Parrying and weapon control

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The Mark

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Now, another suggestion on the topic of parrying.

Armagan and his better half have already done a terrific job with the combat, keeping it simple, fluid and immersive, but there still remains more depth to be added, e.g. parrying and taking weapon masses into account. The problem is, how to add depth without overly complicating the game, after all, it's the beautiful simplicity that keeps the combat going.

Trying to keep the suggestion as simple and M&B as I can, I would suggest using a tap of the defend button to perform a parry, and holding it to do the basic block. Doing a parry would require a good timing to succeed, and would cause the attacker have less control over his weapon (below), allowing the defender to launch a counter-attack. A badly timed, but still successful parry would give less penalties to the attacker, much like a block. A too early parry could be still turned into a block, but a too late parry would only slow down the weapon coming at you. Respectively, a block would be much more safer to do than a parry, but wouldn't cause any/much penalties on the attacker, allowing him to keep the control of his weapon and to stay on the offense.

Having control over one's weapon is quite important, and it is already in game, you can interrupt an attack with the block button, possibly to do a block or a feint. How this would fit into parrying would be that one has to stay in control of his weapon when an attack is parried. This would be done by tapping the block button, just as it is now, but not doing so when your attack is parried will make you lose the control of your weapon to your opponent, giving you a larger penalty. The same would apply to parrying also; if the attacker did a feint and you parried, you have to regain the control of your weapon.

The system I'm proposing boils down to weapon speeds: receiving a penalty on weapon control slows your next move, whether it be a parry, a block or an attack. Retrieving the blade also takes time, leaving a small window of opportunity for the opponent. The results from a parry or a block would be merely modifiers to the weapon speed determined by agility and weapon skills.

Parrying would also be integrated to the skill system, in the form of a specific parry skill or based on the weapon skills, enabled after a certain skill level, a better parry/weapon skill resulting in bigger speed penalties to parried attacks, and better weapon skills fasten regaining control and doing new moves respectively, just as it is.

Any thoughts?
 
YES!

I would LOVE a one-click "attempt-a-parry" in addition to the click-and-hold "Defend Me!" that we already have.
 
I agree, this sounds like a great idea. It'd make combat more complicated and tactical but still keep it twitch-based and immersive. The bonuses for parrying should be notable enough to make it worth the risk, though. Also, this could work in conjunction with the earlier "breaking block" suggestions; for example attempting to block a heavy weapon could result in loss of weapon control or knockdown and maybe a little damage, but a successful parry would have a small chance of deflecting the blow without any penalties and reduce them otherwise.
 
I'm not sure how hard it would be to add this to the game ... but this is a great idea! It could add an additional realm/level of strategy and would still keep the control of fighting, simple and intuitive.
 
I like this idea. I would like to see too that when you hit someone, the more you hold the attack more strong it will be (this is, you have more time to prepare a strong attack). Not sure if it isnt this way already, though.
This way, you could increase the swing speed of your weapon for the cost of damage, or increase the damage at a swing rate cost.
 
Sounds like a good idea. How would it work out for spears and other pole arms, however? Some of them seem capable of bona fide parries, but others less so. Does it work to tie it in to overall weapon speed?
 
Aethelwyn said:
Sounds like a good idea. How would it work out for spears and other pole arms, however? Some of them seem capable of bona fide parries, but others less so. Does it work to tie it in to overall weapon speed?

Well, in that case some weapons might only have the regular blocks.
 
Nice. Had that idea too, but i realised it could be abused, cos its really easy to predict the enemies attack since the strikes are really very slow and in fixed position.

Also, if you carry a shield, how to implement it? It'll look wierd. If you hold it, the comp will register the parry first then the block, since you need to hold. Then you'll see the character raise his sword then raise his shield.

And for some weapons, make it very difficult to parry, such as great axe and mauls and maybe daggers. Require very precise parries or high strength.

BTW, i dont think great axe and mauls can parry attacks, right?
 
Aethelwyn said:
Sounds like a good idea. How would it work out for spears and other pole arms, however? Some of them seem capable of bona fide parries, but others less so. Does it work to tie it in to overall weapon speed?
Well, I'd certainly like to see spears being fast and parry-capable (and swingable, damnit), except for the longer variants, pikes and such. Tying it to weapon speed could be the answer, though there may be some fast weapons that shouldn't be able to parry. Dunno what weapons, though.

No name said:
Also, if you carry a shield, how to implement it? It'll look wierd. If you hold it, the comp will register the parry first then the block, since you need to hold. Then you'll see the character raise his sword then raise his shield.
I'm not sure about this, but I would try to take an attack with my shield, first and foremost, as that'd leave my weapon free for a counterattack.

Nice. Had that idea too, but i realised it could be abused, cos its really easy to predict the enemies attack since the strikes are really very slow and in fixed position.
Depends on enemy. Try fighting Xerina with 6 agility :wink:

The point is, if you predict an attack, and start parrying too early it's easy for your opponent to halt their swing and stab you instead while you're trying to get your weapon back from the parry.
 
