SP - Battles & Sieges Pace of Battle

[Rhaskos]

I read some nice discussions about methods of adding some tactical complexity to battles like running/walking toggle commands, different formations, more specific formation targeting and so on which all sounds great but makes me ask myself "are we playing the same game"?

There is simply not enough time in a field battle to do anything but set up your initial formations, (for which you have something like 20 seconds before the enemy cavalry has reached your lines) followed by maybe a counter charge with your cavalry or positioning a shield/pike wall to block the enemy's cav. Once they have crashed into your forces and dropped like flies in the space of 30 seconds, you can either reposition and wait 20 seconds for their infantry to reach you and the same thing to happen, or F1-F3 to speed it up a little.

These battles typically last around 2 or 3 minutes, a longer and more epic battle (500v500) being around 5 or 6 minutes. If we want a game with some tactical complexity something has to be changed to give us the space to work with.
I'm sure others will have more nuanced ideas but these are what I think of immediately:

1. Movement speed. Infantry might be too fast but cavalry is unbelievably quick. Some horses move so fast that your lance animation will pass right through the enemy soldiers.
2. Everybody dies too quickly. I'm not sure about this one because I have some mods buffing health and armor such that I can swing a 2 hander onto a guy's face 5 or 6 times before he goes down which feels like quite a lot. Maybe the problem is too many soldiers being engaged in combat simultaneously? There isn't really any reason to keep reserves because it's not like the enemy will attempt to flank you and after all the entire battle is over in less than 3 minutes.
   
   Anyway these are my quick thoughts on this issue for now. If anybody (dev perhaps?) has thought more deeply about it I'd be interested to hear their ideas.

 

[Foefaller]

AFAIK the "One Step Ahead" perk in Tactics lets you make pre-battle decisions on placement and formation prior to battle. That's probably where the bulk of any strategic decisions would have to go as a well. Trying to pull off complex troop movements real time w/o a bird's eye view is not really that fun for most people, even if TW was able to replace the current F keys menus with something less cumbersome.

 

[elcapo29]

Units holding their formations better so everyone isnt fighting all at once, and blocking more instead of just spam swinging could fix this problem. An armor tweak could help too.

Done right I dont think we ll have to mess with HP too much. I'm waiting for modding tools but this will be one of the first things I experiment with.

 

[Lord Bryggan]

@Rhaskos Have you tried Realistic Battle Mod? It makes the AI play much more defensively. They actually use their shields in melee. I like it because the fighting lasts longer, but once you encircle the enemy then the battle ends quickly since you're hitting them in the back.

But I agree, more time is needed to position. Right now we get the same maps over and over so I generally know where to go, but that won't last forever.

 

[The Yogi]

Does anyone remember the Realistic Combat Model (RCM) for the original M&B and Warband? There was more to it than that, but at its core it modeled the fact that weapons are deadly and one good hit with almost any weapon of war will bring you down, if not kill you - unless you wear armour. What RCM did was increase weapon damage and armour ratings, but not HP. Metal armour was really effective against most kinds of edged or pointed weapons - I'm thinking that with an RCM-version for Bannerlord, troops with decent armour could be bashing away at each other for quite some time, thus prolonging battles.

 

[black_bulldog]

AFAIK the "One Step Ahead" perk in Tactics lets you make pre-battle decisions on placement and formation prior to battle. That's probably where the bulk of any strategic decisions would have to go as a well. Trying to pull off complex troop movements real time w/o a bird's eye view is not really that fun for most people, even if TW was able to replace the current F keys menus with something less cumbersome.

That whole perk tree are not implemented atm and frankly that we have to have a perk to do this is kind of dumb. If the pace of battle was slower and units didn't come at you 500mph I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. Imho tactics isn't something that I really worry about because I don't run a ton of simulation battles and if I do I heavily outnumber the enemy in strength and size so it's not a big deal. Unless TW makes some kick ass perks in that tree I won't ever worry about it. It seems more important to companions than the pc.

 

[thick1988]

Realistic Battle Mod helps, Ive had some good 20 minute standoffs where we just shoot arrows at eachothers army and cavalry sort of skirmishes on the flanks before the final melee. But even then I feel like a few things should be changed.

1) Athletics. Athletics should be limited for all troops. The lowest tier troop should have nearly the same athletic skill as the highest. Not because its historically accurate, but because it would limit the movement speed in battles and keep charging units from spreading out too much.

2) Armor should be much more protective. A sword slice should not cut through lamellar or mail easily at all.

3)The shield wall behavior should be the default for all formations. Meaning, soldiers will not break rank and attack when the enemy is 10yards away. They also should not turn into a wild melee, they should try to remain a cohesive unit with flanks protected. Instead of the entire formation of 60 men turning to face the 4 horse archers on the flank, only the few soldiers on that end should turn to protect the formation.

4) After being engaged in melee, if the attacking force has been unable to break the enemy they should fall back a short distance to regroup or reform. Especially if reinforcemnet troops have spawned in.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Realistic Battle Mod helps, Ive had some good 20 minute standoffs where we just shoot arrows at eachothers army and cavalry sort of skirmishes on the flanks before the final melee. But even then I feel like a few things should be changed.

1) Athletics. Athletics should be limited for all troops. The lowest tier troop should have nearly the same athletic skill as the highest. Not because its historically accurate, but because it would limit the movement speed in battles and keep charging units from spreading out too much.

2) Armor should be much more protective. A sword slice should not cut through lamellar or mail easily at all.

3)The shield wall behavior should be the default for all formations. Meaning, soldiers will not break rank and attack when the enemy is 10yards away. They also should not turn into a wild melee, they should try to remain a cohesive unit with flanks protected. Instead of the entire formation of 60 men turning to face the 4 horse archers on the flank, only the few soldiers on that end should turn to protect the formation.

4) After being engaged in melee, if the attacking force has been unable to break the enemy they should fall back a short distance to regroup or reform. Especially if reinforcemnet troops have spawned in.

+1
Absolutely
With regard to the issue of armour, it seems that they are working on modifying the values of these.

There will be a big armor value and equipment change we are working on ( Still needs to be thoroughly tested before it is good for the public builds) and we may make some more changes on troop weapons and troops if it is necessary but each change requires heavy testing to see how they synergize with every element of the game.

(link post)