one thing i hate...

[Brulis]

Well, after playing a couple of hour (maybe a lil too much) theres just one point i hate about your mods:

Too many castle and not enough cities... Theres a lot of player like me who enjoy making some trade to bring some money, but after trying to find which city will offer  me the best thing to sell, i realised that there is almost 10 castle (maybe more) for each city.

Im sorry guys, i realy like your mod but maybe if you can change this to bring more city and less castle, not just for the trade... Im not sure, but in 1200, im pretty sure, there was more city then castle (im talking about the real life here )

Its so sad to see has much castle.
(thats a suggestion, i wont stop playing your mod just because of this, but for the traders, its a big mistake)

 

[Aliksander]

The fact of the matter is, that while population numbers and the Urban life were on the rise at this time, there were still far more 'castles' and villages than what can rightly be called cities.  Remember that the castles in this mod don't just represent castles, they represent the castle AND the smaller 'town' surrounding it (most castles weren't stand alone structures with no other buildings around it).  In fact, many of the castles in-game will eventually become big cities in time, they just haven't reached that status as of 1200AD.

 

[FrisianDude]

(most castles weren't stand alone structures with no other buildings around it)

I thought they were. Just a tower maybe with a hill beneath and/or a wall around it.

 

[Count DeMonet]

(most castles weren't stand alone structures with no other buildings around it)

I thought they were. Just a tower maybe with a hill beneath and/or a wall around it.

The earliest castles were this type of Motte & Bailey, but even they tended to have a population around them to support the castle and take advantage of the protection a garrison and walls could provide.  By 1200 there were also plenty of larger castles as well, many of which contained whole towns within their walls. 

Castles were always built in locations of strategic importance.  The expense, in resources and manpower, to construct a castle was so great that no one built one without a population or choke-point to control.  Castles also required a significant amount of labor to support its inhabitants.  For these reasons there were almost always significant populations living around castles.

 

[FrisianDude]

That makes sense but is not what a a pretty nice book I'm reading says. It says (I forgot the title, I'll give it tomorrow) that lords often went into the crappier lands for the distinct purpose of finding a good location for a small castle; bogs, swamps, woods, lone hillocks in rocky territory etc. being preferred. It also mentions some Lords who had to escape their foes and did so by using their castle-location-scouting knowledge to their benefit. I'll try to give the title and some quotes tomorrow but I'm relatively sure that around 1200 there would have been

-Villages of various sizes (based on 'mansi' according to the same book),
-Small castles like what I meant (in bogs, on hills, just a tower maybe with pallisade and/or fake hill often only enough for the owner, his castellan, a handful of troops and a few servants)
-Larger fortresses (like the larger castles in M&B, with some room for fleeing peasants and stuff, more troops, often with a village pretty much incorporated ) and
-Fortified cities.

And some of those small castles would eventually become what I classified as 'larger fortresses' because peasants were attracted to what the Lord offered (in terms of cultivatable area, the previously mentioned mansi) and/or relative safety. It mentions that most of the current villages in Spain, for example, would have flourished at the foot of one of those smaller castles.


The title is THE MAKING OF EUROPE: Conquest, Colontization and Cultural Change 950-1350 by Robert Bartlett. I got it off my brother who may have bought it for his University-level History studies here in the Netherlands. But I'm not sure of that. It's interesting nonetheless.

 

[Tsewe]

(most castles weren't stand alone structures with no other buildings around it)

I thought they were. Just a tower maybe with a hill beneath and/or a wall around it.

The earliest castles were this type of Motte & Bailey, but even they tended to have a population around them to support the castle and take advantage of the protection a garrison and walls could provide.  By 1200 there were also plenty of larger castles as well, many of which contained whole towns within their walls. 

Castles were always built in locations of strategic importance.  The expense, in resources and manpower, to construct a castle was so great that no one built one without a population or choke-point to control.  Castles also required a significant amount of labor to support its inhabitants.  For these reasons there were almost always significant populations living around castles.

You're right, as Aliksander said, many had still not reach the status of official city, and that will be more obvious in eastern europe factions.
That's why we try to make new scenes ie castle scenes; to add some population or village just next to it.

