Patch Notes e1.5.9

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Ser Jon

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
AI lords death chances really do need to be reduced. Everyone be dying out here.

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It's not just the AI lords, but any higher than a looter AI. I've seen my knights get felled by 1 rock. It's hilarious, but annoying.
 

AndrewArt

Squire
^ rocks are blunt damage so they only get wounded at least. I'm fine with looters posing a bit of a threat, because if they were too easy then game would become boring. I do like the current balance honestly. Lowly units posing a threat makes the game not become a F1+F3 sleepfest, although armor effectiveness should indeed be boosted a bit (against blunt damage as well). But, having minimum 3 lords die per big battle is pretty bad and makes the game unworthy to play in the end game, so I hope it won't stay like this for long... I'm sure if there were any bugs they would have been found by now, so maybe it's time to reduce death chance for lords and companions finally...
 

Ser Jon

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
It's not really about wanting lower units to not pose a threat—Pendor roving peasant armies anyone? lol—it's more about adjusting it so the more elite troops don't fall like snowmans, dead or unconscious, as much as they do.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Master Knight
Are you that disrespectful to people when you talk to them face to face?

I would guess you're not because your afraid of getting your teeth knocked down your throats.
When people are a customer/patient they are very often as rude as they like and it's very rare in a developed country for a employee or service provider to retaliate at all, let alone with violence which would be a fast track pass to prison, law suit, let alone loss of income and future income greatly reduced.
The more stressful and "conflict likely" the job the more harshly retaliating is viewed, because e you singed up for, you should know better.

When they get what they expect sane people are nice and say the most wonderful worthless complements and praise. When they don't they let out stress and blab blah equally worthless noise. They'll be back anyways. It's not mutually excusive and the same people flip flop in the same situations because they just feel good/bad.

I just want people to treat the devs like they would expect to be treated by customers of the companies they work for.
Oh **** no you don't. Expect the "unexpected" lol

Defending devs trying to do their jobs is trolling now? Insulting them is "brutally honest".
I think if you posted this stuff a few days sooner it would not seem trolly, but I admit I thought "why is he saying all this now?" since the thread was kind of tame for a few days after the [not sarcasm] very appreciated info that there would be no update last week [not sarcasm]. It's like you missed the timing to jump in while the white night virtue signal was up (it's like a bat sign?) and just did it too late so it reads like stirring the **** pot up.
 

Grank

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
I don't know man. It feels really good to ride amidst the thick of battle to cut down the enemy general with my badass glaive like freaking Guan Yu. It's such a reward to see them die from it.
 

Bob Gnarly

Sergeant at Arms
I don't know man. It feels really good to ride amidst the thick of battle to cut down the enemy general with my badass glaive like freaking Guan Yu. It's such a reward to see them die from it.
It's a good feeling, won't argue there.

The above mentioned mod has a few options, so you can still be rewarded with lords deaths, just reduce the chance so it's not so high.
 

Ser Jon

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I don't know man. It feels really good to ride amidst the thick of battle to cut down the enemy general with my badass glaive like freaking Guan Yu. It's such a reward to see them die from it.

Agreed. I do love executing captured lords and potentially risking it myself, just wish it happened a little less than it does.
 

Julio-Claudian

Knight at Arms
You could have high tier troops, lords and the player being taken out with one hit if they just made armour work and implemented this:

It would feel so much less stupid. And you wouldn't have to stab a guy seven times through the middle of the face to kill him.
 

Grank

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
Agreed. I do love executing captured lords and potentially risking it myself, just wish it happened a little less than it does.
You see, I wouldn't mind lowered death rate in battle if executing prisoners weren't so punishing to my reputation. Killing them in battle is a good way to get rid of an enemy without being hated by everyone in the realm.
 

Ser Jon

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
You see, I wouldn't mind lowered death rate in battle if executing prisoners weren't so punishing to my reputation. Killing them in battle is a good way to get rid of an enemy without being hated by everyone in the realm.

That's a good point. Perhaps that's the reason it's so high right now.
 

AndrewArt

Squire
You see, I wouldn't mind lowered death rate in battle if executing prisoners weren't so punishing to my reputation. Killing them in battle is a good way to get rid of an enemy without being hated by everyone in the realm.
Maybe there should be some sort of system that justifies executions. A bounty system of sorts. The more a lord raids your villages/sieges your castles, and kills your companions/family members/lords, the less the relation penalty should be for executing him. It would be cool to see a little icon depicting such information on a lord so that you know who's F-ing you over the most. Can give it colors like this: green (no bounty, unjustified execution), yellow (slightly justified), orange (highly justified), red (extremely justified).

People that just raid your villages etc (petty things)would justify for an execution, but definitely not as much, but it can stack up in time if they do it a lot for years. As for killing your family/lords, it would reduce penalties of killing the lords a lot more, making it more of a justified execution. But the same way, if you execute a lord that hadn't really done anything to you directly or very little then the penalties would be more severe. And we also need their traits to matter [-honorable (good traits) + positive relations] with you would decrease probability for them to do actions that would make their execution justifiable (but there's still a chance), and [dishonorable (bastard traits) and - negative relations] would increase likelihood of them doing such actions. It's not too in-depth or complex, it would just breathe some well-needed life into the world... otherwise I don't understand the point of having traits to begin with, if they don't influence anything apart of some dialogue success chances...

