On Rebellions

[archaicwarrior]

Maybe naming the faction after the name of the leader and the town. "Jora's Poros Rebels".

"Commonwealth of Rebel Peasantry, Poros Chapter"

 

[Littlepage]

So, I have been playing the 1.5.6 beta and I've noticed a few things. First, at most 10% of rebellions succeed to create new clans. Second the Khuzaits do not experience rebellions because of "Grazing Rights", which is a government policy they have. They have steadily grown to become the world's dominant power, they aren't unstoppable, but they haven't been experiencing any major setbacks, because they don't experience rebellions. Given enough time they will conquer the entire world, but it will take several decades. The other rising power in my Game, Battania has experienced 3/4ths of all rebellions.Third, because most rebellions fail, there end up being a bunch of clans that don't do anything but laze around in castles and towns far away from their original town. 2/3rds of all clans formed from rebellions in my game have no army and do absolutely nothing. Finally, the naming system is tedious. In my game there are 5 clans called Sargot's rebels, none of which have any armies even close to Sargot.

I suggest a few changes. It's okay that most rebellions fail, that's fine and to be expected, but the Khuzaits do not experience rebellion because of the government policy they get and thus have an unfair advantage. The policy is too strong and it has no downside, because the militia will always be loyal. All policies should have downsides. Maybe having a large militia should decrease the loyalty of town, like -0.5 loyalty per every 100 militia or something. Next, when a rebellion loses its town, the rebel clan should resort to banditry, and the AI should have an increased chance to execute them. That way all these useless clans will do something and if they keep failing they will eventually be killed off. Lastly the naming system (I know it's WIP) needs to be changed; If a rebel clan succeeds in becoming a real noble clan, then it should get a real family name, selected at random from a list of family names for each culture, but it should also check to make sure that no living clan has the same name. If a clan fails to become a real clan and it loses its original town (there is no coming back from that) its named should be changed to a gang name selected from a random list for each culture, and when this clan is destroyed it should be expunged from the encylopedia.

 

[**Iphicrates**]

I think that rebel leaders should be executed by IA lords if getting captured. Also, player should be expected to execute them too, without consequences (maybe even a quest could be made to capture and behead certain rebel lord). After all, they rebelled against their king. Even in real history, socially acceptable outcome in such situation was a death sentence. This would solve two problems:
1. Rebel parties won't be roaming around after their city fell.
2. At the moment executions are pretty much useless feature, so this would actually let the player use it.

 

[Nalgasucia507]

So, I have been playing the 1.5.6 beta and I've noticed a few things. First, at most 10% of rebellions succeed to create new clans. Second the Khuzaits do not experience rebellions because of "Grazing Rights", which is a government policy they have. They have steadily grown to become the world's dominant power, they aren't unstoppable, but they haven't been experiencing any major setbacks, because they don't experience rebellions. Given enough time they will conquer the entire world, but it will take several decades. The other rising power in my Game, Battania has experienced 3/4ths of all rebellions.Third, because most rebellions fail, there end up being a bunch of clans that don't do anything but laze around in castles and towns far away from their original town. 2/3rds of all clans formed from rebellions in my game have no army and do absolutely nothing. Finally, the naming system is tedious. In my game there are 5 clans called Sargot's rebels, none of which have any armies even close to Sargot.

I suggest a few changes. It's okay that most rebellions fail, that's fine and to be expected, but the Khuzaits do not experience rebellion because of the government policy they get and thus have an unfair advantage. The policy is too strong and it has no downside, because the militia will always be loyal. All policies should have downsides. Maybe having a large militia should decrease the loyalty of town, like -0.5 loyalty per every 100 militia or something. Next, when a rebellion loses its town, the rebel clan should resort to banditry, and the AI should have an increased chance to execute them. That way all these useless clans will do something and if they keep failing they will eventually be killed off. Lastly the naming system (I know it's WIP) needs to be changed; If a rebel clan succeeds in becoming a real noble clan, then it should get a real family name, selected at random from a list of family names for each culture, but it should also check to make sure that no living clan has the same name. If a clan fails to become a real clan and it loses its original town (there is no coming back from that) its named should be changed to a gang name selected from a random list for each culture, and when this clan is destroyed it should be expunged from the encylopedia.

+1

 

[Dabos37]

So, I have been playing the 1.5.6 beta and I've noticed a few things. First, at most 10% of rebellions succeed to create new clans. Second the Khuzaits do not experience rebellions because of "Grazing Rights", which is a government policy they have. They have steadily grown to become the world's dominant power, they aren't unstoppable, but they haven't been experiencing any major setbacks, because they don't experience rebellions. Given enough time they will conquer the entire world, but it will take several decades. The other rising power in my Game, Battania has experienced 3/4ths of all rebellions.Third, because most rebellions fail, there end up being a bunch of clans that don't do anything but laze around in castles and towns far away from their original town. 2/3rds of all clans formed from rebellions in my game have no army and do absolutely nothing. Finally, the naming system is tedious. In my game there are 5 clans called Sargot's rebels, none of which have any armies even close to Sargot.

