Passive perks are not distinguishable enough

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Ikea Knight

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Passive perks are not visible to the opponent and that's an issue.


Take for example the Menavlion Infantry:


As you can see, the equipment doesn't change for the menavlion infantry depending on the perk.

This makes the game more random.
  • With the new perk system as a cavalry player it is very important to know if a unit has the cavalry breaker / hunter / big game hunter perk.
    For most units that is indicated by their euipment. Heavy units like the Legionary get a spear which is unique to the corresponding passive. The issue is that the units still deal bonus damage to horses WITHOUT the spear. If your horse gets massive damage by a player and there is no indication for why he does it's random and feels weird.
    Best example would be the Big Game Hunter wheere you get a throwing spear but you still do increased damage to horses without it.
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  • perks should influence decisionmaking but they can't.
    In the case of the Menavlion Infantry there are two perks that have no visual distinction that have an effect on infantry fights.
    The "Shield Breaker-Perk" increases the Menavlions damage against shields and recudes damage taken from melee attacks while "Armor Padding-Perk" decreases damage taken from blunt weapons and recudes damage taken from melee attacks.
    That's two information I'd like to know before I get to engage in melee. If I know the enemy is using Shield Breaker I might decide to use a Bastard Sword - If he has a the padded armor perk I might want to use a sword or axe instead of a mace.
    Obviously you can't account for all situations in a quick battle. But you should be able to evaluate your decision making at least AFTER the engament. (For example on a death screen)
  • Some perks are distinctive but not nearly distinctive enough. Have a look at some of the quivers in the game.

    I doubt that a player can really make out what kind of passive these archers use from a distance - even though depending on your unit it might be very important. And while it's probably hardest to notice on quivers a lot of the of the perks just add one equipable item. In battle that is might be really hard to notice for a player even though perks have a huge impact. For example the only difference between a Legionary with Shield Wall or Veteran is an axe.


There are a couple more things that are less important but I'd like to mention anyway:

Afaik one of the key reasons for the class system was to make units more distinguishable. You see what you get. A peasant won't be running around with a twohander and a knight doesn't come with a pitchfork. The units were streamlined but it was also obvious what you're facing. These passive perks just bring chaos on confusion.

Some perks are really boring. Mostly the cavalry suffers from that: The small shield perk just gives you a shield without other perks while heavy archers get the same shield plus passive boni.
I understand that this was done nerf light cavalry but it's boring and won't necessarily work for competetive play were equipment dropping is part of the gameplay. Why not just just add a small shield to the base equipment but try nerf the cavalry in other ways.
For example the Cathapract now always comes with a shield but he can't use it with his Kontos while still gaining other boni. Now the Kontos is a perk that people might actually try out on the cathaprakt.
Some perks like the shield one the light cav are simply too good not to use them ( if you don't have a work around) other examples might be the Masked Nightmare for the Khuzait Lancer which has two laughable alternatives or the heavy lance on the Mamluke since couching is a lot easier and reliable than using a spear.


All in all I like the idea of the passive perks. But they need to be distinctive and visible to avoid confusion and frustration. Some perks seem to be too good not to have them and others seem very boring or bad. (Nobody needs you Sturgian Short Sword wtf...) I just feel that the ideas for the perks were not fully thought through and while I like the intended nerf on Skirmishers and Cavalry it feels rather rushed and was implemented with full disregard to players picking up items ( and so ruining the one distinguishable thing about passive perks)

Also the improved armor perk is hardly distinguishable from the normal version on some models. In case of the Cathapract there isn't any difference at all.

I will fix the spelling tomorrow it's pretty late here :iamamoron:
 

XDaron

Sergeant Knight
Since this is more important in small competitive modes like skirmish and captain, maybe they can display the perks of each player on the tab menu next to the names.

wouldn't solve the problem, but it would help somewhat
 

Moth_Queen

Recruit
It is already a bad idea to throw in "bonus damage to X", because it breaks the visual logic and setup like some retarded %-based mmo.

I died when I saw a money-making perk for Khergit peasant. Come on... What's next? Healing?