Nice. Had that idea too, but i realised it could be abused, cos its really easy to predict the enemies attack since the strikes are really very slow and in fixed position.

but then, if it was added as a player ability, our enemies could use it, too. :wink:
And THAT would be a good thing. With good AI, even River Pirates could beome threatening. :grin:
 
Very nice idea, here are my additions:

- when the attack is parried at the 'perfect' time, the defender parries the whole attacker to one side (because of the weight put in the attack) and then has the chance to perform a free strike
- attacks should be performed a lot quicker for some of the weapons, making it harder to parry attacks, and balancing the strong to quick weapons
- you cant parry heavy 2H weapons, with the exception of polearms (they're light)
- you cant parry with heavy 2H weapons (maybe at higher skill lvl), with exception of polearms (they're light)

very nice idea again, I hope someday these will be implemented in the game, even if it's a fraction of them. Comments?
 
Raz said:
Very nice idea, here are my additions:

- when the attack is parried at the 'perfect' time, the defender parries the whole attacker to one side (because of the weight put in the attack) and then has the chance to perform a free strike
- attacks should be performed a lot quicker for some of the weapons, making it harder to parry attacks, and balancing the strong to quick weapons
- you cant parry heavy 2H weapons, with the exception of polearms (they're light)
- you cant parry with heavy 2H weapons (maybe at higher skill lvl), with exception of polearms (they're light)

very nice idea again, I hope someday these will be implemented in the game, even if it's a fraction of them. Comments?

Polearms too LIGHT? How do you figure an 8ft shaft of wood is too light? One handed swords were around 4-5 pounds! The polearm is much heavier than that.
 
Valec, read Raz' post again. He's not saying that pole arms are too light to parry; he's saying they're light enough to parry. (And keep in mind, parry does not mean block.)

I think that may be debatable, but I have no experience handing any pole arms. I'm inclined to guess that a 2h pole arm offers more agility than other 2h weapons, though, up to a certain point. Why? Because the hands can be far apart on a long shafted weapon, providing great balance and leverage. With a 2h sword or axe, the hands are closer together, providing (I can only surmise) a bit less control and agility.

Obviously there's a point at which the weight and length of a pole arm becomes too great to afford much flexibility in its use though. You can "fence" with naginata, for example... but I don't think one could with a pike. If my guess is wrong I would welcome a proper explanation :smile:
 
For reference:

A single-handed medieval sword (swords from other eras are different) weigh between 2.5 - 3.5 lbs.
A two-handed "longsword" or bastard sword would weigh between 3 - 5 lbs.
A two handed "greatsword" or "sword of war" would commonly weigh over four pounds and up to... call it 6.5? Proper renaissance two-handers (zveihanders, flamberges, etc) could weigh up to eight, but never much farther.


Polearm weight varied wildly. A poleaxe or holy-water sprinkler could weigh eight to twelve pounds, a glave could weigh six to eight, a short (5') spear could weigh three. I've used them all. IMHO, the hardest to BLOCK are Long Axes, and mass-weapons like the holy-water sprinkler/two-handed mace and the footman's hammer. My favorite all-around weapon is the slashing spear or the glave -they can actually move faster than most swords. But... that's me talking. Other people with similar (or more) more experience certainly have different oppinions.
 
Destichado said:
For reference:

A single-handed medieval sword (swords from other eras are different) weigh between 2.5 - 3.5 lbs.
A two-handed "longsword" or bastard sword would weigh between 3 - 5 lbs.
A two handed "greatsword" or "sword of war" would commonly weigh over four pounds. Proper renaissance two-handers (zveihanders, flamberges, etc) could weigh up to eight, but never much farther.

Yup those are quite right. That reminded me of how crap the modern re enaction swords are, they make all kinds of horrible constructions and saggy blades, and either the blade is too heavy or too light...sorry for going OT
 
Wouldn't it be easier to parry a heavy weapon than a light one? It's blocks where weight is an advantage.

It would make more sense from a gameplay and realism point of view to let you parry a large weapon with a well timed defense, but not block them by holding a tiny little stick in the way.
 
Aethelwyn said:
Valec, read Raz' post again. He's not saying that pole arms are too light to parry; he's saying they're light enough to parry. (And keep in mind, parry does not mean block.)

I think that may be debatable, but I have no experience handing any pole arms. I'm inclined to guess that a 2h pole arm offers more agility than other 2h weapons, though, up to a certain point. Why? Because the hands can be far apart on a long shafted weapon, providing great balance and leverage. With a 2h sword or axe, the hands are closer together, providing (I can only surmise) a bit less control and agility.

Obviously there's a point at which the weight and length of a pole arm becomes too great to afford much flexibility in its use though. You can "fence" with naginata, for example... but I don't think one could with a pike. If my guess is wrong I would welcome a proper explanation :smile:
Thank you

By the way I meant the stab. It can easily be directed to a side.
 
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