P.O.G.A.A.H propositions and suggestions list to improve infantry ✂

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OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
I think nerfing kicks further might backfire, especially if you talk about evening out the stats of all units again regarding their movement. Please don't give archers the ability to kite forever again...
Archers have no choice but to kite currently due to insane movement differences that mean they are a sitting duck for kicks unless they strafe directly away from the opponent.

But I think kicks are an issue for another topic really as we need to see what impact the kick nerf has.
 

TheBard ✂

Salt Knight
Master Knight
Archers have no choice but to kite currently due to insane movement differences that mean they are a sitting duck for kicks unless they strafe directly away from the opponent.

But I think kicks are an issue for another topic really as we need to see what impact the kick nerf has.
A couple of patches ago archers were unreachable as a matter of fact. Now you can catch them and they need to kite early on which promotes strategic decisions when to leave or stand a ground, not like before where you could fire until the sword literally reached you, not get punished for it and then turn around and still run away. I'm glad this **** is finally gone, took us quite some time.
 
Good changes, but kick nerf is a must aswell. I watched Gibby's video from the 3v3 and the amount of kicking was hilarious, and main bannerlord players use it even more. It's fine for kicks to be better than in Warband, but this is too much.
Nerfing kicks further is pointless, as TW said nerf to missed kick is comming so punishing it will be easier. On top of that TW also said 1.6 will bring all infs speed to skirmisher levels, and as per skirmisher vs skirmisher fights kicks are way less usefull. People who played with me 6 vs 6 recruits inf only know that, and if thats gonna be standard nerfing kicks will just make them dead mechanic.
 
I agree with the suggestions, especially to remove the delay we have when we hold a stab and release because it kills the range gameplay when people can just spam you and be faster than you even tho you already hold a stab.
 

Fietta

buıʇʇǝs uoıʇɔǝɹıp ʞɔɐʇʇɐ
Marquis
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
At the same time, changing a parameter by 0.1 is far easier and ought to have no impact on content.

I mean, it might have an impact, but that seems an issue of development.

I highly doubt some of those suggestions are just a parameter change, especially the attack animation changes, stab stunning, stances. I mean, I get your point and the suggestions are good; but let's not pretend it's all about changing a couple of numbers. You also have to continuously test and change the parameters to the .1 until you find the sweet spot, which takes quite a lot of time in development. For every small parameter you change, the testing takes longer, to then change the parameter again. This wouldn't be so bad if they didn't have other plans, but it's a company and that's exactly what they do have. Let's not be too naïve, the suggestions are good though.

Rebalancing is fine, although I believe they already rebalanced with Silen's parameters (which everyone seemed to enjoy), and now people are asking for more balance changes, but I guess that comes naturally with meta.
 
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OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
I highly doubt some of those suggestions are just a parameter change, especially the attack animation changes, stab stunning, stances. I mean, I get your point and the suggestions are good; but let's not pretend it's all about changing a couple of numbers. You also have to continuously test and change the parameters to the .1 until you find the sweet spot, which takes quite a lot of time in development. For every small parameter you change, the testing takes longer, to then change the parameter again. This wouldn't be so bad if they didn't have other plans, but it's a company and that's exactly what they do have. Let's not be too naïve, the suggestions are good though.

Rebalancing is fine, although I believe they already rebalanced with Silen's parameters (which everyone seemed to enjoy), and now people are asking for more balance changes, but I guess that comes naturally with meta.
Some aren't (obviously), some are. As you say, Silen's changes took a trivial amount of time relative to development time and so did our combat testing. Some of these still need tweaked.

These changes took far too long to come to live, and it's been far too long since revisited. Just because development time takes longer than most amateurs realise does not absolve TW of being slow to change.

More broadly, I do think all of these changes are simpler than providing content (such as maps, game modes, server hosting, and mod support), although some will be more complex than others. It's also effectively a free win to generate some much needed goodwill.
 

Fietta

buıʇʇǝs uoıʇɔǝɹıp ʞɔɐʇʇɐ
Marquis
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
These changes took far too long to come to live, and it's been far too long since revisited. Just because development time takes longer than most amateurs realise does not absolve TW of being slow to change.

Yeah, that's true tbf
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Very much in agreement with the list... these are suggestions that are repeated over and over again and that most players take for granted. The issue of keeping the stances as something aesthetic without effect, the turncap and other parameters that can be easily adjusted, certainly are a minor issue; of quick change I mean.

In my opinion the real problem lies in the animations and how they have an overly exaggerated swing arc; as OGL rightly commented in his 2019 thread. Each and every one has a part where a "momentum build-up" effect is exaggerated. I wonder, could all those keys be eliminated from the animation by reducing the initial swing arc (from where the arm starts)? also the post swing inertia keys could be eliminated; also excessively exaggerated.

Take a look at these three animations with 0.5x speed for a better visualisation:



I don't know if this could be a solution that could be satisfactory in the end; however I doubt Taleworlds would rectify all the weapon hitting animations by means of a mocap carried out by stuners that minimally know some hema/martial arts (realistic positioning I mean). And this is a real problem.

As for the swinging arcs on horseback; with a little tweak you can correct most of them (check this thread for +info).



And last but not least and in line with what OGL said; I don't know what you think but I've always thought that Bannerlord needs a dynamic shield block and that the two types of use with shields (hand - hand_shield) must be the same so that for example in sieges we can cover our head while climbing a ladder with a sturgian round shield as with a kite (and that the AI does it)


(check this thread for +info)

(check this thread for +info)

Of course a revision of the shield hitboxes is needed.
 
