Partnering with a University

[jmm55]

Hi, I work for a large state university and I am just writing to gauge the level of interest by a modding community such as this for partnering with a university group or class to create historically accurate quests and quest lines for a mod such as this. First let me say I am a big fan of this game and have played around with mods, our university has an educational gaming group and I could see very real mutual value for the modding community, the mod itself, and for a group or class of students in researching and writing both historically accurate and yet entertaining quests for the kings and characters in this mod. Of course the material would be educational, and historically accurate but I believe it can be fun as well, so this message is just a feeler to see if others in this group could see value in something like that. Again this thought is just in it's infancy. I would appreciate any and all feedback.

 

[Cruger]

I would be very interested in some people to write quests for us. Especially based on historical events. Cèsar have been writing his own as well.

I'll send you a PM..

 

[Computica]

Hi, I work for a large state university and I am just writing to gauge the level of interest by a modding community such as this for partnering with a university group or class to create historically accurate quests and quest lines for a mod such as this. First let me say I am a big fan of this game and have played around with mods, our university has an educational gaming group and I could see very real mutual value for the modding community, the mod itself, and for a group or class of students in researching and writing both historically accurate and yet entertaining quests for the kings and characters in this mod. Of course the material would be educational, and historically accurate but I believe it can be fun as well, so this message is just a feeler to see if others in this group could see value in something like that. Again this thought is just in it's infancy. I would appreciate any and all feedback.

That's a very good idea, this game has a lot of things to offer educationally; there are many different types of skills needed. Such as:
1. Modeling
2. Texture
3. Rigging
4. Basic and Advanced Python Knowledge
5. Sound making
6. Music making

More than 90% of the game is editable. It's best to have some Programmers on the team. The more creative they are the better the game. Which school/university do you represent?

 

[jmm55]

That's a very good idea, this game has a lot of things to offer educationally; there are many different types of skills needed. Such as:
1. Modeling
2. Texture
3. Rigging
4. Basic and Advanced Python Knowledge
5. Sound making
6. Music making

More than 90% of the game is editable. It's best to have some Programmers on the team. The more creative they are the better the game. Which school/university do you represent?

Actually the angle I am considering wouldn't be a technical one, though that may happen, but having the students do traditional research and writing that would provide material for the modders of this community to implement. There are some classes here that do some game design but at a traditional four year university you don't see many game development sort of programs or majors.

 

[Computica]

That's a very good idea, this game has a lot of things to offer educationally; there are many different types of skills needed. Such as:
1. Modeling
2. Texture
3. Rigging
4. Basic and Advanced Python Knowledge
5. Sound making
6. Music making

More than 90% of the game is editable. It's best to have some Programmers on the team. The more creative they are the better the game. Which school/university do you represent?

Actually the angle I am considering wouldn't be a technical one, though that may happen, but having the students do traditional research and writing that would provide material for the modders of this community to implement. There are some classes here that do some game design but at a traditional four year university you don't see many game development sort of programs or majors.

That could be helpful, I do have trouble trying to figure out the realism of weapons. Which school is this?

 

[Lord Rust]

A few things that are always neat are:

* City/town/castle names, locations - What should a place be in the mod? Village, castle or town?
* Lord/Lady names, family relations and holdings

And for EU1200 with cruger and cesar working on those epic quests, like you say, historical events that could be turned into quests, this is something we're trying to implement in EU1200 already and I believe some of them are already partially in the game, the more the better though

PS. Could really do with some research on Norwegian Lords atm, Cruger only stuck 9 in so far and I'm pretty sure we had more than 9 nobles in the year 1200

 

[jmm55]

It's Penn State, though I am acting independently at this point, and have only just started talking about this. We have an educational gaming group that I am affiliated with, but this approach hasn't been considered before and I think this could create an opportunity for traditional research to have outcomes other than your traditional paper, which should excite students. Plus I am hoping to enlist some sort of creative writing aspect as well, think quest building that would serve as even more ways of introducing historical events and still be entertaining.