@FrisianDude of course it wasnt as simple as Village - Castle -Town ; there were different "levels" of settlement sizes. Not all castles had village around it, not every Town was biiiiig, and nor every villages were pretty small as in native scenes...

 

[FrisianDude]

@FrisianDude of course it wasnt as simple as Village - Castle -Town ; there were different "levels" of settlement sizes. Not all castles had village around it, not every Town was biiiiig, and nor every villages were pretty small as in native scenes...

Well, no ****.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

We could add more towns, I don't think that's a problem. But we need to see if it would be really rewarding for all the players.

I can think of some towns that had to be let down into the castle rank because of "too many castles". We'll see.

 

[Brulis]

After reading what people said... maybe just put some castle with more option (like a city got) Its true that, some castle has born on a city, there was a real life in a castle, but in Mount & blade, castle doesnt give anithing for the player, the only thing you can do is attack, defend and put a garnison.

Its true that there was a small city in some castle. I dont know if it could be even harder to put more town with less castle or give more option to some castle. Go for the easiest thing and what you think we will enjoy 

(Well, that was the only negative point i found, now its more like  suggestion, its all up to you to found the best thing to do about this  )

 

[Brulis]

by the way, thanks a lot cèsar, its great to see a people like you that listen to the players and see what you can do to give us the best you can 

 

[Count DeMonet]

After reading what people said... maybe just put some castle with more option (like a city got) Its true that, some castle has born on a city, there was a real life in a castle, but in Mount & blade, castle doesnt give anithing for the player, the only thing you can do is attack, defend and put a garnison.

Its true that there was a small city in some castle. I dont know if it could be even harder to put more town with less castle or give more option to some castle. Go for the easiest thing and what you think we will enjoy 

(Well, that was the only negative point i found, now its more like  suggestion, its all up to you to found the best thing to do about this  )

It would be nice if some of the 'larger' castles could have shops and such in them.  A long time ago I had mentioned a 'stable' feature that could work like the chest but to keep extra horses, but it would be nice to be able to have thriving communities around a castle as well.  This is a job for the scene modelers I suppose.

The other thing that would be possible would be to allow the player to 'build' shops, guildhalls, taverns, etc.  I'm no modeler, but I guess the shops would be really pretty simple.  just add a couple stalls from the city tileset somewhere in the courtyard, then have a shopkeeper appear when the player pays to hire one.  The guild master could be the same way, just showing up in the courtyard once hired by the player.  A tavern would be a little more difficult, but most castles already have buildings that don't do anything, so 'activating' a doorway and attaching it to a tavern interior scene wouldn't be too complicated I imagine.

Currently there are only 2 options on the 'improvements' menu, so adding a few more wouldn't be too complex, right?

To recap:

New Build options:

Stables: Hire stable master to watch over your horses
Guild: Hire guild master who can oversee trade and give advice/missions
Armory: Provide arms dealer to buy and sell weapons. 
Blacksmith: Provide armor dealer to buy and sell armor
Tavern: Activate doorway to a tavern - useful for hiring mercenaries in a pinch

Setting some larger castles to have some or all of these structures prebuilt could really vary the feel of the world, and could impact strategic decisions too.  The best part is, there would be minimal to no modeling necessary, just adding the people, door triggers and shop booths that already exist.

 

[Tsewe]

隐藏

After reading what people said... maybe just put some castle with more option (like a city got) Its true that, some castle has born on a city, there was a real life in a castle, but in Mount & blade, castle doesnt give anithing for the player, the only thing you can do is attack, defend and put a garnison.

Its true that there was a small city in some castle. I dont know if it could be even harder to put more town with less castle or give more option to some castle. Go for the easiest thing and what you think we will enjoy 

(Well, that was the only negative point i found, now its more like  suggestion, its all up to you to found the best thing to do about this  )

It would be nice if some of the 'larger' castles could have shops and such in them.  A long time ago I had mentioned a 'stable' feature that could work like the chest but to keep extra horses, but it would be nice to be able to have thriving communities around a castle as well.  This is a job for the scene modelers I suppose.

