Overland Map Movement Speed

[Mydienon]

I've searched and searched and searched again, but can't find a definitive formula for overland movement speed on the strategic map.  I know soldier units have a "movement speed" value that is hidden, but I don't care about that so much since soldiers may be easily replaced.  I also don't care so much about Riding skill and Athletics skill, which change if I put points there.  And, I don't care so much about morale modifiers which fluctuate constantly.

What I'm trying to figure out is how horses, inventory slots, and weight of inventory figure into the formula.  I've read "rules of thumb" about having 1 horse for every 5 filled inventory slots (including the horse).  I've read that 2-3 horses plus 1 for each NPC is plenty.  I've read that the weight of inventory has no effect on map movement speed.  What I want to know is how exactly movement speed is calculated on the strategic map.

Let's assume I have an army, and carry no equipment whatsoever.  Borcha, Marnid, and my main character are wearing pants, and that's it.  I put one horse in my main character's "mount slot", and 40.0 weight of food in the "food slot".  Now, to make the calculation easier, let's assume that due to my army units, morale, and Riding skill my overland map movement speed is 10.0.

Now I start adding equipment and inventory.  How much can I add before I begin slowing down?  How many horses can I add to offset the slowdown?  At what point do horses become a speed liability?  Is the weight of inventory a factor at all? 

Through testing, I've discovered that if I carry lots of inventory and only 1 horse, my map speed is very slow.  If I remove inventory and leave blank slots, my speed increases.  If I fill these blank slots with horses, my speed increases even more.

I've also discovered that if I carry lots of horses, my map speed is somewhat slow.  If I remove some horses and leave blank slots, my speed increases.

What I can't seem to figure out is how to carry the maximum amount of inventory at the maximum speed.  Can anyone give me the formula, or something better than a "rule of thumb"?

Thanks
--Mydienon

 

[Volkier]

It's like trying to work out the exact value of Pi... At the moment too many factors are involved to try and work it out, so we all just experiment and see what works. Basically the maximum speed is if you are 100% naked / nude on a spirited courser, with speed reduction taking place the moment you put anything in your inventory / your party. You only slow down the increase in this reduction by putting in more horses in your inventory to off-set the loot you are carrying, so rather than speed dropping to 5, it drops to 9.9999. Thats about as much help as I can think of at this late hour of the night..

 

[Mydienon]

Okay, that helps some.  Thanks.

So, a basic formula that ignores Morale, Army Size/Speed, and Riding/Athletics Skill could be...

Map Speed = S - (I/M)

where
S = Naked Speed
I = Speed Penalty for Inventory
M = Speed Penalty Modifier for Horses

I don't need to know the exact numbers--though if anyone has firm numbers I would love to see them.  But, unfortunately, this formula is incorrect.

If this formula were correct, then adding horses would never decrease my map speed.  However, adding horses *does* decrease my map speed.  That's my problem--at some point, horses become a liability, and slow me down.  At some point, a blank slot is faster than a horse.

Inventory is always slower than a horse, and inventory is always slower than a blank slot. 

Horses are FASTER than a blank slot if carrying "a lot" of inventory and "a few" horses.

Horses are SLOWER than a blank slot if carrying "a little" inventory and "a lot" of horses.

I can't seem to find an easy calculation to determine when horses become a liability.  I read somewhere that horses count toward both the "Speed Penalty for Inventory" and the "Speed Penalty Modifier for Horses" (using my terminology).  If that is true, then horses become a liability as soon as their penalty is greater than the inventory penalty.  This formula could be written:

Map Speed = S - [ (I + H) / M ]

where
S = Naked Speed
I = Speed Penalty for Inventory
H = Speed Penalty for Horses
M = Speed Penalty Modifier for Horses

If this formula is correct, then if H is greater than I, the horses are no longer helping your map speed.

------

Does anyone else have a more accurate formula?  Can anyone provide a better guage for determining when horses become a liability? 

Volkier stated that the type of horse ridden affects movement speed.  I had read elsewhere that the type of horse didn't matter at all.  Does the quality of the horse you ride have an affect on strategic map movement?  Does the quality of horses in inventory have any affect?  I would hate for my "Caravan Captain" to run out and buy 20 Spirited Coursers only to find out they move as fast as 20 Lame Sumpter Horses...