 

[Cruger]

A few things that are always neat are:

* City/town/castle names, locations - What should a place be in the mod? Village, castle or town?
* Lord/Lady names, family relations and holdings

And for EU1200 with cruger and cesar working on those epic quests, like you say, historical events that could be turned into quests, this is something we're trying to implement in EU1200 already and I believe some of them are already partially in the game, the more the better though

PS. Could really do with some research on Norwegian Lords atm, Cruger only stuck 9 in so far and I'm pretty sure we had more than 9 nobles in the year 1200

I'm not stuck at 9, but at 19, just didn't want to make Norway stronger than Toulouse (which I'm not gonna do anyway) when only the south was included. This will ofcause change, I'm looking for some more Norwegians settlements right now. With the new map Norway looks very deserted..

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

A few things that are always neat are:

* City/town/castle names, locations - What should a place be in the mod? Village, castle or town?
* Lord/Lady names, family relations and holdings

And for EU1200 with cruger and cesar working on those epic quests, like you say, historical events that could be turned into quests, this is something we're trying to implement in EU1200 already and I believe some of them are already partially in the game, the more the better though

PS. Could really do with some research on Norwegian Lords atm, Cruger only stuck 9 in so far and I'm pretty sure we had more than 9 nobles in the year 1200

I'm not stuck at 9, but at 19, just didn't want to make Norway stronger than Toulouse (which I'm not gonna do anyway) when only the south was included. This will ofcause change, I'm looking for some more Norwegians settlements right now. With the new map Norway looks very deserted..

Well, aside from the shores and some isolated fort (and some tiny villages), the northern part of Norway and Sweden WAS a deserted place.

***

On the subject of the thread: I made an aswer, but it's lost somehow. Anyway, I'm very interested in the quest issue.

We're open to new ideas. Any idea on quests for singular characters is welcome, we're already working on quests that are only availiable if you have good relationship with a certain single lord. And we plan to have lots of these kind of quests. Honestly, a nobleman's life back in 1200 was a very, very interesting life. Jousting and questing from court to court, from castle to claste, with a band of fellow squires and knights, until they were in their 30's, and then marry, take control of a fief and "rule". That's when the war begins.

Especially considering that, in 1200, many lords went and came back from the Third Crusade ten years before. Some fought in the wars between the Church and the Guelphs against the Hohenstaufens; some others participated in other wars, complots, conspirations, etc...

There's a lot to take advantadge of. I'm always looking for something we can use, and since Western Europe (France, Spain and England) are my areas of expertese, I move myself around these areas. But feel free to write whatever you come to mind.

If you have some idea, write the dialogues and an explanations of the situation, what should be done, etc. If you need guidance about that, tell me by PM.

Take care!

 

[Lord Rust]

Just briefly on Norway being rather desolate, inland Norway was mostly centered around small settlements around the fjords, the mountains regions while some times settled, could hardly even be called villages and for the most had very little influence on politics.

Due to logistics Norwegian settlements were based around ocean ways.

Ironically enough, Norwegian history is one of my weakest subjects *shame* but why would it have to be weaker than Tolouse? Tolouse was a rather short lived duchy in the grand scheme of history, Norway was a kingdom which gave Europe the Normans and lives to this day, 200 years ish prior to this mod we ruled your nation Cruger Norway was never an international power player in terms of territory, not suprising giving our isolated nature, but we've always done a jolly good job at exporting conquest, however whenever we did, it grew into separate states rather than a part of our own, this, in my opinion, mainly because of the inherent isolation of the Norwegian territories.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

Just briefly on Norway being rather desolate, inland Norway was mostly centered around small settlements around the fjords, the mountains regions while some times settled, could hardly even be called villages and for the most had very little influence on politics.

Due to logistics Norwegian settlements were based around ocean ways.