The other thing that would be possible would be to allow the player to 'build' shops, guildhalls, taverns, etc.  I'm no modeler, but I guess the shops would be really pretty simple.  just add a couple stalls from the city tileset somewhere in the courtyard, then have a shopkeeper appear when the player pays to hire one.  The guild master could be the same way, just showing up in the courtyard once hired by the player.  A tavern would be a little more difficult, but most castles already have buildings that don't do anything, so 'activating' a doorway and attaching it to a tavern interior scene wouldn't be too complicated I imagine.

Currently there are only 2 options on the 'improvements' menu, so adding a few more wouldn't be too complex, right?

To recap:

New Build options:

Stables: Hire stable master to watch over your horses
Guild: Hire guild master who can oversee trade and give advice/missions
Armory: Provide arms dealer to buy and sell weapons. 
Blacksmith: Provide armor dealer to buy and sell armor
Tavern: Activate doorway to a tavern - useful for hiring mercenaries in a pinch

Setting some larger castles to have some or all of these structures prebuilt could really vary the feel of the world, and could impact strategic decisions too.  The best part is, there would be minimal to no modeling necessary, just adding the people, door triggers and shop booths that already exist.

What you all said is pretty interesting.
I think it would not be that complicated to add to a castle scene. I was thinking this though; the tavern, guild and armory / blacksmith could be located in a little village just outside the castle walls - little villages were not always inside castle walls - and the stables cuolb be inside the walls. Just details, but it would make the scene a bit more interesting to wander in.

Still, there would have to be at least one crucial difference between a city and a castle (the city is more lucrative and transforms raw materials into manufactured items, this would mean there would be no "Goods Shop" in castles for example, or the city would have a bigger garrison etc).

And of course, not every castle should have all those features. only the ones with a village beside it.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

After reading what people said... maybe just put some castle with more option (like a city got) Its true that, some castle has born on a city, there was a real life in a castle, but in Mount & blade, castle doesnt give anithing for the player, the only thing you can do is attack, defend and put a garnison.

Its true that there was a small city in some castle. I dont know if it could be even harder to put more town with less castle or give more option to some castle. Go for the easiest thing and what you think we will enjoy 

(Well, that was the only negative point i found, now its more like  suggestion, its all up to you to found the best thing to do about this  )

That's a good idea, yes... We'll discuss this with Cruger. I'd like to see castles more like small towns, because that's what they represent.

That's the point, being the map the whole of Europe: villages are towns with little political presence (which doesn't mean they could not be important), castles represent the seat of important lords, and towns are the biggest towns in every region.

Sometimes we get things like "Why is Metz a village and Nantes a castle, if Metz was so much important and larger than Nantes?" Well, it's because Nantes was the seat of the very important Duke of Lorraine, while Metz was the seat of only the bishop of Metz. Who was rich, but not so powerful.

 

[Aliksander]

Well, wouldn't the opening of such options mean that new scenes would have to be incorporated for every conceivable combination?  IOW: no improvements= basic scene, building guild = scene that included guildmaster, building guild and stable = scene with guildmaster and sable master,...essentially each castle would have over a dozen different scenes possible that all need to be included for this to work.  Quite a lot of effort.

 

[Tsewe]

Well, wouldn't the opening of such options mean that new scenes would have to be incorporated for every conceivable combination?  IOW: no improvements= basic scene, building guild = scene that included guildmaster, building guild and stable = scene with guildmaster and sable master,...essentially each castle would have over a dozen different scenes possible that all need to be included for this to work.  Quite a lot of effort.

we could for example only make one  castle scene variation
you edit castles from native and just add a little village next to it, with guildmaster, armory, stables etc. Those bigger castles would use those new scenes. Since we would not bother modify all the castle scene, except for some illustrious castles, we would only have to add the little village next to the native castle.
IT would take some time, but we could at least try it!

 

[Count DeMonet]

隐藏

After reading what people said... maybe just put some castle with more option (like a city got) Its true that, some castle has born on a city, there was a real life in a castle, but in Mount & blade, castle doesnt give anithing for the player, the only thing you can do is attack, defend and put a garnison.

