Opinion of Napoleon

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Almalexia

Her Flamboyance, the Calipha
Duke
Well, pretty simple premise. I was wondering of your opinion of ole Boney! It seems to me that nowadays he gets a far worse rap than he deserves, seeing as he made some revolutionary changes in society, like the Napoleonic Code, and not treating minorities like ****. And I absolve him of responsibility for the wars because it is my belief that war is ultimately inevitable, and most of the wars were declared upon him anyhow.  :razz: In regards to "liberty" and "freedoms", ahh... France was hardly the shining example of either during the Revolution, and I don't exactly see it as a wrongdoing to put them into a corner and make the adults make the big decisions, but that's me. But in any case, my main point against that is that representation does not exactly equal freedom: the ability to chose your leaders doesn't exactly make you free.

Enough of my rambling: discuss.
 
Boney was allright. Besides what you said above, he put an end to the conflict between the revolutionary state and the church with the Concordat of 1801.

However, some years later he sent half a million men to their deaths in Russia, which was quite an assholish thing to do.
 
Captured Joe said:
However, some years later he sent half a million men to their deaths in Russia, which was quite an assholish thing to do.
Very much unintended. He wanted to force Alexander I to a truce, not invade Russia.
Anyway, he was a warmonger and caused the deaths of many people in his megalomaniacal pursuit to conquer Europe.
 
I think of Napoleon a lot like I do Hitler, great man who had some good ideas and the power to implement them, spoiled by letting the power go to his head and by ultimately going quite ****ing batty.
 
Adorno said:
Very much unintended. He wanted to force Alexander I to a truce, not invade Russia.
Anyway, he was a warmonger and caused the deaths of many people in his megalomaniacal pursuit to conquer Europe.

So basically any ruler in Europe prior to the 1800s.  :razz: What set him apart from any old King is he wanted actual, lasting change, and social reform to end many medieval inequities all over Europe. And to be fair, most of the messy war crimes stem from the population rising up despite honorable, even generous, terms of occupation by the French (Spain, notably. Also in Moscow Napoleon tried his best to keep the population fed, and reimburse them for lost possessions and fortunes). But people love to fight so they can keep oppressing others, or even themselves, so oh well.  :razz:
 
Guy from the past who is judged mostly by 20th century standards, while other of his contemporaries are not. Things like: "allright class, you will make projects to your history class. 1st group has Hitler, 2nd has Stalin and 3rd group has Nappy" somehow really manage to piss me off.

Great man.
 
Very much unlike any European ruler before him. Or well at the very least most of them. Ever since the dissolution of the Frankish Empire, Europe was all about the balance of powers. I would go as far as saying that the balance of powers is the very essence of European politics.

Not that there weren't ruler who tried to upset it with varying degrees of success (Frederick II, a whole succession of English kings during the 100 years war Francis I, Charles V, Ferdinand II, Louis XIV), but I don't think anyone of them - unlike Napoleon - actually realistically plotted a total conquest of Europe.

None of them was also driven by the urge to create a new world, a new society. On the contrary, they were all old school guys,  who thought this or that land was their birthright.

Napoleon was unique. He makes for a great story, although admittedly Tolstoy already squeezed out basically all there is literature-wise and all you can do is retell War and Peace in different ways. Bummer.
 
Amontadillo said:
He was a warmonger in that he incited wars to procure France's dominance. This proves the other two points. Done.

Again, this is an unsubstantiated claim. You can't merely say he incited wars without giving some examples.

France didn't start a single war unprovoked during Napoleon's reign. He certainly held some responsibility for the breakdown of the Treaty of Amiens, but no more than the British.

The wars of the Third, Fourth and Fifth Coalitions were all declared on France by her enemies. The Third and Fifth formed at the behest of the British and the Fourth started mainly as result of Napoleon's creation of the Confederation of the Rhine, which the Prussians regarded as a threat to their power in central Europe. The people within the Confederation were all for it, though, at least until things started to go badly for the French. The fact that Napoleon had attempted to give Hanover to the British was also a sore point for the Prussians.

Entire books have been written about the causes of the French invasion of Spain, but suffice it to say that Spain had been a very poor ally and had long been planning to turn on the French.

Napoleon's 1812 invasion of Russia was inevitable as Russia had been planning since 1810 to turn on France and and launch an invasion of Poland. The Russians were very much afraid of a Polish state which they exerted no control over and wanted the Duchy of Warsaw out of the picture. Napoleon's forcing of Russia to adhere to the continental system certainly provoked them further, but I doubt it had as much an effect as some historians would suggest; Russian had no great need of trade with Britain and the two had never been close allies (the greatest extent of the collaboration between Alexander and the British was when they had Paul assassinated).

Napoleon found himself in a situation where he had no choice but to invade Russia or fight a defensive war in Poland. Looking back, the latter may have been the better idea, but Napoleon was never one to sit on his ass and wait for the enemy.

All of the participants of the War of the Sixth Coalition declared war on France, save (obviously) for Russia.

The war of the Seventh Coalition (as in the Waterloo campaign) was declared against Napoleon, who had attempted to sue for peace when he returned to power.

I'm no great supporter of Napoleon, nor am I attempting to absolve him of any responsibility for the wars he fought, but I believe the suggestion that he was a warmonger to be largely baseless.
 