This was so useless...
 

Alfonso_M

Squire
I agree completely. Either passives perks have a notorious change in the loadout so other players can notice it by looking at them or remove them from the game.

Just hope it doesnt take six months to change it, like crush though...
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
I agree and it was pointed out in the combat tests. I think it mostly works when it involves equipment change, but some classes have no visible indications regardless of perk.
 

Horatius

Sergeant at Arms
WBNWVC
Lmao who thought this was a good idea. This is nearing crush through territory of idiocy as it is just frustrating.

This isn't LoL where you can equip a trinket and have higher chance of crits.

This is just a low effort move to make the game more balanced. It's actually stupid which does fit right up the street of TW.
TW always say they don't want to do things half arsed and do it properly, then you start adding combat abilities to a medieval game. An awful shortcut to take.
 
I agree with the fact that we should see the passive perk of a player just by looking at him. The thing is how are they going to do that with the customisation system coming in 1.6.2 👀
 

Rangah

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
Perk system feels like a bandaid to try and cover up actual problems, I really, really do not like it, you can't convince me that having MOBA-esque passives in Mount&Blade multiplayer will make for good gameplay.

If nothing else, swing speed increase perks absolutely have to go.

sigh
 

ParzivaI

Veteran
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
It is already a bad idea to throw in "bonus damage to X", because it breaks the visual logic and setup like some retarded %-based mmo.

I died when I saw a money-making perk for Khergit peasant. Come on... What's next? Healing?

This was so useless...
I died when i saw they removed the pike from volgier and gave it to the peasants...
 

Zarthas

Knight
I don't understand why passives don't come with a cape or headgear change. Just something cosmetic so you can tell what they have. TWs design process is absolutely insane.
 

Mushbeast

Knight
I don't understand why passives don't come with a cape or headgear change. Just something cosmetic so you can tell what they have. TWs design process is absolutely insane.
I suppose that wouldn't work well with their new skin system. It's ridiculous though, I remember their post from way back about how the class system would make each player easily distinguishable in their abilities, which is now out the door with passive perks and a skin system anyway.

After not playing for a while it's kind of funny watching the development of this game. I just don't think I can touch it again until full-release or custom servers are out, as the developers just constantly keep shooting themselves in the foot.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
I suppose that wouldn't work well with their new skin system. It's ridiculous though, I remember their post from way back about how the class system would make each player easily distinguishable in their abilities, which is now out the door with passive perks and a skin system anyway.

After not playing for a while it's kind of funny watching the development of this game. I just don't think I can touch it again until full-release or custom servers are out, as the developers just constantly keep shooting themselves in the foot.
Exactly! :roll:

Callum said:
  • Making troops distinctive enough with a glance you know all about what you are facing. Capabilities, gear, etc.
giphy.gif
 

Greedalicious

Grandmaster Knight
WB
I suppose that wouldn't work well with their new skin system. It's ridiculous though, I remember their post from way back about how the class system would make each player easily distinguishable in their abilities, which is now out the door with passive perks and a skin system anyway.

After not playing for a while it's kind of funny watching the development of this game. I just don't think I can touch it again until full-release or custom servers are out, as the developers just constantly keep shooting themselves in the foot.
Thats never really been relevant anyway. Look at lets say Cataphract and tell me what horse hes using as its barreling down at you at either 194,181 or 173 speed. Improved armor also doesnt change the look of the armor for Cataphract.
 

Zarthas

Knight
Thats never really been relevant anyway. Look at lets say Cataphract and tell me what horse hes using as its barreling down at you at either 194,181 or 173 speed. Improved armor also doesnt change the look of the armor for Cataphract.
I always figured that was negligence/laziness/a bug/lack of attention to detail rather than a design choice. I admit that I am unable to tell at this point what TW has done intentionally, what is a bug, and what they just plain didn't think about.
Half the time when you select Improved Armor with Brigands in Captain they spawn with the Better Axe also and I think I'm literally the only person who has ever noticed. I've refused to bring it up because I'll take any buffs I can get with them.
After last December's update Captain troops no longer individually pick from the possible pool of equipment, they instead all pick together on one roll. If the idea was to enforce uniformity so players could tell what troops had what perks, why have two possible sets at all? Reported it, but TW never acknowledged whether this was a bug, a feature, or they just didn't notice.
 