Its true that there was a small city in some castle. I dont know if it could be even harder to put more town with less castle or give more option to some castle. Go for the easiest thing and what you think we will enjoy 

(Well, that was the only negative point i found, now its more like  suggestion, its all up to you to found the best thing to do about this  )

It would be nice if some of the 'larger' castles could have shops and such in them.  A long time ago I had mentioned a 'stable' feature that could work like the chest but to keep extra horses, but it would be nice to be able to have thriving communities around a castle as well.  This is a job for the scene modelers I suppose.

The other thing that would be possible would be to allow the player to 'build' shops, guildhalls, taverns, etc.  I'm no modeler, but I guess the shops would be really pretty simple.  just add a couple stalls from the city tileset somewhere in the courtyard, then have a shopkeeper appear when the player pays to hire one.  The guild master could be the same way, just showing up in the courtyard once hired by the player.  A tavern would be a little more difficult, but most castles already have buildings that don't do anything, so 'activating' a doorway and attaching it to a tavern interior scene wouldn't be too complicated I imagine.

Currently there are only 2 options on the 'improvements' menu, so adding a few more wouldn't be too complex, right?

To recap:

New Build options:

Stables: Hire stable master to watch over your horses
Guild: Hire guild master who can oversee trade and give advice/missions
Armory: Provide arms dealer to buy and sell weapons. 
Blacksmith: Provide armor dealer to buy and sell armor
Tavern: Activate doorway to a tavern - useful for hiring mercenaries in a pinch

Setting some larger castles to have some or all of these structures prebuilt could really vary the feel of the world, and could impact strategic decisions too.  The best part is, there would be minimal to no modeling necessary, just adding the people, door triggers and shop booths that already exist.

What you all said is pretty interesting.
I think it would not be that complicated to add to a castle scene. I was thinking this though; the tavern, guild and armory / blacksmith could be located in a little village just outside the castle walls - little villages were not always inside castle walls - and the stables could be inside the walls. Just details, but it would make the scene a bit more interesting to wander in.

It would be nice, but a lot more work for modeling, so that is why I suggested adding them within the existing castles.  As modelers make new castle scenes, they could add things outside the walls as well if they wanted, but adding exterior buildings (and open gates since most of the existing castle scenes have the gates closed) would be a lot more work.

Still, there would have to be at least one crucial difference between a city and a castle (the city is more lucrative and transforms raw materials into manufactured items, this would mean there would be no "Goods Shop" in castles for example, or the city would have a bigger garrison etc).

And of course, not every castle should have all those features. only the ones with a village beside it.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking too:  City - large population, more tax revenue, militia, production shops  Castle - no manufacturing options, no goods or horse merchants (instead - stables to house horses you already have)  Only weapons and armor shops, a tavern and a guild master to give quests/info (no productive enterprise).  As I said, different castles could have different features depending on the size/importance of the town in 1200, so a major castle like York could be totally built up at the start, while some other castles could have few/no upgrades unless the player captures them and builds them up himself.

This could also be useful for balancing some of the weaker factions that don't have any (or few) cities, like Wales, Mann or Navarre too.  Especially for Welsh vassals, they currently don't have anywhere nearby to buy/sell armor or weapons since the English control all the nearby cities.  putting an armory and blacksmith in some of their castles could really help, and would be realistic (they did actually have merchants to trade with)  It also would have no real impact on the game unless the player was a member of the faction.

Another possibility is the introduction of quests related to developing a castle for another lord.  Something like 'Lord X wants to establish an Armory in his castle Y - Can you go to City Z, renowned for its fine metalwork and persuade a blacksmith to set up a new forge in castle Y?'  Then he gives you money to pay the Smith but you can use persuasion to talk the amount down and pocket the difference.  Some time after completing this quest, there could then be an armor dealer in castle Y.
That was just off the top of my head, so I'm sure there are plenty of other possibilities as well.

 

[Count DeMonet]

Well, wouldn't the opening of such options mean that new scenes would have to be incorporated for every conceivable combination?  IOW: no improvements= basic scene, building guild = scene that included guildmaster, building guild and stable = scene with guildmaster and sable master,...essentially each castle would have over a dozen different scenes possible that all need to be included for this to work.  Quite a lot of effort.

