Archonsod 说:
Well, the advertisement post is up in the Town Square, and has two mods in there so far. We'll soon see that I'm right
I'm also looking to either duplicate, link or otherwise slap it into the AG too, so we can corrupt players from the start
Every bit helps, but don't hold your breath.
Archonsod 说:
bryce777 说:
Not if they don't see them at all, and right now they can't see them off the main page. There is no HERE ARE THE MODS, NEWBIE, AND BY THE WAY MODS ARE GAME ENHANCEMENTS OR EXPANSIONS AND YOU REALLY PROBABLY WANT TO GET SOME. Even most of the people who play mods don't actually register for any forums.
bryce777 说:
Without a fan bas most people will give mods NO chance, as well. I know if I saw a forum with 5-6 topics all by the same guy I would move on unless something about the setting just completely grabbed my attention in 5 seconds. So, it actually is pretty important that they are in the forum vets' minds as well.
Both of those are problems with the existing board no matter where it is placed, which is what I've been trying to tell you. Click on the mod section, regardless of where it is or what it is called and you just see a list of boards and threads. A newbie still doesn't know what a mod is, and even assuming they did there's nothing there which indicates whether x mod is something they might be interested in.
The problem is CAUSED in the first place because the forum arrangement is crapulent. The problem being that there are not en0ough posts, which was the whole point of my thread. Virtually every forum 'vet' agrees with me, especially the ones who focus on the modding forums, whereas you are all over the forums, and disagree.
The point is right now you don't see a list of bopards and threads at all. You see nothing unless you hunt for it.
Marketing is a completely different issue. If a modder wants to call his mod something moronic like Bone Mod or something else in the XXX MOD theme and then has a very poor description of the mod and doesn't even say what version it's for and has a post riddled with grammar errors then of course it will be hard for most people to take it seriously. However, good mods with people who present it decently will flourish in the right environment. You know what? Some mods don't deserve a big following, or at least not as big as some of the better mods that have a ton of work put into them like TLD or Lombard Leagues. When I see a thread and can't even get a coherent idea of what the mod's about in 15 seconds I am not going to be downloading it, but that is for the best probably.
The good mods won't need that sort of marketing to get played because word will get around, but even the best mods need encouragement. If it were entirely about marketing then I would not even think of the forums and would say "Make a trailer with a good voiceover guy. Put it on youtube. Make a dramatic flash website with lots of high quality artwork. Go to new sites and tell them about your mod." but that's not all of what the forums are for. They are also for feedback and encouragement. When those dry up it becomes difficult or even impossible to keep modding. That's why Highlander quit mbx, and that is probably why Hellequin has gone from one of the most active modders to having been MIA for several months now, with the mod seemingly abandoned, even though it had some great potential.
Another thing though is that we have too many damn mods with their own forums, many of which are abandoned. As time goes by there are just going to be more and more mods that want their own forums so we should have some tighter requirements. 1) no more than one version behind M&B and 2) at least 1000 posts in main thread or 5k downloads or something like that. It's important to make it easy for a newb who wanders by to see what the most popular mods are and try them out if they appeal.
Archonsod 说:
Compare that to the advertising post in the Town Square. The first post explains the basics of installing and getting a mod up and running, so the clueless can see straight away what they're supposed to do.
The mod posts follow, with some eyecatching screenshots, links to the mod info and a brief description of the mod. Odds are someone is just going to scroll that page, notice some cool or otherwise interesting screenshot and stop to read that post. He then has a link to download the mod should he wish, plus a link to the mod board.
Taking it further, as the number of mods increases we can rejig that thread and add some quick links to the first post. Looking for a historical mod? Click here and go to that section, Prefer fantasy? There you go. As mods continue to develop and incorporate new features and screenshots they can be easily added into the post, so newcomers can see exactly what they're getting. It also assists those mods hosted at MBX, since they get to use pretty screenshots and the like to entice those who wouldn't normally bother going to the MBX site.
As I said I'd be interested in taking it further too. 'Mod of the Month' would be an idea, timed to co-incide with a mod release. This gives the modder the chance to sing the praises of whatever changes they've made in the mod, or the mod itself, plus (as maw points out) generate some buzz surrounding their mod. Another thing I'd like to do is some kind of 'interview' thread, nothing fancy, just perhaps five questions for a modder to answer. Rather than concentrating on a mod, this would concentrate on modding itself and ideally be aimed at encouraging more people to get into the whole modding thing. In general, just giving the mod community the huge kick up the arse it seems to need at the moment
Good ideas. I especially like 'mod of the month', but fixing the forums is the most important thing, and not just from marketing. Without the traffic to the boards (regardless of whether people play) most mods are going to die, plain and simple. I am not saying this for myself because GD and I would mod regardless, but I have gone it alone as a modder when I was working on LOM, and it can be quite frustrating to not have any help to do even the most simple things.
Archonsod 说:
Well that just makes it more important to put them out there somewhere visible and not hidden like they are now. If the forum vets don't think of them, others won't even realize they exist.