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DainMorgot

Sergeant
Very much in agreement with the list... these are suggestions that are repeated over and over again and that most players take for granted. The issue of keeping the stances as something aesthetic without effect, the turncap and other parameters that can be easily adjusted, certainly are a minor issue; of quick change I mean.

In my opinion the real problem lies in the animations and how they have an overly exaggerated swing arc; as OGL rightly commented in his 2019 thread. Each and every one has a part where a "momentum build-up" effect is exaggerated. I wonder, could all those keys be eliminated from the animation by reducing the initial swing arc (from where the arm starts)? also the post swing inertia keys could be eliminated; also excessively exaggerated.

Take a look at these three animations with 0.5x speed for a better visualisation:



I don't know if this could be a solution that could be satisfactory in the end; however I doubt Taleworlds would rectify all the weapon hitting animations by means of a mocap carried out by stuners that minimally know some hema/martial arts (realistic positioning I mean). And this is a real problem.

As for the swinging arcs on horseback; with a little tweak you can correct most of them (check this thread for +info).



And last but not least and in line with what OGL said; I don't know what you think but I've always thought that Bannerlord needs a dynamic shield block and that the two types of use with shields (hand - hand_shield) must be the same so that for example in sieges we can cover our head while climbing a ladder with a sturgian round shield as with a kite (and that the AI does it)


(check this thread for +info)

(check this thread for +info)

Of course a revision of the shield hitboxes is needed.




You always make the best posts dude. Very nice. But I disagree on the edit, they should rework the animations. The right swing looks extremely bad for a 2020 game if you edit its first part out. Dont get me wrong, I agree that we need faster animations like you suggest in your post, but I disagree with editing the current animations. They should rework them. The animations go back to the 2016 demo, the game released in 2020. Just hire an animator.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
In my opinion the real problem lies in the animations and how they have an overly exaggerated swing arc; as OGL rightly commented in his 2019 thread. Each and every one has a part where a "momentum build-up" effect is exaggerated. I wonder, could all those keys be eliminated from the animation by reducing the initial swing arc (from where the arm starts)? also the post swing inertia keys could be eliminated; also excessively exaggerated.


TW please 😩
 

hoonii

Knight
Very much in agreement with the list... these are suggestions that are repeated over and over again and that most players take for granted. The issue of keeping the stances as something aesthetic without effect, the turncap and other parameters that can be easily adjusted, certainly are a minor issue; of quick change I mean.

In my opinion the real problem lies in the animations and how they have an overly exaggerated swing arc; as OGL rightly commented in his 2019 thread. Each and every one has a part where a "momentum build-up" effect is exaggerated. I wonder, could all those keys be eliminated from the animation by reducing the initial swing arc (from where the arm starts)? also the post swing inertia keys could be eliminated; also excessively exaggerated.

Take a look at these three animations with 0.5x speed for a better visualisation:



I don't know if this could be a solution that could be satisfactory in the end; however I doubt Taleworlds would rectify all the weapon hitting animations by means of a mocap carried out by stuners that minimally know some hema/martial arts (realistic positioning I mean). And this is a real problem.

As for the swinging arcs on horseback; with a little tweak you can correct most of them (check this thread for +info).



And last but not least and in line with what OGL said; I don't know what you think but I've always thought that Bannerlord needs a dynamic shield block and that the two types of use with shields (hand - hand_shield) must be the same so that for example in sieges we can cover our head while climbing a ladder with a sturgian round shield as with a kite (and that the AI does it)


(check this thread for +info)

(check this thread for +info)

Of course a revision of the shield hitboxes is needed.
Stop I can get hard only so much.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
I want to clarify one thing guys... regarding the swing arc animations, as you will understand I am talking conceptually 😌. I have not modified these animations explicitly; I am only putting on the table for discussion a hypothetical modification of the current ones by Taleworlds in which they cut keys at the beginning and end of the swings (overhead - right/left with stances) and exaggerated thrust impulse keys (both 1h, 2h and polearm).

That in the short term imho is more viable/quick bandaid than carrying out systematic mocap rectifying each of these types of animations. Obviously I would sign right now for a new mocap between what we had in warband and what we currently have, carried out by someone skilled in this type of activities (poses, performances and guards I mean); however that would take them much more time to be able to achieve.
 

KSHMR

Sergeant at Arms
I highly doubt some of those suggestions are just a parameter change, especially the attack animation changes, stab stunning, stances. I mean, I get your point and the suggestions are good; but let's not pretend it's all about changing a couple of numbers. You also have to continuously test and change the parameters to the .1 until you find the sweet spot, which takes quite a lot of time in development. For every small parameter you change, the testing takes longer, to then change the parameter again. This wouldn't be so bad if they didn't have other plans, but it's a company and that's exactly what they do have. Let's not be too naïve, the suggestions are good though.

Rebalancing is fine, although I believe they already rebalanced with Silen's parameters (which everyone seemed to enjoy), and now people are asking for more balance changes, but I guess that comes naturally with meta.
The testing part is crucial for making this work. And this is exactly where TaleWorlds have been consistently disappointing the community. In fact, most updates are released untested by the Developers, in turn causing massive crashes and earrape problems.
 

Fietta

buıʇʇǝs uoıʇɔǝɹıp ʞɔɐʇʇɐ
Marquis
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
The testing part is crucial for making this work. And this is exactly where TaleWorlds have been consistently disappointing the community. In fact, most updates are released untested by the Developers, in turn causing massive crashes and earrape problems.

They have a dedicated team to test patches IIRC. Obviously they'd share different opinions to the wider community, but they're usually tested. All bugs can't be captured in testing.
 
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