Ahh, but I have already considered that, and my genius combined with my great love for our exceptional modelers has inspired me to come up with the following plan to prevent them from having to do any more than a minor prop addition to the existing castle scenes:

All that would be needed is to add the stalls that the merchants use.  If there was no improvement, the stall would just be a table with some equipment on it, hardly out of place in a castle courtyard.  build the 'improvement' and all that needs to be added is the person to stand by the stall, making it a 'shop'.  This would only require one version of the scene, regardless of how many improvements were purchased.  There are already a lot of changing people in scenes (lords, ladies, knights, soldiers in your garrison manning the walls, advisers when you become king), so I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to add a shopkeeper. 

The tavern would only require adding a doorway trigger on an already modeled but unused door (nearly all castles have them) and use an existing scene or create at most 3 new 'castle tavern interior' scenes (1 each for the wooden/stone/adobe castle types). 

The stable master could be similar to the shopkeeper, but stand by the shed/doorway that looks most like a stable(many castles already have them).  For the scenes that don't already have a place for him to stand next to, he could simply be placed in the courtyard, with the implication that he is taking the horses to a nearby paddock. 

 

[Tsewe]

It would be nice, but a lot more work for modeling, so that is why I suggested adding them within the existing castles.  As modelers make new castle scenes, they could add things outside the walls as well if they wanted, but adding exterior buildings (and open gates since most of the existing castle scenes have the gates closed) would be a lot more work.

Actually i dont think it would be that much, because the edited scene for that is the castle_exterior, so wether you add an armory inside the walls or outside, there is no difference. But you would have of course to change the door to an open one of ourse, which takes a few minutes to do. If we want to save some work on that, the best would be to keep the native castles and just add something inside or outside it (which is not different in terms of time consuming, but just accuracy of details).

Another possibility is the introduction of quests related to developing a castle for another lord.  Something like 'Lord X wants to establish an Armory in his castle Y - Can you go to City Z, renowned for its fine metalwork and persuade a blacksmith to set up a new forge in castle Y?'  Then he gives you money to pay the Smith but you can use persuasion to talk the amount down and pocket the difference.  Some time after completing this quest, there could then be an armor dealer in castle Y.
That was just off the top of my head, so I'm sure there are plenty of other possibilities as well.

Now that would be a lot of work for a scener, since he would have to do many different scenes; 1 with the castle and the armory, 1 with the castle and the guildmaster, 1 with both, one with the weaponry, 1 with weaponry and armory, 1 with the 3 of them etc etc
but the idea is surely cool.
It's like if you were able to see, when you own a village, to see the upgrades you pay for when you walk into your village; when you build a manor, you can see one, when you build a watch tower too... but that would take, if we count that there is 5 possible buidlings, at least 25 scenes for just 1 village scene... since you would have to do 25 scenes for every village scene!

But as you say in your last post , it can be done using the simplest and easiest way, though we would still have a lot of scenes just for 1 castle.

 

[Count DeMonet]

I think you misunderstood the last part of my post.  there would be no need to change the scene in any event.  The last paragraph was just an idea for quests through which a player could help other lords improve their castles.  just like with the player's own castles, there would be no need for multiple scenes, just add people to the existing scenes.  If you want to have the gate open and some buildings outside, then there is 1 scene/castle that needs to be changed. 

Ideally, most castles would only need the addition of two stalls for weapons and armor, which already exist in every city.  The rest is already there. (look around most castles.  There are already unused buildings and doorways in most of them) 
Modelers could start adding exterior buildings for some of them if they wanted to, and it would look nice, but there are only a few that would absolutely need changes. 


To be as clear as I possibly can:  There are only 2 things that would need to be changed in most existing scenes.  armor shop stall and weapon shop stall All other 'construction' would make use of existing scene features.  There are some wooden castles that might need a bit more modification, but there would still only be 1 scene per castle.  The only other changes would be adding people to the scene. 

This is for any existing ny scenes being made from scratch could be done however the modeler wanted.