Original M&B Supporter

[Azoreo]

When I first bought M&B - if I remember correctly - the idea was you're paying for an incomplete product, but you're getting a low price, and over time we're going to add to and grow the product.  That happened.  I paid $18, and over time M&B was added to and refined.  Warband is billed as a sequel to M&B in one place, although it's not.  It's also called an expansion, but it's awfully, awfully close to the vanilla game.  Having looked at what's on offer, it seems like another round of additions and refinements; except that this time the price tag has been reapplied. 

Before you go all vitriolic on me, remember that when this was small, obscure, buggy, I forked over money that helped support it.

It would be nice to hear a more candid explanation of why with this re-release the price tag was re-applied - and not for the "new stuff", M&B gave me new stuff without adding on a new price for a long time.

Did the developers want or need a fresh infusion of money that the original, loyal base needed to be a part of?  Did a publisher or someone nix the idea of continuing access for initial supporters?  Is the game so wildly different that it's not like vanilla M&B that it's worth investing another $29.99 when I've paid $18.00 for what looks like nearly the same thing, and I'm just wrong?

Why wasn't there some kind of offer to redeem older serial keys for a $10/$20 discount off this new re-release?

 

[Orion]

I specifically recall Armagan stating that they were "most probably" going to have a discount for those who owned the original M&B, yet I also recall reading another statement by Armagan that said the production costs of Warband exceeded their expectations, and this was maybe halfway through the closed beta.

You have to realize that while a lot of things might not seem "new" to you, or they might seem rather simple, they cost a lot to put in. The horses had animation changes. Did you notice? That was done with motion capture. Now we all know about the infrared camera rig with a guy wearing the suit with little white balls on it, but how do you suppose they mo-capped a horse? Well, they did, and it cost them. All of the player animations are mo-capped too.

That in itself is quite an investment of time and money. They've also added in a new physics system they had to purchase licensing for (Havok). Add on to that all of the other graphical enhancements like HDR and a remake of lots of old items & textures plus a whole slew of new ones, you've got quite a workload. That's just basic "additions," too, like what lots of people seem to think Warband is made up of entirely. Also take into consideration all of the new singleplayer features, the vastly-improved depth of politics, etc. Then there's multiplayer, but I won't rehash my view on that.

All in all, if you don't think it's worth $30 then don't buy it. You should be using that logic with just about every purchase you make, I don't see why so many people fail to use it here.

 

[advil]

I have to agree 100% here.  I'm not trying to be some offensive dissatisfied customer, but this is not very nice.  I paid the full $30 for the game when it was still a buggy mess because it had potential and I enjoyed what Taleworlds was trying to do.  I'm all for supporting the small fry when they are getting started.  The understanding was that we'd be getting the updates to the game as they came out.

This, however, is nothing more than where the original concept was heading.  This is no sequel and can only speciously be called an expansion pack.  It does not include updates deserving of total repurchase especially when the entire idea was the original getting worked on.

There's not co-op here or some other groundbreaking feature.  The multi that was added is not a primary selling point.

Guys, PLEASE do the honorable and ethical thing and step up to the plate and give the folks who paid your bills for the last two years what they PAID for the first time.  You've got a polished product now.  New customers should be buying your game now.  Don't treat your loyal paying fanbase this way.

 

[Orion]

I have to agree 100% here.  I'm not trying to be some offensive dissatisfied customer, but this is not very nice.  I paid the full $30 for the game when it was still a buggy mess because it had potential and I enjoyed what Taleworlds was trying to do.  I'm all for supporting the small fry when they are getting started.  The understanding was that we'd be getting the updates to the game as they came out.

This, however, is nothing more than where the original concept was heading.  This is no sequel and can only speciously be called an expansion pack.  It does not include updates deserving of total repurchase especially when the entire idea was the original getting worked on.

There's not co-op here or some other groundbreaking feature.  The multi that was added is not a primary selling point.

Guys, PLEASE do the honorable and ethical thing and step up to the plate and give the folks who paid your bills for the last two years what they PAID for the first time.  You've got a polished product now.  New customers should be buying your game now.  Don't treat your loyal paying fanbase this way.

This is quite stupid. You got updates to the original after release: it went from 1.0 up to 1.011 in time. Now you've got Warband. You aren't considering any of the new features in a fair light, you've already come to the conclusion that you've been ripped off and now you're trying to rationalize it in that respect.