I suggest a few changes. It's okay that most rebellions fail, that's fine and to be expected, but the Khuzaits do not experience rebellion because of the government policy they get and thus have an unfair advantage. The policy is too strong and it has no downside, because the militia will always be loyal. All policies should have downsides. Maybe having a large militia should decrease the loyalty of town, like -0.5 loyalty per every 100 militia or something. Next, when a rebellion loses its town, the rebel clan should resort to banditry, and the AI should have an increased chance to execute them. That way all these useless clans will do something and if they keep failing they will eventually be killed off. Lastly the naming system (I know it's WIP) needs to be changed; If a rebel clan succeeds in becoming a real noble clan, then it should get a real family name, selected at random from a list of family names for each culture, but it should also check to make sure that no living clan has the same name. If a clan fails to become a real clan and it loses its original town (there is no coming back from that) its named should be changed to a gang name selected from a random list for each culture, and when this clan is destroyed it should be expunged from the encylopedia.

Oh, you are pretty damn right about Grazing Rights. Going to comment that in the Snowballing thread.

 

[Worldsprayer]

Greetings Warriors of Calradia.

In this post, we explain our new feature and provide a follow-up to our previous post about Loyalty and Security.
Rebellions are instantaneous map events that occur after a build-up of resentment to the current owner of the settlement.
The purpose is to punish poor management and challenge over-expansive conquest and simulate the realities of governing settlements.

The rebellion based on the following assumptions.

• Garrisons are always loyal to the settlement owner.
• The militia on the other hand can defect as they represent the will of the people. The militia is the main force of the rebellion

Conditions
Currently, the rebellions only occur in towns and checks for the following conditions:

• Loyalty of the town is very low.
• Strength of the militia is a lot higher than the strength of the garrison.

As the loyalty of the town drops below a threshold, the populace gets angry and starts to take up arms. When this happens the number of militia in the town starts to increase rapidly and as they see the owner as their tyrant they will not join to defend against sieges. (Thus, a player cannot exploit this to create a very large number of militias)
If the conditions are met, a rebellion is started with some chance. This has quite a lot of effects which we explain below.

Effects
When conditions hold and a rebellion starts few things happen in the town.

• The owner of the settlement loses all control of the settlement.
• The garrison is destroyed. Some of them end up in prisons and others are killed.
• A portion of the militia is lost in the uprising and the rest is converted to the garrison.
• A new rebel clan is created. This clan has newly generated members representing charismatic or influential people who lead the rebellion.
• The new clan is immediately at war with the original settlement owner's faction.
• The loyalty of the city will get a temporary boost.

Rebel Clan
The rebel clan is the new clan formed by the prominent figures of the rebellion. While they take over the settlement's control, they have not established their legitimacy at this point.
A rebel clan is very similar to a normal kingdom clan with few key differences.

• They cannot join factions.
• They cannot marry other clans.
• If they lose their original settlement, they cease to spawn and eventually destroyed.
• If they manage to hold onto their settlement for some time, they will become a legitimate clan and can join, leave, marry, and perform other actions that a normal clan can do.

When rebel clans are created they start with a very low relationship with the faction they rebelled against and a very high relationship with their settlement culture and will probably defect to their original faction when they become normal clans after some time. Of course, it is not hardcoded and these clans (as any other) can be persuaded to join other factions. If the clan has rebelled against its own culture's faction then they will hate their own culture's faction(s)

Countering Rebellions
Rebellions is a future that would make large empires be wary of their over-expansive policies. Expanding very fast without keeping necessary garrisons until the land is healed can lead to rapid rebellions when conquering foreign lands. However, there are ways to counter rebellions. A town can be kept in check in many ways which we list a few below.

• Appointing a culturally appropriate governor to reduce cultural penalties.
• Resolving issues that have negative loyalty effects.
• Improving permanent projects that increase loyalty gain.
• Doing daily projects which would give loyalty boosts.
• Defending villages and allowing them to heal would curb loyalty penalties from starvation.
• Going after bandits and hideouts to increase security and loyalty.
• Passing faction-wide policies that improve loyalty.

We believe rebellions introduce a new layer of depth to the simulation and make many other systems in the game matter more as policies, town projects gain new importance and also balance the steam-rolling factions quite a bit. As always we are awaiting your feedback, to further improve and balance rebellions.
Keep your subjects or happy or expect a rebellion soon!

This is definitely making the map feel more dynamic...the issue though is that now the map is beginning to look rather checkered. Caladog has in very early game 2 cities in deep Sarleon territory, and western empire and northern empire have traded cities as well, again at a very early stage, so I'm thinking the rebel system needs to have something to counter the issues of early game.