------

Thanks for the quick response, Volkier.  It's not so late where I'm writing from--I'm still in that zone of "a couple hourse before bedtime" when I can play without interruptions...

--Mydienon

 

[Alfie(UK)]

Volkier stated that the type of horse ridden affects movement speed.  I had read elsewhere that the type of horse didn't matter at all.  Does the quality of the horse you ride have an affect on strategic map movement?  Does the quality of horses in inventory have any affect?  I would hate for my "Caravan Captain" to run out and buy 20 Spirited Coursers only to find out they move as fast as 20 Lame Sumpter Horses...

I believe that the quality of horse doesn't matter directly but that it's the average of actual movement speeds (I presume of troops and horses) that acts as the base value before encumbrance/inventory calculations.

I don't know if that means pack horse speed is also added in to calculate the average or only used to offset encumbrance/inventory.

 

[Sturmspawn]

You need to search. Seriously.

I do recall, but am not in the mood to research for you, a formula that went like this:
Take the average speed of all horses.
Sum that with the slowest horse and divide by two to obtain the average overland speed of the group.

Not a bad little algorithm but I'm not even sure that it is relevant in this version.

I have also seen statements that all horses that are Unridden [pack pool does not care about type] contribute a speed of 9, and carry a load of 120. Type of Unriddden horses in the pack pool really does not have any effect - search to confirm.

I do know [from personal testing experience] that the type of horse that your character rides [and presumably the horses of companions] has a direct and significant influence on land speed - such that I used to switch between sp.courser for land travel and sp.steppe for battle on a routine and religious basis - the speed difference never exceeded .2 with this and became more dilute as party size went from 20 to 40+. It got tedious, and I often forgot and went into battle on the wrong horse. If I had had to change my companions' horses every time I changed from travel to battle mode, the game would have begun to be slower than real time. However if you haul prisoners of any type, all of this goes out the window immediately - apparently mounted prisoner horses take a -3 speed penalty before any other factorizing, and footsoldier prisoners are also quite balky. Curiously, if an infantry band [no horse to speak of] were to capture an equal size party of all-mounted prisioners they might in fact achieve a speed bonus.

And then, you lose speed for night-time, weather, morale and in some cases terrain conditions. Pathing can also be problematic and you rarely achieve a crow's flight route between two points, so you must allow for some delay in that, even over very short runs.

Does this really matter?
What problem are you trying to solve that requires greater precision?
Your inventory is in practice a changing quantity [you either have loot and/or prisoners, or you don't]. The horse that accelerates your party when you have loot may in fact slow your party when you don't. And? What about horses that you pick up as loot? Way too intangible. This is something like trying to determine if your car's MPG improves on an empty tank. Theoretically, yes, you get an improvement, but practically you would lose the benefit with all the fuel stop sidetrips and starting and stopping the engine to refuel and such.

If you are hunting Khergits - land speeds typically 8.9 - 9.9, they will stop when they feel like confronting you, no sooner, no later, or they will elude you if they choose. You will never be as fast as them. Darks on their pack horses with their huge prisoner pools rarely attain much more than 5.5 [sometimes as poor as 4.2 daylight], and you should normally elude them easily, even on foot. Everyone else is pretty much slower than a 'normal' player party is anyway.

Tracking and spotting skills might be what you need, or use the clearsight cheat?

 

[Mydienon]

You need to search. Seriously.

I did.

I do recall, but am not in the mood to research for you, a formula that went like this:
Take the average speed of all horses.
Sum that with the slowest horse and divide by two to obtain the average overland speed of the group.

That algorithm is actually for soldiers, not horses, and yes, I read it.  Take (Average speed of all soldiers) + (Speed of slowest soldier), divide by 2, and get the average overland speed of the group.

... Type of Unriddden horses in the pack pool really does not have any effect - search to confirm.

Yes, that was my understanding.  Volkier's response made me question whether that information was correct.

I do know [from personal testing experience] that the type of horse that your character rides [and presumably the horses of companions] has a direct and significant influence on land speed - such that I used to switch between sp.courser for land travel and sp.steppe for battle on a routine and religious basis - the speed difference never exceeded .2 with this and became more dilute as party size went from 20 to 40+.