Guess what, multiplayer is a primary selling point. That's such a ****in' dead horse that even I feel bad about beating it more.

The "honorable and ethical thing" in business is to make money without totally screwing your customers. Essentially, don't commit fraud. TaleWorlds isn't being fraudulent or unfair in their business practice. You can claim "this is where the original concept was heading" but for years TaleWorlds stated multiplayer wasn't even possible with their engine. That in itself proves your naive claim false.

Now please, buy some snake oil so your resentment can be well-placed.

All in all, if you don't think it's worth $30 then don't buy it. You should be using that logic with just about every purchase you make, I don't see why so many people fail to use it here.

 

[advil]

Alrighty.  So you are the guy who is going to reply and flame every poster who has something negative to say?  Ok.

"This is quite stupid..."
Calling me stupid is a bad way to start a argument.  I paid money for this game, and I just wanted to make a comment.  I did that.  And you jumped down my throat.  Great.

"That's such a ****in' dead horse..."
Resort to cussing when you want to sound superior.  It's no dead horse to me as I just saw the new release and I don't give a damn (look, harsh language to make a point) about vs. multiplayer.  Co-op I'd like to see, but not this.  That's my opinion.  You can have your own.

"All in all, if you don't think it's worth $30 then don't buy it. You should be using that logic with just about every purchase you make, I don't see why so many people fail to use it here."
Maybe because I paid money for the original game and I do, in fact, feel that we deserved this one as an update and not a stand alone purchase?!?!?!  Gee, hard concept.  Sorry you don't agree.

"Also, don't try picking a word-fight with Orion. That'd be like comparing sizes with Pavlov."
Your tagline shows you to be a young, insecure and arrogant prick.  A little maturity and respect in your responses would be appreciated in the future.

Oh, and Orion, I like Mount and Blade quite a bit... or I wouldn't be here at all.  I just wanted to make my opinion known along with Azoreo. 

 

[Azoreo]

Advil, I don't really agree with the way you responded, but I do have to agree that Orion needs to pack it in, somewhat.

Orion?  I do use logic with most purchases, there was no need to include your little sleight at the end of your reply.  I'm here, *politely*, expressing an opinion and asking for a reply.

What you said convinced me to give the demo a go.  What's listed in the games features sure as heck don't make much an argument for the early-adopters to purchase the game (again) - but more detailed information on what went into refining Warband does, and it might do well to include it somewhere people like me can see that.

 

[Yondering]

well.. I'm new to M&B in general, but I feel I had to chime in..
I bought the original m&b about 2 weeks before warband was released.  Because I was having a ball with the demo, stuck at level 7.  I got my $30 out of it while I waited for warband.  Money well spent.

I bought warband on release day.  Another $30.  Guess what?  I *don't* feel gypped, cheated, ripped off, or robbed.  I'm enjoying it, and I don't mind supporting devs who produce software that I plan to use or enjoy regularly.  Yeah, it's buggy, but they're working hard on it, and it's still fun.

Exactly how much enjoyment did you get out of the first M&B?  two years worth?  for thirty bucks?

My 2 cents.. for what it's worth.

 

[Berserker Pride]

And to the OP do you honestly think the 18 dollars you paid is enough to support the game for years and years?  The devs can't make a living off good intentions.  Its great that you bought the game a long time ago but a one-time purchase does not mean that you get every future expansion free.  You are pretty naive if you believe that.

30$ is half the price of a modern game btw.

 

[Orion]

advil: It's pretty simple, actually.

What I said: "This is quite stupid."

Read it.

What you think I said: "You are quite stupid."

Notice the change? I never said you were stupid, I said your post was. You made it quite clear that you didn't know just how much went into Warband financially. Expecting hundreds of hours of work and large monetary investment for free is quite naive. Perhaps I should have said "ignorant" instead. That brings me to this:

"That's such a ****in' dead horse..."
Resort to cussing when you want to sound superior.  It's no dead horse to me as I just saw the new release and I don't give a damn (look, harsh language to make a point) about vs. multiplayer.