Aliaksandr

Veteran
In my opinion, update 1.6.1 severely slashed the realism and the potential for progress of players in the captains mode, adding child casualness (perks) and arcade (the transience of battles due to the increase in speed and damage) that prevents the dispersion of the tactical arsenal.
Well, I'm not a child and I appreciate realism and tactical freedom in games and in this part the patch upset me. @TaleWorlds please fix this.
 

TheBard ✂

Salt Knight
Master Knight
1.6.1 sum up on what should be done about this new perks by bard:

1) "Visual cues" ez fixed by display the second magic perk somehow on top next to the icon. By making the avatars smaller you actually have laid the foundation to do that easily, there would be enough space. With that you can have this MOBA-style stuff, but it needs to be declared at round start/respawning of the unit so no stupid stuff happens and the game comes down to Rock Paper Scissors on the second spawn. Let's hope this wont take another 6 months until any solution for this is in the game.

2) The damage spears deal right now to mounts should've been there from the start, stabbing with Throwing Spears 50% increase to mounts, normal Spears 75%, Long Spears 100%, Pikes 75% to take their reach and high base damage into account. If this would've been in from the start the game would've been way way better instead of having one year dealing unreliable damage between 40-100 + cav laughing at you when they reliable can blackbar or oneshot you with upstabbing your face as you fail the rearing, forcing literally every other class to resort to ranged gameplay to get rid of the horses.
If Cav chooses to disrespect pointy stick, it deserves to get their race cars taken away!

3) I don't mind many of the perks, granting the +4 Improvement on Armor for secondary melee weapons (which can be shared in the team - that is something which is good imo) is a good start to encourage this actually. The problem we have right now is that some weapons are straight not worth it. To give examples: I) Vlandia Axe is too short and you can just stick to the sword, II) Sturgia Sword is unnecessary as the Light Cav spawns with Heavy Axe, III) Spatha is on recruit already which is not as effective as before anyway, IV) Battania would work if Wildling would like to have Axe.

4) Problem with Heavy Inf perk rn is bc of Shield Breaker on Shock instantly removing even improved shields in combination with 3) makes Cav Breaker ultimate meta perk because of it being actually useful in the right situation unlike the others, dumbing down the selection and creating a mere illusion that you would have a sensible choice. You can pocket extra 4 armor when all the cavs have been dealt with, which might be "never" on public.

4b) Why even Shield Breaker at all? If I recall it correctly, the shield HP have been nerfed already, twohanders make short work of shields without the perk (no need to speed that up even more come on) and if I take an "improved shield" as 160 Gold Class to get it instantly destroyed by some 120 gold shock who decides to instagib my shield, this becomes ridiculous and you can instantly drop that thing at spawn if it would not be for archers or couching. It's actually a meme if some 200 reach weapon which deals 100 damage also oneshots your shields.

5) Don't touch swing or movement speed via perks, especially on the fastest troop with super high damage potential (=> SHOCK), you are just asking for straight abuse of it!

5b) Please consider the complete removal of crush through on all weapons if you can't be asked to do 5), you can't have both or the class is busted forever.

6) I am not sure if Gold Gaining Perks are the right way on the cheapest classes or the classes with highest damage potential (looter, generous lord, yes, hello, I mean you) but time will tell.

7) Decrease Lance base damage, if WW/SS nerf does not make it into live branch, thx kk bye.

TL;DR: If this proves to be broken beyond belief again, I hope we're not stuck on it for 7 months again. We're running circles btw. Don't touch swing speed and movement speed of the already overtuned shocks, the only thing actually keeping them in check for the past 8 months was the fact that the air was darkened by all the projectiles. Improved Shield is meme if it can be taken away by twohanders with two hits.
 
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