Yes, you've mentioned this before.  I have seen contradicting information, perhaps related to prior versions of M&B.  But I'm really not concerned with this--it's more of a related topic that has little bearing on my original post.  I don't want to go through the hassle of switching mounts constantly.  I'm not trying to increase the speed of my main character.  I'm trying, very specifically, to figure out a formula that allows me to carry maximum inventory at maximum speed.

And then, you lose speed for night-time, weather, morale and in some cases terrain conditions. Pathing can also be problematic and you rarely achieve a crow's flight route between two points, so you must allow for some delay in that, even over very short runs.

Yes, I realize there are many other contributing factors.  However, I'm looking for a formula for maximum inventory at maximum speed (did I just say that?)  Sad soldiers walking through a midnight downpour are external to this formula.  I can achieve maximum inventory at maximum speed during the day...and I'm somewhat confident it will still be maximum inventory at maximum speed at night (unless night makes inventory penalties and horse modifiers lesser or greater, which is entirely possible). 

Of course, if someone knows the formula and knows something I'm not considering has an affect on this specific problem, I would love to hear about it--that's what I'm trying to learn. 

Does this really matter?

Not in any real-world sense.  I'm not going to have an aneurism if I never learn the answer...but this is a forum for asking questions, so I thought it appropriate to ask one that I hadn't seen asked before.

Your inventory is in practice a changing quantity [you either have loot and/or prisoners, or you don't].

Okay, I'm trying to move a large amount of 40-weight cargo (all of the trade goods except Smoked Fish and Wheat weigh 40).  I hope to avoid combat and avoid picking up any loot.  I have small personal inventories for 3 characters that include armor and weapons, and a much larger pool of inventory slots dedicated to exactly two things: horses and cargo.

I can maximize cargo by eliminating all the horses.  I don't want to do that.  I can maximize speed by eliminating all the cargo and most of the horses.  I don't want to do that either.  What I want to do is achieve the maximum amount of cargo at the maximum speed.

If you are hunting Khergits - land speeds typically 8.9 - 9.9, they will stop when they feel like confronting you, no sooner, no later, or they will elude you if they choose. You will never be as fast as them. Darks on their pack horses with their huge prisoner pools rarely attain much more than 5.5 [sometimes as poor as 4.2 daylight], and you should normally elude them easily, even on foot. Everyone else is pretty much slower than a 'normal' player party is anyway.

I have characters with small armies of mounted soldiers that can outrun Khergits, and I have had characters move slower than 4.2 when I'm maximizing cargo at the cost of speed (usually at the beginning when I have very few horses, and a large load of fish and furs to offload). 

Tracking and spotting skills might be what you need, or use the clearsight cheat?

Actually, I need Riding and Pathfinding skills to improve my speed.  But again, that's unrelated to my core question. 

I have also seen statements that all horses that are Unridden [pack pool does not care about type] contribute a speed of 9, and carry a load of 120. Type of Unriddden horses in the pack pool really does not have any effect - search to confirm.
...
The horse that accelerates your party when you have loot may in fact slow your party when you don't.

The speed 9 / load 120 statement could be a very big help.  Unfortunately, when I add a lot of horses, my speed does not slowly drift toward 9.  I would hesitate to call this the actual calculation in .808, though it may have been true in prior versions.  The fact that extra horses do slow you down when you have no loot is quite central to my original post...at what point are extra horses more a liability than a help to my caravan, assuming I do have a lot of "loot" and all of that "loot" is actually "40-weight trade merchandise"?

Basically, here is how I would test something like this in-game without using cheats:
-  Carry standard combat gear 
-  Fill remaining inventory with horses, and go to the Salt Mine
-  Wait/rest until morning and a sunny, clear day (for maximum high-quality testing time)
-  Check my map movement speed
-  Sell 1 horse, and check my speed (if speed goes down, buy the horse again--finished testing)
-  Buy 1 salt, and check my speed again (speed will either stay the same or decrease, because inventory is slower than a horse)
-  Repeat from "Sell 1 horse..."

The character I used to test this ran out of money before I thought of using salt (the cheapest 40-weight trade commodity).  That character was also attacked on the way out of Khudan, and lost a third of his force to Dark Hunters--so all the numbers I'd collected are no longer valid for that character.  I also figured it would be easier to have an equation to look at than to test this blindly.  And, I wanted to discover whether the weight of the inventory has any affect on the amount of the speed penalty.  It seems to, and logic would suggest that it does, but I prefer to start with facts that I can then test for myself.