If the vets aren't thinking about them then I'd put it down to simply lack of interest in the mod as it stands. As Maw has pointed out, half of the popularity of a mod is down to talk from fellow players (Another reason I wanted to run player reviews of mods, people tend to be less cynical when it's a fellow player singing the praises of a mod rather than the modder themselves). Bringing a kind of fan review into the process would help generate discussion over those mods covered, which will have a kickback effect on the mod boards themselves (not to mention it could be helpful for modders looking to improve their mod, since you're getting a first hand account of how it actually plays out to the audience rather than the scriptwriter).
It's not so much a lack of fanbase I'm looking to counter here, but learned apathy. Most vets know that a mod release tends to occur only after M&B is updated, thus there's no point checking the mod boards once the mod has caught up to M&B. If we can inspire some discussion through something like the reviews, then hopefully you'll start to see enough discussion and activity on the boards themselves that people will need to rethink this attitude, even if it is just to argue with that dumbass who says player death is too hardcore
The reviews are a good idea, too, but they don't address the issue of lack of visibility stifling the released mods. No feedback, no mods. It's as simple as that. It's also discussing that gets people to want to mod. I know that is a lot of why I did it, though the main reason is that it is a dry run for making my own full game.
You say it's due to apathy, but I am everyone else say it's due to the board arrangement. Out of sight, out of mind - it;s as simple as that. Sure, some are being neglected due to having been abandoned or whatever like I said, but that is perfectly normal - if they have a subboard it should eventually be closed if it's abandoned, however.
Archonsod 说:
I'm trying to do something about it right now but getting shut down by the admins
As I've pointed out, none of the points you brought up would be answered by moving the board. You'd attract an extra few people who happen to randomly click a board and see what this CG is all about, but you won't resolve or address the underlying problem. You'd end up with the community heading the way it was prior to the board re-organisation, half of whom stuck to the M&B Discussion boards, and the other half who stuck to the mod boards.
You say that again and again, but you provide no support for it. I can say "No it's not" just as easily all day long, but it does not make it so.
The specific point that would be answered is that if the boards are more visible, more people will visit! It's as simple as that. You don't need to be a marketing whiz to know that. I am not, but even I know that is the most basic marketing. Shall we put the add banners at the top of the page or behind a link that says "Please visit our sponsors"? I think we know the answer to that question....
The boards being visited is a goal unto intself, but also will result in more downloads. Let me break it down formally:
Argument 1:
1. The more visible the released mods section is, the more people will visit it.
2. The more people who visit, the more will post.
3. The more people who post, the more people will check it out and play.
Conclusion - making the forums more visible will make more people play
Argument 2:
1. Higher visibility means more people post about mods.
2. The more people post, the more encouraged the modders will be.
3. Modders who are encouraged will work harder on their mods.
Conclusion - making the forums more visible will make the modders work harder on their projects.
Now, the premises are all fairly solid and the conclusions are very obvious. So, to make it simple what premises do you not agree with, if any? If you don't disagree with any of them, then I am right.
It seems you might dispute that visibility = more posting. It is very easy to prove however. First, let's eliminate taleworlds completely. Then how much posting is there? None! We could then experiment and prove it's actually proportional to the visibility by putting it in further and further more ludicrous places and watching the traffic go down and down. that is in fact the game we have already started to play with the forums, and the results are quite obvious, except seemingly to the people in charge.
Archonsod 说:
Honestly it is a ton of work to effectively advertise, and it is kind of silly to have to do so to the installed M&B fanbase.
Yup, but I'm the one taking the majority of that work on
I can't do much outside the installed fanbase, but I can make sure that the entire fanbase knows about your mod, and that involves more than simply showing them where the thread/board is. You need to give them an incentive to try your mod, a reason to download it in the first place, and that's what we're going to aim for.
When BE is closer to release I am going to register a domain name and we will create a website with a flash trailer, gameplay videos, etc. However, that has an outside target - basically for people who have not even heard of M&B, so that we can (I hope) get people to come check out M&B just to play out mod.
We're all for that, but as you said, not everyone has the luxury. You'd still be welcome to have advertising here too, might as well grab everyone you can
In fact, a link to the mods section and maybe some copy talking about all the really cool mods out there would help - not just help the mods, but help sell the game. It will help newbs learn about mods, but these days modding is pretty big and is a selling point in its own right.
Yup, and so far the only thing standing in the way is the reluctance of the community. I expect now that two modders have taken the first steps more will follow, and hopefully I can pull the players themselves into the fold too. It's up to you guys at the end of the day, if you want a vibrant modding scene then you need to get off your arse and participate rather than sit back and wait for someone else to do it.
Yes and no. The forums and their rrangement do have an effect. Like I said the community is about more than getting people to download mods. Once BE is mostly complete then marketing will commence in full effect, but if people have to click down three levels to see the forums then it is going to seriously hamper traffic. I expect for big mod like BE lots of people will find out about it anyhow, but for some of the smaller mods and especially the one man bands, it's the kiss of death.