Ironically enough, Norwegian history is one of my weakest subjects *shame* but why would it have to be weaker than Tolouse? Tolouse was a rather short lived duchy in the grand scheme of history, Norway was a kingdom which gave Europe the Normans and lives to this day, 200 years ish prior to this mod we ruled your nation Cruger Norway was never an international power player in terms of territory, not suprising giving our isolated nature, but we've always done a jolly good job at exporting conquest, however whenever we did, it grew into separate states rather than a part of our own, this, in my opinion, mainly because of the inherent isolation of the Norwegian territories.

You're judging by the standard of States, Countries, while in the Middle Ages you can't speak of such structure. In the Middle Ages, vassals make power. The more vassals, the more powerful is a MAN (not a country). England was rich, not strong. The King of England is. In 1200 (at some other year, it might be different. In 1170, the King, Henry II, was much stronger than Richard would ever be)

So, in 1200, was the Count of Tolosa strong, powerful...? The dynasty of Tolosa was not at his highest peak, but it wasn't at a bad time. Raimon VII was really a powerful man. Nearly independent from Paris, with a complicated but extense web of vassals... however, his fights with the king of Aragon over several jurisdictions and the continuate animosity of several lords, such as the House of Trencavel and the Count of Foix, weakened him. And anyway, he WON the Albigensian Crusade, which is something that is usually forgotten because Tolosa ended up as part of France.

I'd dare say that the Count of Tolosa could boast of having a military power similar to the King of Aragon, although his condition of Count, and not King, provoked a continuate loss of central authority and the constant rebellion of the most powerful vassals, who broke up ties with Tolosa to swear homage to Aragon. And, actually, it's hard to say whether Foix, Bigorra, Carcassona or Besiers were vassals of Tolosa or Aragon in 1200, because of side swiching.

Was the Count of Tolosa more powerful than the King of Norway...? It depends. I haven't studied the political structure of XII-XIIIth Centuries' Norway, but I think Tolosa could gather a larger military force. Another discussion would be if that military force would actually gather or stay together for a significant amount of time (let's say 3 months). Even King James I of Aragon had to face the eventual defection of the Count of Empúries during the conquest of Mallorca. Imagine how things would be for Raimon VII of Tolosa if there was no tradition of central (royal) power as arbiter in the whole Occitania.

***

Sorry, a bit off-topic.

 

[Lord Rust]

Just briefly on Norway being rather desolate, inland Norway was mostly centered around small settlements around the fjords, the mountains regions while some times settled, could hardly even be called villages and for the most had very little influence on politics.

Due to logistics Norwegian settlements were based around ocean ways.

Ironically enough, Norwegian history is one of my weakest subjects *shame* but why would it have to be weaker than Tolouse? Tolouse was a rather short lived duchy in the grand scheme of history, Norway was a kingdom which gave Europe the Normans and lives to this day, 200 years ish prior to this mod we ruled your nation Cruger Norway was never an international power player in terms of territory, not suprising giving our isolated nature, but we've always done a jolly good job at exporting conquest, however whenever we did, it grew into separate states rather than a part of our own, this, in my opinion, mainly because of the inherent isolation of the Norwegian territories.

You're judging by the standard of States, Countries, while in the Middle Ages you can't speak of such structure. In the Middle Ages, vassals make power. The more vassals, the more powerful is a MAN (not a country). England was rich, not strong. The King of England is. In 1200 (at some other year, it might be different. In 1170, the King, Henry II, was much stronger than Richard would ever be)

So, in 1200, was the Count of Tolosa strong, powerful...? The dynasty of Tolosa was not at his highest peak, but it wasn't at a bad time. Raimon VII was really a powerful man. Nearly independent from Paris, with a complicated but extense web of vassals... however, his fights with the king of Aragon over several jurisdictions and the continuate animosity of several lords, such as the House of Trencavel and the Count of Foix, weakened him. And anyway, he WON the Albigensian Crusade, which is something that is usually forgotten because Tolosa ended up as part of France.