Austupaio said:
I think of Napoleon a lot like I do Hitler, great man who had some good ideas and the power to implement them, spoiled by letting the power go to his head and by ultimately going quite ****ing batty.
Except one of those started off with the intention to harm a huge group of innocents. Neither of them went batty; Hitler already was it, Napoleon died sane.
 
Tiberius Decimus Maximus said:
And to be fair, most of the messy war crimes stem from the population rising up despite honorable, even generous, terms of occupation by the French (Spain, notably)
"Hello, natives. We come to remove the burden of religion on your society and your stupid useless king. We bring you freedom, knowledge, equality, progress, a tiny bit of democracy... "
"**** you. Our king is a stupid bastard, but is OUR stupid bastard. And we love to be religious nuts! Die, heretics! Long life the king! Hurrah for the chains! (of slavery)" (always saw the war in Afghanistan too similar to Napoleon and Spain)

Anyway, war is war nonetheless: even the British and Portuguese, theoretically allies, went on looting and pillaging villages. Every foreigner was an enemy.
 
Adorno said:
Very much unintended. He wanted to force Alexander I to a truce, not invade Russia.
Anyway, he was a warmonger and caused the deaths of many people in his megalomaniacal pursuit to conquer Europe.
The first part of your post somewhat contradicts the second.  He wanted to force a truce, not invade Russia, but was a warmonger who wanted to conquer Europe?

Austupaio said:
I think of Napoleon a lot like I do Hitler, great man who had some good ideas and the power to implement them, spoiled by letting the power go to his head and by ultimately going quite ****ing batty.
Renowned historian David Chandler on the comparison of Napoleon and Hitler:
"Since the 1940s it has been fashionable in some quarters to compare Napoleon with Hitler.  Nothing could be more degrading to the former and more flattering to the latter.  The comparison is odious.  On the whole Napoleon was inspired (in the early years at least) by a noble dream, wholly dissimilar from Hitler's vaunted but still born "New Order" Napoleon left great and lasting testimonies to his genius -- in codes of law and national identities which survive until this very day.  Adolf Hitler left nothing but destruction."

kurczak said:
Napoleon was unique. He makes for a great story, although admittedly Tolstoy already squeezed out basically all there is literature-wise and all you can do is retell War and Peace in different ways. Bummer.
I wouldn't agree that War and Peace was the definitive word in Napoleonic literature.  Les Misérables' section on Waterloo is akin to Tolstoy's Borodino, and gave great analysis afterwards (although not historically perfect).  Likewise, although he wasn't trying to compete with War and Peace, Anthony Burgess (famous for A Clockwork Orange) captured Napoleon terrifically in Napoleon Symphony.

Amontadillo said:
He was a warmonger in that he incited wars to procure France's dominance. This proves the other two points. Done.
That's it?  That's hardly evidence. 

Let's not forget the fact the Napoleonic Wars were an offshoot of not only the French Revolution, but the French Revolutionary Wars; the wheels were in motion before Napoleon arrived.

J. David Markham on Napoleon's role in history:
"Napoleon was trying to reform; to improve the lives of people.  He fought wars because, in many case, these wars were foisted upon him by various coalitions that didn't want improvements in the lives of people.  The Austrians, the Russians, and the Prussians were afraid that their own people would get the idea of freedom and equality and liberty under the Civil Code." 

And Vincent Cronin on Napoleon's wars:
"Such criticism relies on the flawed premise that Napoleon was responsible for the wars which bear his name, when in fact France was the victim of a series of coalitions which aimed to destroy the ideals of the Revolution."

I think people tend to hold Napoleon to an arbitrary standard.  Although absolutely an imperfect ruler (as all rulers in world history are), are we expected to believe Britain, Austria, or the positively feudal Russia were benevolent regimes?  Is there any particular reason that when other countries declared war on France, which was usually the case, they're given a blank check?  The blanket statement of "warmongering" is a common misconception.  I think Napoleon's primary sin was being ahead of his time, and France's was being a republic in the heart of Royalist Europe. 
 
Barry_bon_Loyale said:
Adorno said:
Very much unintended. He wanted to force Alexander I to a truce, not invade Russia.
Anyway, he was a warmonger and caused the deaths of many people in his megalomaniacal pursuit to conquer Europe.
The first part of your post somewhat contradicts the second.  He wanted to force a truce, not invade Russia, but was a warmonger who wanted to conquer Europe?
I think he's talking about the campaign being a failure, caused by entering too much inside the territory without food, not being provoked by a silly idea of conquering Russia
 
It's frequently omitted that he reinstated slavery after the revolution abolished it, because the poor Caribbean colonies were suffering an economic collapse which would in turn hurt the Metropol.
 
All that “liberty, equality, brotherhood” stuff may seem obvious now, but it sure as Hell wasn’t obvious if you were a typical lice-ridden serf in Central Europe. The first time those poor bastards had ever heard that they were even human was when the French arrived and told them so. So once you got below the landlord class in Italy or Germany, the arrival of the revolutionary French armies was the best thing that had ever happened. Hard to get your head around this if you’re an Anglo, but the sad truth is that the bad guys won at Trafalgar and Waterloo, a gang of hereditary vampires like Mister Burns in one of those sideways admiral hats.

From a completely unrelated war nerd article about the war of 1812 in the US/Canada.

https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/twelve-days-of-1812-day-one
 
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