------
Anyway, thank you for your thorough response, Sturmspawn.  Your gameplay suggestions have been very helpful in other threads.  And thanks to Alfie for more observations. 

Does anyone have more insight?  If I'm the only person interested in this very picky, specific point, then I'll quietly bow out and test it some day when I'm again planning to move a lot of cargo through enemy territory. 

--Mydienon

 

[Sturmspawn]

Thanks for your thorough response....
I'm generally known for bluntness, so don't take it the wrong way.
Here's my thoughts.

I think your approach is possibly too micro for the way this aspect of the game operates -
If you are using speed as a way to evade other parties, you might consider a few alternatives.
In M&B, the journey is the destination [one never really stops moving, but there's never really anywhere to go].
Pathfinding will improve overaland speed - Ride will not.
Spotting would help you see them before they see you.
Travel at night, although all parties have impaired spotting - and speeds are slower - normally results in fewer encounters [subjective but practiced]. Part of my primary characters' persona is night travel - we do this a lot, but I also bump up spotting and pathfinding and tracking: I also track and lay in wait a good deal. 

I'm still puzzled why you need or want to carry 'high' volumes at 'maximum' speed. I had one character - a female merchant who did a lot of trade - including a lot of interleaved transits where the party would be carrying stuff for two or three destinations out, and I never had more than about 9-12 slots in use - using about 5-6 regular coursers as pack team. The problem is like this - the merchants at the other end do not have enough cash to buy you out, and you just end up either selling at a discount, or making side return loops after three or four days to complete the sale. Not much point in hurrying then. 

So is this a trade thing you are trying to do? As an econ process, M&B just doesn't work over the long term - it's not that kind of game. There's enough differentials to permit you to develop some cash, but one good Sea Raider battle will net more cash than two or three full trade circuits - and a lot faster. Because of the way merchant inventories work, you can not rely on supply [the town may produce stuff, but you are hauling it out faster then they can make it], or demand [as mentioned, the merchants just don't have the cash - try taking more than three bolts of velvet to Reyvadin, and you'll see].

Just curious.

 

[Mydienon]

...
In M&B, the journey is the destination [one never really stops moving, but there's never really anywhere to go].
...
I'm still puzzled why you need or want to carry 'high' volumes at 'maximum' speed. I had one character - a female merchant who did a lot of trade - including a lot of interleaved transits where the party would be carrying stuff for two or three destinations out, and I never had more than about 9-12 slots in use - using about 5-6 regular coursers as pack team. The problem is like this - the merchants at the other end do not have enough cash to buy you out, and you just end up either selling at a discount, or making side return loops after three or four days to complete the sale. Not much point in hurrying then. 

So is this a trade thing you are trying to do?
...

The merchants in specific towns pay the best price for trade goods, but you can sell to armor/weapon shops for a profit as well.  Actually, you can sell in any town for a profit, even if your trade skill is low (with Marnid in your party, you get a trade skill of at least 2, which is more than enough to turn a small profit anywhere you go).

Supply cities frequently don't have enough merchandise to fill my inventory.  But what you said--it's the journey not the destination--applies to trade as well.  There are 6 chests in this game.  I have a character who travels to various towns in the vicinity of a chest, does some combat around those towns, sells the combat loot, and buys trade goods.  She takes the trade goods back to the town with the chest, stores the inventory, and repeats.  She also picks up any convenient merchant quests that are located in the same area.  Once the chest is full of specific merchandise (merchandise she wants to sell to a few towns in another area), she picks it all up, buys more from the nearby towns to fill her inventory, and travels across the map to a new region.  There, she repeats the process--first selling all of the inventory (which may take a few days), and buying whatever merchandise is cheap in the new area.

Paradoxically, her goal is not money.  Instead, I use the merchandise to barter down the price of stuff I want to buy.  And, I thought it would be fun to develop a smuggler.  My eventual plan is to make both Vaegir and Swadian enemies, and then run merchandise.  I don't know if this is stupid or not--but it's something to try, and the idea amuses me.

Actually, she's not that far along in the process, and I'm still trying to identify the most lucrative trade routes (yes I've read other threads on that topic).  She's practicing avoiding bandits/hunters/etc and using various tricks (and skills) to accomplish this.  The appeal, for me, is that I'm playing a character who is a *target*. 