I'd dare say that the Count of Tolosa could boast of having a military power similar to the King of Aragon, although his condition of Count, and not King, provoked a continuate loss of central authority and the constant rebellion of the most powerful vassals, who broke up ties with Tolosa to swear homage to Aragon. And, actually, it's hard to say whether Foix, Bigorra, Carcassona or Besiers were vassals of Tolosa or Aragon in 1200, because of side swiching.

Was the Count of Tolosa more powerful than the King of Norway...? It depends. I haven't studied the political structure of XII-XIIIth Centuries' Norway, but I think Tolosa could gather a larger military force. Another discussion would be if that military force would actually gather or stay together for a significant amount of time (let's say 3 months). Even King James I of Aragon had to face the eventual defection of the Count of Empúries during the conquest of Mallorca. Imagine how things would be for Raimon VII of Tolosa if there was no tradition of central (royal) power as arbiter in the whole Occitania.

***

Sorry, a bit off-topic.

While all that is true, our problem is that we're restrained by gameplay mechanics, and in Mount and Blade military power is directly related to the amount of lords, their wealth being more or less ignored. This means that in the game England will most likely be the strongest state due to the amount of land they have (and therefor lords) etc with the various other factions, based solely on the number of lords.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

Just briefly on Norway being rather desolate, inland Norway was mostly centered around small settlements around the fjords, the mountains regions while some times settled, could hardly even be called villages and for the most had very little influence on politics.

Due to logistics Norwegian settlements were based around ocean ways.

Ironically enough, Norwegian history is one of my weakest subjects *shame* but why would it have to be weaker than Tolouse? Tolouse was a rather short lived duchy in the grand scheme of history, Norway was a kingdom which gave Europe the Normans and lives to this day, 200 years ish prior to this mod we ruled your nation Cruger Norway was never an international power player in terms of territory, not suprising giving our isolated nature, but we've always done a jolly good job at exporting conquest, however whenever we did, it grew into separate states rather than a part of our own, this, in my opinion, mainly because of the inherent isolation of the Norwegian territories.

You're judging by the standard of States, Countries, while in the Middle Ages you can't speak of such structure. In the Middle Ages, vassals make power. The more vassals, the more powerful is a MAN (not a country). England was rich, not strong. The King of England is. In 1200 (at some other year, it might be different. In 1170, the King, Henry II, was much stronger than Richard would ever be)

So, in 1200, was the Count of Tolosa strong, powerful...? The dynasty of Tolosa was not at his highest peak, but it wasn't at a bad time. Raimon VII was really a powerful man. Nearly independent from Paris, with a complicated but extense web of vassals... however, his fights with the king of Aragon over several jurisdictions and the continuate animosity of several lords, such as the House of Trencavel and the Count of Foix, weakened him. And anyway, he WON the Albigensian Crusade, which is something that is usually forgotten because Tolosa ended up as part of France.

I'd dare say that the Count of Tolosa could boast of having a military power similar to the King of Aragon, although his condition of Count, and not King, provoked a continuate loss of central authority and the constant rebellion of the most powerful vassals, who broke up ties with Tolosa to swear homage to Aragon. And, actually, it's hard to say whether Foix, Bigorra, Carcassona or Besiers were vassals of Tolosa or Aragon in 1200, because of side swiching.

Was the Count of Tolosa more powerful than the King of Norway...? It depends. I haven't studied the political structure of XII-XIIIth Centuries' Norway, but I think Tolosa could gather a larger military force. Another discussion would be if that military force would actually gather or stay together for a significant amount of time (let's say 3 months). Even King James I of Aragon had to face the eventual defection of the Count of Empúries during the conquest of Mallorca. Imagine how things would be for Raimon VII of Tolosa if there was no tradition of central (royal) power as arbiter in the whole Occitania.