Ok, so my messages use vocabulary that I reserve for casual conversation. So what? You're the one making this into a contest of superiority. The fact that you bothered to point out a word and try to devalue it proves you're just trying to ride a higher horse than I am. Speaking of horses, this whole discussion is beating the dead horse. There are several topics where Azoreo could have posted his opinion regarding the value of Warband, but because he wasn't foaming at the mouth about being cheated I responded to him in an informative and polite manner. You came along with your pitiful disclaimer: "I'm not trying to be some offensive dissatisfied customer, but..." But what? That's exactly how you portrayed your self. I responded in kind.

Then you jump to the superiority complex and make it a personal e-penis contest.

Anyway, your opinion is fine. Have it, but if you voice it don't throw a hissyfit when someone disagrees.

Advil, I don't really agree with the way you responded, but I do have to agree that Orion needs to pack it in, somewhat.

Orion?  I do use logic with most purchases, there was no need to include your little sleight at the end of your reply.  I'm here, *politely*, expressing an opinion and asking for a reply.

What you said convinced me to give the demo a go.  What's listed in the games features sure as heck don't make much an argument for the early-adopters to purchase the game (again) - but more detailed information on what went into refining Warband does, and it might do well to include it somewhere people like me can see that.

Sorry if I came across that way, there's been a lot of new threads on this topic popping up, and most of them have been quite offensive. It's great that you're trying the demo before buying. That could have saved quite a few "zomg does I seariouslay has 2 rebuy dis game?" threads.

Exactly how much enjoyment did you get out of the first M&B?  two years worth?  for thirty bucks?

5 years, $11. Might be why my view on the matter is a little skewed.

 

[Feragorn]

In response to the flaming/*****ing going on here.

This is TaleWorlds. Live with it. Thats just how the forums work here.

 

[Nebless]

Well heck, I just looked it up and I paid $30.00 for M&B 2 years ago.  Wish I would have gotten in back in the .860 days when it was what? $7.00?

Yes when I first came to the forums Warband was talked about being M&B2, just an add on type thing.  Then it morphed into Warband with the main selling point being Multi-player.  That part alone probably makes it worth another $30.00 bucks. 

Is the SPG that much nicer than M&B?  Vanilla vs Vanilla - yea and that answer comes from just doing a few hours today of the trial.  Is the SPG Warband worth $30.00?  I'd say no, since you can mod M&B up the ying yang and pretty much get the same thing, but and here's where we go back to my earlier sentence.  Warbands main selling point isn't the SPG, it's the Multi-player portion.

As far as having to pay another $30.00 for Warband.  Costs in general; be it electricity, computers, gas etc... etc.... have risen since they started working on it.  Take a car into a shop for an oil change.  Materials $50.00, Labor $300.00.  No one worked for free making Warband and Paradox sure isn't going to publish it for free.  For what you're getting $30.00 is cheap.  Go buy Star Wars: Republic Commando, play if for the 15 - 20 hours it takes to finish it and tell me it was worth the $49.99 my kids paid for it. 

As far as getting a discount for old serial keys; well you'd need a sliding scale then wouldn't you?  After all why should the guy that bought his 2 weeks ago get the same discount as someone who bought it 5 years ago?

 

[original]

Personally I do feel a bit ripped off.

I see it in reverse, if Warblade is merely M&B v2.0, why should I then even buy the original M&B? I just wasted US$5 on something, which Warband already has, and a bit more. If they had told me how Warblade would be, then I wouldn't have spent US$5 on the first M&B.

Warblade is supposed to be different enough to be considered a sequel. But when I loaded it for the first time, even the starting music is the same. The first impression is already not good. Graphics got a overhaul yes, but most of the conversation texts are the same. Most of the quests are reused. Even the wordings are the same.

Not to mention long-time bugs from M&B1 still hasn't been fixed. One small one is the half-wages you get for resting in a town/castle/manor. I actually debugged the code and found out why it wasn't working, and provided a fix on the bugs forums. But the bug still exists in Warband.

Prisoner selling price is supposed to be based on the prisoner level, not the default 50. Most of the code to calculate the prisoner cost is already there, they just forgot to assign the calculated value, so the default 50 got reused. But again, they didn't correct it.

What about the infamous shield bug? Have they fixed it?