The same way a player should be punished - if he just goes around and executes everyone and raids/pillages, then the lords owning certain fiefs/or faction rulers will find it justifiable to execute the player eventually if they manage to capture him. They could also hire mercenaries to specifically go after high-bounty targets. And finally we would have some main character deaths... The bounty would increase more the more renown you get, as well. But if you killed a bunch of lords you would also gain more renown from that. I mean, this system can be really cool if TW just considers the ideas a bit! If they do this then justifiable executions would be a more preferable idea of characters dying rather that dying so easily on the battlefield. Yes, death on battlefield should also happen, but make them more rare. And executions (by both player and lords) would make for a very interesting and dynamic relation system going on. The more "bastard" a lord is, the more chances he does unjustified executions as well, so you better watch out not to lose to such, or your heir might have to revenge you one day and you won't live to see it. I mean, they can make such a good system, it feels like a shame not to try to implement it.
 
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Grank

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
The thing is, death in battle works in your favor as long as you're winning, and that's great fun. So much that I wish it were higher instead (that'd be bad I know). I don't care for my enemies. Them being gone from this world is very satisfying. As for my allies potentially dying in battle? I don't care for them either. There's no inter-personal relationship like in Warband. I have no friends here. As long as their clan remains, my allies can die for all I care. As for companions, I can always just get more if by chance they do die.

People will die for me to have fun.
 

AndrewArt

Squire
The thing is, death in battle works in your favor as long as you're winning, and that's great fun. So much that I wish it were higher instead (that'd be bad I know). I don't care for my enemies. Them being gone from this world is very satisfying. As for my allies potentially dying in battle? I don't care for them either. There's no inter-personal relationship like in Warband. I have no friends here. As long as their clan remains, my allies can die for all I care. As for companions, I can always just get more if by chance they do die.

People will die for me to have fun.
yeah so you feel like that because of the disconnection between player and NPCs. There is no connection to companions either atm, I really don't care about them at all... Just hire them and put them into a settlement so they gain relations for you, they might as well not even exist. That's why they need more personality and liveliness for NPCs. My reason for wanting less deaths on the battlefield are purely because I'm afraid the game will become too easy once I kill everyone in the world, it feels OP. That's why I never execute, but still, too many die in battle. I just want a balanced and sensical experience, and death surely has its place but it needs to make more sense and feel more significant - emotionally especially. So less of a death chance would also help, but it's definitely not enough. Maybe for balance purposes yes, but I think we need a little more if we want the game to make us care about NPCs again

And personally I'm not sure what TW can do. Better dialogue and stories?
I think some quality of life changes for companions would help as well. Give them option to upgrade armor/weapons on their own, like in warband. Right now it just feels like a pain to equip each one individually when they can die anyway, and they're weaker than normal troops. If they at least changed their own armor and weapons (based on your choices for them), it would make them feel a tad bit more alive and diverse.

Companions are also not really needed to fulfill any role inside a party. I can do it all myself.. some steward, some leadership, some scouting... a few combat skills... There is literally 0 reason to go up to 300 where it becomes grindy as hell. And it wouldn't even matter because end-game perks are party-leader specific or personal, so what's even the point of having a medic when you can go half-way yourself? And you have more survival chances than your companions in this long grind... so I get that TW wanted to make a party require companions for different roles, but honestly, I see no reason to do so. I found the algorithm behind learning limits and now I will plan my skills ahead to get "just enough" combat (for certain perks) etc. I won't waste my points anymore and I definitely won't try to reach 330 skill in anything, because it's very grindy and unenjoyable, there is no reason to do so.
 
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Grank

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
yeah so you feel like that because of the disconnection between player and NPCs.

And personally I'm not sure what TW can do. Better dialogue and stories?
Yes. Though it's a flaw, I'll have fun with it. I believe once they fix the relationship issue, the death rate itself wouldn't be a problem. It will simply make people think more about battles and death. Like letting go a friendly enemy before a battle (we have NEVER done this) or trying not to rekt them so hard in battle.

Also, it's not that hard to fix. If lord relations are tied to individual lords instead of the clan, it will solve the problem. We will build friendship with lords as naturally as we did in Warband. They can even expand this by implementing "inherited relations" as in, if the fathers get along, the children will have higher default relations. If you execute some boy's daddy, they will hate you by default the moment they become adult. Then it will be even more satisfying to kill the boy too.
 

AndrewArt

Squire
Can I also say, Tactics has a very scummy way of gaining skills in? Step 1: Create big army with your innocent co-lords. Before the next step you can also grind leadership experience with this army. Step 2: Find a big enemy army. Step 3: run into them multiple times, tell them they're the ones that should surrender, then run away like a little baby - each time sacrificing like 80 troops or so - repeat, and enjoy your Tactics experience I guess? I mean, sure. Easy way to get +10 party size perk at least.

Maybe your lords should start getting upset if you keep sacrificing their troops to the enemy like that. After something like 3 actions like this they should just leave your army. I don't want this to be the Tactics meta for all my next playthroughs, it's a little weird.

Edit: Make tactics sacrifice cost Army Cohesion or Influence - this would make it non-abusable. It would make sense to have to use influence to convince other lords to sacrifice their troops like that
 
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