***

Sorry, a bit off-topic.

While all that is true, our problem is that we're restrained by gameplay mechanics, and in Mount and Blade military power is directly related to the amount of lords, their wealth being more or less ignored. This means that in the game England will most likely be the strongest state due to the amount of land they have (and therefor lords) etc with the various other factions, based solely on the number of lords.

Not if the English lords in Poitiou, Anjou and Aquitaine support Arthur of Brittany as rightful heir of the Crown of England... which happened in reality. And which we hope will be properly portrayed in a narrative quest.

And the thing is that Gascon and Aquitan vassals of John Lackland are disloyal by nature, so they should be easily "convinced" to turn away from John.

The problem M&B has, and it's a huge gameplay problem: whenever a lord turns his back to his liege, he LOOSES his estates and fiefs. Which makes no sense. The Middle Ages is the time of self-served law. You want something? You grab it yourself with your knghts behind you.

In an ideal situation, the king of England would say "I'm your liege, Henry de Bohun, and you have been treacherous. Now you give your fief back to me and you're banished from my lands". And Lord Henry would obey. In reality, Lord Henry would answer: "Oh yeah? My castles are mine. Come and take them!"

Remember The Lion in Winter?

Henry II: "The Vexin is mine"
Philippe II: "By which right?"
Henry II: "I have my troops all over it, that makes it mine".

And, indeed, that's most of what matters in the Middle Ages. Legitimacy only settles what is already de facto taken, and secures continuity.

 

[Lord Rust]

I think lords defecting in Brytenwalde keep their fiefs (I think, shoot idbil a mail and check he'd probably help you out with the code).

Either way, if you can sort the above then England should be sorted well and nicely, though from my experience with other mods, code like that tends to create a *huge* amount of bugs, so let's make sure we get plenty of time to beta test it.

 

[Revan Shan]

Suggestion: Mking event's like in the Total War series.

A message appears on the date, with a picture and an explanation of the event.

Total War fans love it. It's really nice and neat, and people can learn some history with it.

 

[Lord Rust]

Suggestion: Mking event's like in the Total War series.

A message appears on the date, with a picture and an explanation of the event.

Total War fans love it. It's really nice and neat, and people can learn some history with it.

Won't work, days pass one at a time, most people don't play a full year, those who play for long might play four or five years.

 

[Revan Shan]

Suggestion: Mking event's like in the Total War series.

A message appears on the date, with a picture and an explanation of the event.

Total War fans love it. It's really nice and neat, and people can learn some history with it.

Won't work, days pass one at a time, most people don't play a full year, those who play for long might play four or five years.

So what's the problem? We could focus on the first year events, and maybe add some for later years.

 

[Cruger]

Even though earlier version of the mod for M&B might have shown otherwise, this is not a recreation of the total war series. Besides, I dare you to come up with just 3 events that could be used.

 

[Revan Shan]

I dare you to come up with just 3 events that could be used.

Well, that would be the university parters' work, wouldn't it?


Note: I have an idea. Vizcaya became part of Castille after a war with Navarre on 1200. That could be a nice event.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

I dare you to come up with just 3 events that could be used.

Well, that would be the university parters' work, wouldn't it?


Note: I have an idea. Vizcaya became part of Castille after a war with Navarre on 1200. That could be a nice event.

But it doesn't make sense, since Vizcaya is already a part of Navarra, and also, whatever becomes part of a country is decided by the war itself, not by an event. Imagine that you're at war with France and when the war ends, an event pops out saying that X castle is given to France because it was so. But this castle hasn't fell, and you got to stand there heroically. I would be quite pissed off.

I'm against historical events like that. For example, one really interesting historical even would be the assassination of Otto von Hohenstaufen, Free Count of Burgundy, the 13th of January, in the year 1200. He was murdered and his dauther, Johanna, inherited the county. Interesting event that doesn't requite of a previous scenario.