My other characters pick and choose battles, and I go to battle without much fear of losing.  Their biggest fear is attrition, or getting ambushed after a tough battle.  Instead, I want to have a character who is trying to avoid fighting, but who, when ambushed, is sometimes able to turn the tide and walk away victorious.  This isn't about trying to make the most powerful M&B character possible, or following the best possible path through the game.  It's about trying something a little different, seeing if it's fun, and experimenting.

------
So anyway, while developing this character, I realized I was moving along on one trade route at a whopping speed of 3.9.  I had lots of merchandise to sell, so I used that to buy a bunch of Sumpter Horses (especially lame ones) from towns near Zendar.  I realized that I wanted to carry lots of merchandise, and so my speed would suffer.  But I wanted to get it as fast as possible, while still carrying as many trade goods as possible. 

Is this a boring and stupid way to play M&B?  I don't know.  M&B is a combat simulator, and I play it for the combat.  But it's also an unfinished open-ended game, which means I need to come up with my own goals for each character.  I have a lot of characters trying to collect one of every base item type in the game, just so I can play dress-up and decide what outfit looks coolest.  I have one character who goes shirtless into battle--specifically because I want to use a shield as his primary defense.  I have a character who is trying to achieve maximum speed while still being effective in combat--she was moving at a pace of 11.7 with Marnid, Borcha, and 4 soldiers, all combat-ready with armor and weapons. 

------
But all of this is OT.  The character I'm concerned with here is still trying to achieve maximum inventory at maximum speed.  Does the reason why really matter?  It's a game.  It's something to do.  It amuses me. 

If anyone can help out I'd appreciate it!

--Mydienon

 

[Sturmspawn]

Thanks for the illumination - it was fascinating.
one last clue - that has as much to do with the real world as this game or this board...
Eliciting empathy by describing what you want/need/expect is often more effective than simply asking a very specific question.

 

[Alfie(UK)]

Actually, she's not that far along in the process, and I'm still trying to identify the most lucrative trade routes (yes I've read other threads on that topic).  She's practicing avoiding bandits/hunters/etc and using various tricks (and skills) to accomplish this.  The appeal, for me, is that I'm playing a character who is a *target*. 

If you want some help on trade routes I have a break down of the buy/sell (@ Trade skill 0) prices for merchant goods in each town in Native (with rough x/y co-ords/distances).

I guess like you I was trying to build a more representative trade table that didn't just show the merchant quoted trade routes and allowed for travel and re-stock times.

The only reason I didn't go further with it is it felt a bit like min-maxing instead of playing and as others have said there are easier/quicker ways to make money by fighting/looting, particularly when often merchants don't have the cash for a large load of goods mid-game, yet looted armour/weapons can be sold at all 3 traders in a town thereby increasing your money pool.

 

[Mydienon]

If you want some help on trade routes I have a break down of the buy/sell (@ Trade skill 0) prices for merchant goods in each town in Native (with rough x/y co-ords/distances).

Actually, yes, I would like to see that!  I figured I would do that eventually.  Can you post it here?  Other weird trade-a-holics may want to see it as well.

Most of my characters focus on combat, to a greater or lesser degree.  I have only a few characters interested in trade, and none of them are dedicated solely to trading.  So it's a passive interest, but one I'd like to play around with a bit more. 

... particularly when often merchants don't have the cash for a large load of goods mid-game, yet looted armour/weapons can be sold at all 3 traders in a town thereby increasing your money pool.

Actually, all 3 traders in town will purchase trade goods--but in towns where a trade good is "desired" they pay less than the merchant.

Trading works well for startup cash--just buy what you can afford and start going to the cities.  It takes a few days of game time to hit every city, but if you move fast and carry small amounts, it will take just an hour or two real-time and you may not get attacked at all.  The towns aren't far apart, so you can stop in each town on the way and rest in a tavern if enemies are nearby.  Also, you can ask at each town's merchant for a mission--many times I'm offered a relatively small amount of denars to go to the next town I was planning to visit.  Free money and experience. 

Of course, you can also run around and kill River Pirates and Sea Raiders for that hour or two real-time.  Me?  I like variety.  That's why I switch characters depending on my mood.  Or...or...maybe I'm schizophrenic...

--noneidyM

 

[Volkier]

I believe that the quality of horse doesn't matter directly but that it's the average of actual movement speeds (I presume of troops and horses) that acts as the base value before encumbrance/inventory calculations.

