"Padded" armor without quilting?

[Sahran]

I've stumbled across what I think constitutes this armor across cultural boundaries, but in particular see it amongst the Moors and Andalusians. It is what appears to be a two layer dress, with a more nice flowing cloth looking robe on at the bottom layer, and then what seems to look like a stiffer, thicker cloth dress atop it which is shorter in the sleeves and length. I'm wondering if anyone knows how you can have padded armor without any quilting design (whether it's vertical or diamond or box), and examples of it historically. 



Is this actually a padded sort of armor, or just a second layer of normal civilian dress?

 

[GraaEminense]

Problems with interpreting period depictions aside, I doubt you're likely to find actual armour made of cloth that is not quilted in some way.
Heavy clothing in itself gives some protection against trauma and need not be quilted, but with enough layers for it to be 'armour' rather than 'clothing' -granted, not an easy differentiation- you'll want quilting to keep the layers where they're supposed to be and keep the armour from disintegrating after getting slashed at.

I interpret the outer layer of most of the pictures you present as simply an outer layer of wool over a cotton or linen robe, perhaps granting some protection but mainly intended against the elements.

 

[Sahran]

I have heard references to buff or felt coats used by the Moors or Andalusians, but they usually appear much more leathery/rugged looking. Do you think they could be buff, felt, or simply a linen shirt over some sort of quilted armor? I suppose they just look really curious dressed like that unless it's some sort of parade/civilian dress. I could buy into your idea of it being a protective wool coat except for the fact that it's shorter in the sleeves and legs than the white kaftan beneath it.

Although one thing is that it could be a jibbah, a quilted overcoat (http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms-and-armour/o/Non-Metal-Armour/1919.29.7/) The original Osprey author may not have depicted the quilted lines, and it may be I am using to those garnments which have a very noticable quilted design to it.

The only other thing I can think of is some sort of linothorax style design of laminated cloth or as you say, a sort of 'buff' coat of wool or heavily woven fabric.

I suppose what I'd be wondering then is if you can have a garment/armor which is quilted, but which doesn't appear to be from the outside?

 

[Merlkir]

You could have a quilted piece covered in non quilted linen or silk, but I don't see much reason to do that. If you wore metal armour over that, it would get torn to bits.

Those examples look to me like wool, or felt indeed.

 

[Oskatat]

i believe silk was usual for undergarment, since it was easier to remove from wounds. The pictures may be off because often a tabard or something was worn over armor that would declare ones affiliation. And yes, that was a major part of any soldier his clothing, because having your friends recognize you meant that at least they wouldnt try to kill you

 

[HannibalTheCannibal]

I think it was more common in the middle east than andalusia, but the moslems had a type of armor (sort of depicted in the game, but not well) that was maille with cloth on the outside and inside hiding it.

 

[Bullethead]

I suppose what I'd be wondering then is if you can have a garment/armor which is quilted, but which doesn't appear to be from the outside?

The Aztecs and their neighbors did that.  They wore quilted cotton armor then usually covered it with unquilted things like jaguar hide, or just more cotton that was flat and capable of being painted and/or embroidered for decoration.

 

[Swadius 2.0]

I think it was more common in the middle east than andalusia, but the moslems had a type of armor (sort of depicted in the game, but not well) that was maille with cloth on the outside and inside hiding it.

It had additional cloth acting as a buffer beneath it right? I hope it didn't leave the rings in direct contact with the skin.

 

[HannibalTheCannibal]

Yes, there was cloth under it too, imagine putting on a cloth shirt, then a maille shirt, then another cloth shirt over it. Then you sew the edges of the inside and outside shirt together to so it makes like a sandwich.

 

[Swadius 2.0]

What difference would this have over putting both pieces of cloth under the maille?

 

[HannibalTheCannibal]

In the middle east deserts it's really hot, the cloth keeps the sun off the metal keeping it cooler. You could just as easily wear a separate surcoat over your armor like the crusaders did, but that wasn't the fashion of the moslems back then.

 

[Aqtai]

Unless the armour is made of really thick material or it would not be possible to have padded armour without quilting as the "stuffing" would all end up at the bottom of the armour. What is depicted on those pictures are long tunics similar to the modern day Arab "Deshdasha" and Egyptian "Galabeya".

Quilted armours were used in the Sudan and Subsaharan Africa right up until the early 20th century and many examples survive in museums:



http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms-and-armour/o/Non-Metal-Armour/1919.29.7/

Armours made of multiple layers of cloth were used in India and the Middle east in the 15th to 19th centuries, but in those the layers were held together with rivets and frequently reinforced with metal plates:

 

[GraaEminense]

Armours made of multiple layers of cloth were used in India and the Middle east in the 15th to 19th centuries, but in those the layers were held together with rivets and frequently reinforced with metal plates:

Gambesons (or whatever term you choose to use) could very well be made of multiple layers of cloth without reinforcing plates or rivets.
It seems to have worked that way with many medieval Western European ones at least -though these were quilted for reinforcement instead.

 

[Sahran]

Unless the armour is made of really thick material or it would not be possible to have padded armour without quilting as the "stuffing" would all end up at the bottom of the armour. What is depicted on those pictures are long tunics similar to the modern day Arab "Deshdasha" and Egyptian "Galabeya".

So they are just wearing 'civilian' dress, so to speak? Though I was thinking couldn't you in theory have some sort of thick stiff fabric cover over a quilted dress? If only to cover up the quilts and in theory maybe make it a bit more durable/weatherproof