I'll still continue to support Taleworlds because I admire their courage in the mounted combat innovation. It's 2010, and an indie company has done something that multimillion companies still have yet to do.
Despite Warband being mostly the same, I am very impressed with the vibrant economy. Again, I don't think I have seen anything like it in other games. Other games just have fixed selling prices for items, or they use a randomizer to simulate the difference in price. In Warband, it seems like there is a real supply and demand going on. I want to know more on how it work, if I sell grain to a town, will they turn it into bread and wine?
The politics is also very intriguing. Lords can now defect to another faction. I can even influence Lords to nominate me as the new owner of a newly acquired village or castle.

So I'm willing to overlook the initial bad impression because the new stuff make it worth it, once they get everything working and fix all bugs. But again I hope they consider some rebate because Warband reuses a lot of stuff from M&B1.

 

[Orion]

Yeah, it reuses a lot. The original Mount&Blade was really a jumping-off point or Warband, but then again that's why it's being marketed as an expansion and not a sequel.

Not to mention you don't need the original game to play: you could just have Warband without the original and you would notice no difference.

As for a discount if you already own the original, the idea was in the works but the production costs for Warband exceeded TaleWorlds' estimations. I suspect they didn't offer the discount because they had to make up for exceeding their budget. So... you bought M&B on sale for $5, and Warband for $30. $35 for this gets you more gameplay than any new game that comes out for $50. I'd call it a good investment.

 

[Al3xand3r]

Have to say I agree whole heartily, and I've already purchased and played the game so I know what it includes and don't need anyone to tell me "but they have this or that, so it's totally worth it" or whatever.

Let's not forget they were even supposed to add many more features to M&B, back when they sold it as beta claiming they would eventually add full storylines and what not, yet vanilla M&B still has but a handful of quests that endlessly repeat. The main site even listed that after the plans for such additions were clearly cancelled. Still, we sucked it up and said ok, do what you must, we support you.

Then Warband was announced as an expansion. Okay, we understood, an expansion still costs less than a full new game and you plan some major additions, so, we understand, we support you is what we said and did.

Then Warband became a full stand alone game. Again, we understood, especially since some kind of lower price point for existing users was implied.

Then it ended up with a HIGHER COST THAN THE ORIGINAL for a large portion of the userbase. Yet me and others said ok, Armagan knows what he's doing, we understand, and even pre-purchased it.

It turns out he did know what he was doing, but not in that way. I do feel ripped off. I bought it on good faith but despite the big talk for the added features it feels like a mere new version number of the same game. The money spent on improving the visuals were, frankly, wasted (the game still looks crap and like it's a 2002 game, visuals isn't what we buy it for) and should have been spent on many more actual new content and features and bugfixes given the many issues it's still plagued with (remember, it's no longer a beta). If you wanna see better visuals you're once again going to have to rely on the fans, like Polished Landscapes (I do hope it's finished at some point) and whatever else is going to be made.

The multiplayer doesn't interest me because it's very, very underdeveloped and in my opinion sloppy with many issues that are fine in SP but when exploited by players online make it crap. It's very barebones in any case.

The single player has some additions but few of them haven't already been done by mods, even if they're ever so slightly better here (like the morale, which in the user made mod causes enemies to stick to the edges of the map, while in Warband they actually exit the battle map and form into a new party that tries to flee - though in the mod it seems to happen more often and more realistically, not just when there are too few units left).

In any case, it won't last as long as the first game since progression through it feels much the same with the same skills, same battles, same armor and weapons aside from a few additions which aren't even top tier items and will therefor see little use (like the Elite armors which have similar stats to the Heraldic mail armors, give or take a point or two, yet are heavier).

It's the same game with a few enhancements that aren't beyond the scope of mods (or version numbers), and overall have lesser scope than mods like Sword of Damocles do.

It's quite absurd that people are asked to pay more or about as much as they paid for M&B, especially in Europe (I paid $25 which at the time was like less than 20 euros, Warband cost me 26.95 euros which today is $36 or so) for this thing.

My advice to every owner of M&B is to wait for a price cut, by Christmas it's probably going to be on some Steam deal for $15 or less. It's worth about that much as far as new content goes. Unless you really want to play multiplayer or something, but imo that will get old very fast even for those who like it and it will be up to mods to offer actually compelling game modes that go beyond the simple barebones content included.

For new users however, Warband is the version they should get, and they'll get their money's worth with the playability of this grand game. Just a shame long time supporters got ****ed over like this.