I don't know if that means pack horse speed is also added in to calculate the average or only used to offset encumbrance/inventory.

AFAIK, the speed of the horse that is used as a "pack-horse" doesn't matter. In other words, having lame sumpters in your inventory to carry all that dried meat would reduce the penalty the same way as having spirited coursers doing the same job. I do think that the horse you are actually riding contributes to the map speed however - since that is directly your movement speed minus whatever inventory. Do some tests if you want though - I may be wrong on this ::\

 

[Alfie(UK)]

If you want some help on trade routes I have a break down of the buy/sell (@ Trade skill 0) prices for merchant goods in each town in Native (with rough x/y co-ords/distances).

Actually, yes, I would like to see that!  I figured I would do that eventually.  Can you post it here?  Other weird trade-a-holics may want to see it as well.

It's over 4,000 rows (each town and trade good x town) so I'll link out to it rather than post it here

http://www.delphia.co.uk/temp/MandB_Trade_Analysis.csv saved as a CSV file, approx 225kb (right-click the link and save as).

The X/Y co-ords are taken from a screen print map so very rough, and distances are 'as the crow flys'. Hope it's useful.

 

[Mydienon]

Wow, that's impressive!  Thanks for the spreadsheet...now, who wants to Dijkstra-ize it?  (yes, I did have to look up the spelling...)

I'll have to look at the numbers more later; the most interesting thing, I think, is to determine when trading becomes less valuable than combat.  At low levels, doing a couple loops of a profitable trade route can turn a pitiful 100 denars into 1000 quite quickly--faster than killing river pirates, in my opinion.  I haven't reached high levels yet, but it sounds like trade is a lot less useful when fighting huge battles with more expensive loot than you can carry.  I'll probably have a character or two focus on trade long-term, while the rest will use it more as a phase in their career.

AFAIK, the speed of the horse that is used as a "pack-horse" doesn't matter. In other words, having lame sumpters in your inventory to carry all that dried meat would reduce the penalty the same way as having spirited coursers doing the same job. I do think that the horse you are actually riding contributes to the map speed however - since that is directly your movement speed minus whatever inventory. Do some tests if you want though - I may be wrong on this ::\

Since I haven't gotten any conclusive, absolute answer, I'll test this a bit.  The problem with testing is that the displayed map speed shows only to one decimal place--so changing the ridden horse, adding a horse or two, or selling some of that dried meat doesn't always change the displayed movement speed.  Anyway, it's just a matter of testing enough to find the breakpoints in speed changes, and then identify the inventory changes I can make to affect specific changes. 

I'm not in any rush to do a lot of testing at this point.  Right now, I'm enjoying the game, learning and experimenting with tactics, developing my play-style, and becoming accustomed to controlling my characters in combat.  I'm still learning what I can and can't do, and if it ever does, when the can/can't changes.  However, when I do start into testing, I will post any results that are different from other information, or that don't exist elsewhere. 

--Mydienon

 

[Alfie(UK)]

Wow, that's impressive!  Thanks for the spreadsheet...now, who wants to Dijkstra-ize it?  (yes, I did have to look up the spelling...)

You'd need to take into account all of the obstacles to travel (mountains/forests) for a proper weighting map, but I didn't go that far with it because as discussed up-thread there are other factors that render such a tactic less useful (i.e. quantity of goods available, merchant cash, increasing size of enemy parties making some areas more dangerous, etc).

 

[cliffjeff]

bump because this has been bothering me too =p I want a fast army, but I don't want a small army.  right now, all I do is fill up my companions' inventories entirely with horses, and my inventory is generally empty until I loot a party I kill.  I'm trying to lead an army of all knights and other mounted NPCs (but I'm not about to dismiss my 5 or so Swadian Sharpshooters... they make swiss cheese of the bad guys).  My question that remains is, are the horses in my companions' inventories speeding me up or slowing me down? 

I guess I should just sell a few at a time to test it out...

 

[Shik]

Horses will average out to slow you down if you already have a very fast army, with a high speed, but if you are leading a infantry army or carrying loads of trade items, the horses will average out to boost your speed.

 

[Lamjose]

Definitely sell a few if you dont have some heavy loot with you. Food slows me down the most. I try to keep about 3-4 horses as spares personally.