's destroying currency either way. No, what makes PoE's money sinks so effective is that the game is quite stingy with currency drops and all the crafting operations are random, so it takes a large amount of currency to get a good result.

One more thing. I'm re-reading this last paragraph (which I guess is now second to last) for the last time before I submit the post and something occurs to me. Could it be that the point of the incomprehensible orb system is to disguise just how stingy PoE is with currency drops? Suppose the currency orbs were converted into their equivalent value in gold, their crafting functions moved to a crafting station that charges a gold fee, and the game just dropped gold instead of currency orbs (i.e. instead of a wisdom scroll you get 5 gold, etc.). Would players balk at the prices of crafting in relation to how much gold drops?  Is it the case that PoE's money sinks are as effective as they are, that being very, because the currency system is extremely hard to grok and the players don't even realize how much cash the sinks are sucking out of their pockets? Because in early Diablo 3 it always felt like you weren't getting any damn loot, and the game still went into an inflation spiral. For PoE's economy to remain stable, it would have to be even more stingy with its currency, and that seems hard to imagine given that even Diablo 3 felt like it was hardly worth the effort. So what the PoE devs did was they disguised just how little money you're getting and how much everything cost behind a system of currency that obfuscates even how much money you currently possess. Could that be the case? You're knowledgeable about these things, is there any actual data on how much currency drops in PoE?
 
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Drop_Rate

That's all I can really dig up on it on short notice.

Highlights:

Increased Item Rarity % modifiers ...

This modifier has no effect on the number or type of currency items, scrolls, or gems that drop since they have no rarity like normal, magic, rare or unique.
There is a penalty to the chance of currency items (scrolls, orbs, etc.) dropping in areas with a monster level more than two levels lower than your character level. For each additional level that you have compared to the area's monster level+2, the chance of a currency item drop is reduced by 2.5%.
...
For the purposes of this penalty, your level is never considered to be higher than 68.
 
Not really what I was looking for. Checking the wiki is the first thing I thought of. I was hoping for information along the lines of "on average at level 70, one hour of killing mobs yields x number if wisdom scrolls, y number of portal scrolls, etc.". I doubt anyone actually bothered to measure that, honestly.
 
Probably because it is completely random  :roll:

I literally have a complete row of ID scrolls in my stash (12x40=480), unless you are identifying every single item you will most likely have tons to spare. Once you are level 60+ you can start to do a vendor recipe that will give you two chaos orbs for a complete set of armor that is unidentified and item level 60+ so I don't even really need my ID scrolls at this point.
 
If you're having trouble getting by, try trading transmutation stones stacks to vendors for 160 scrolls, other currencies wield similar results. If you don't have other currencies you could always buy some 160:1 chaos is the usual ratio, otherwise try to get more +quantity gear and it should help with the currency drops (scrolls included) quite a bit. 
 
Ringwraith #5 said:
Kevlar said:
Probably because it is completely random  :roll:
I suggest you look up what "on average" means. :roll:
It's unfeasible for any small group of players to compile accurate information on the subject. I was looking around a bit after I posted the wiki info to see if I could get you some more details, and all I managed to turn up was "divine orbs drop less than exalted robs." This was apparently announced by a dev. It's noteworthy because divine orbs still sell for less than exalted orbs despite being more rare. To my original point, there were many testimonies in threads I checked from players who had played several characters up to 60+ and never saw a divine orb drop, yet there was one guy who had 2 exalted orbs drop for character by the time he was level 23, and he had a divine orb shortly after. Clearly, YMMV. You would need to perform a large-scale test with a very large population of players who aren't allowed to use +item quantity gear for the duration of the test and who would have to make records of what drops for them. Small-scale tests will vary wildly and their results can't be trusted.
 
:mad: I hate Rhoa's with a passion, another lvl 80 dead this one had an alpha's howl though. I guess the map mod 95% increased damage as lightning and rhoa with increase phy aura was an assured death, the damn thing circled around my minions and rushed straight for me.
 
Notsure said:
:mad: I hate Rhoa's with a passion, another lvl 80 dead this one had an alpha's howl though. I guess the map mod 95% increased damage as lightning and rhoa with increase phy aura was an assured death, the damn thing circled around my minions and rushed straight for me.
Rhoas are indeed the scourge of Wraeclast. Everyone seems to hate Devourers, imo they are not even remotely as dangerous or annoying as Rhoas.
 
What surprised me the most is he totally ignored my minions and darted for me. I shouldnt have done that zana daily in the first place, lesson learned  :grin: at least i have some gear to start over its a shame it gets so boring lvling without a guild.
 
kosmik said:
Notsure said:
:mad: I hate Rhoa's with a passion, another lvl 80 dead this one had an alpha's howl though. I guess the map mod 95% increased damage as lightning and rhoa with increase phy aura was an assured death, the damn thing circled around my minions and rushed straight for me.
Rhoas are indeed the scourge of Wraeclast. Everyone seems to hate Devourers, imo they are not even remotely as dangerous or annoying as Rhoas.
They pretty much have the same mechanic, except u can't see the devourer before it's too late.
 
Made my own map device  :oops:
D6F9EDA44C76E23575BCCF27F64F3E63F978268F

Also I did a little RMT to make my char look cool
026E0C67422D96A86490A3DFBA10C24B629646EC


This is my 84 incinerator. I'm going to try to kill Atziri in a couple of lvls (this is on beyond league). I might also try to go for 5/8 challenges to get the MTX reward, though I don't see myself killing Abaxoth End of All Things...
 
How different is Atziri and the uber version ? i had collected parts while leveling but the fight seemed brutal without the right spec.
 
Notsure said:
How different is Atziri and the uber version ? i had collected parts while leveling but the fight seemed brutal without the right spec.
I haven't done either, so I cant say. Check the wiki. I'm pretty sure it's the same thing though, just more life/more damage (uber that is).

I remember one guy in beyond league was going to attempt uber on stream, but he died to the first pack of trash mobs  :mrgreen:

RIP 6 link shavs and gear worth 50ex +


What build did you try atziri with and at what level?
 
I haven't tried her but i was watching a streamer do it in SC and the damage she does seemed insane if you don't have very high fire resist. I was Raging spirit but as i said i died in one hit to a rhoa and havent bothered too much since. Ive been playing archage instead. PoE isn't bad by any mean but it does get repetitive after a while.
 
So I had forgotten how much fun this game is til last week or so.    Now I'm running a scion who uses incinerate to, well, incinerate anything that comes near.  It's probably the most amusing build I've played, and I have ****e armour so it's staying interesting.
 
Why should I give a ****? Did they buff drop rates, overhaul the currency system to be less byzantine, and/or overhaul the implement a trading system?
 
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