 

[Apocal]

So, I have been playing the 1.5.6 beta and I've noticed a few things. First, at most 10% of rebellions succeed to create new clans. Second the Khuzaits do not experience rebellions because of "Grazing Rights", which is a government policy they have. They have steadily grown to become the world's dominant power, they aren't unstoppable, but they haven't been experiencing any major setbacks, because they don't experience rebellions. Given enough time they will conquer the entire world, but it will take several decades. The other rising power in my Game, Battania has experienced 3/4ths of all rebellions.

Are you sure this wasn't just your one playthrough in particular? I saw the opposite in one test -- Khuzaits the dominant power, but having had a huge number of rebellions, almost as many as every other faction put together -- and in the other two tests, rebellions were spread more or less equally.

 

[Littlepage]

Are you sure this wasn't just your one playthrough in particular? I saw the opposite in one test -- Khuzaits the dominant power, but having had a huge number of rebellions, almost as many as every other faction put together -- and in the other two tests, rebellions were spread more or less equally.

Do the Khuzaits have the grazing rights policy in your playthough? Or did they get rid of it?

 

[Apocal]

Do the Khuzaits have the grazing rights policy in your playthough? Or did they get rid of it?

They have it.

edit: In fact, they have it in all three test runs.

 

[Tacostrom]

Fantastic exposition about the feature. Would love to see rebellions be developed further when diplomacy + relationships systems are up to par. I would love the opportunity to provide money/troops or even fight for a rebellious clan.

 

[lunelune2413]

Are you sure this wasn't just your one playthrough in particular? I saw the opposite in one test -- Khuzaits the dominant power, but having had a huge number of rebellions, almost as many as every other faction put together -- and in the other two tests, rebellions were spread more or less equally.

In my own test the Khuzaits don't have any major issues with rebellions. A few years in and they've taken 3 major cities without any big loyalty issues

Meanwhile Battania lost Sargot to rebels. Twice. And after taking it back the second time the Vlandians took it back.

 

[Apocal]

@SadShogun do you want a few savegames to examine the impact of rebellions? Right now we can see exactly how many have happened and how many have succedded by looking at the active wars of a faction, but I imagine that is going to be patched out soonish.

In my own test the Khuzaits don't have any major issues with rebellions. A few years in and they've taken 3 major cities without any big loyalty issues

Meanwhile Battania lost Sargot to rebels. Twice. And after taking it back the second time the Vlandians took it back.

Those towns might have same culture governors, thanks to inter-faction marriages. That's one thing I'm seeing in a current (fresh) playthrough. It applies to all factions to some extent, but the Battanians and Vlandians are constantly at war with one another, so they don't have any marriages (the game checks to make sure there are no factions between warring marriages) and Sargot's villages are really easy for the Battanians to raid, which is an even bigger malus than the wrong culture one.

In my previous playthrough, carried over from 1.5.5, the main thing driving rebellions was a kingdom with low influence among its clans (so fewer armies) raiding the living hell out of the larger or distracted opponent. Those raided villages really, really hurt loyalty when there are four of them per town, so Battania basically had All the Rebellions, at all times. Even with fully upgraded loyalty improvements, same culture ownership and governor, etc.

 

[SadShogun]

@SadShogun do you want a few savegames to examine the impact of rebellions? Right now we can see exactly how many have happened and how many have succedded by looking at the active wars of a faction, but I imagine that is going to be patched out soonish.



Those towns might have same culture governors, thanks to inter-faction marriages. That's one thing I'm seeing in a current (fresh) playthrough. It applies to all factions to some extent, but the Battanians and Vlandians are constantly at war with one another, so they don't have any marriages (the game checks to make sure there are no factions between warring marriages) and Sargot's villages are really easy for the Battanians to raid, which is an even bigger malus than the wrong culture one.

In my previous playthrough, carried over from 1.5.5, the main thing driving rebellions was a kingdom with low influence among its clans (so fewer armies) raiding the living hell out of the larger or distracted opponent. Those raided villages really, really hurt loyalty when there are four of them per town, so Battania basically had All the Rebellions, at all times. Even with fully upgraded loyalty improvements, same culture ownership and governor, etc.

We are tried to thoroughly test the impact and occurrence of the rebellions. In our tests, it was more spread out than concentrated on certain towns.

Below is an example test result from very early implementations of the rebellion:

Spoiler

We had tens of these images after for tweaking the rebellions and we worked hard so that some cities do not get rebellion over and over. However, a lot has been changed since then regarding to loyalty and security.

Based on your feedback, Sargot seems to get a lot of attention in terms of rebellion(though hard to tell with the sample size of the community). We will look into it.

Another issue pointed out here is the "Grazing Rights" and Khuzait immunity to rebellions.
This policy had no negative effects as the community mentioned so we fixed it and it will be in a future patch.

Next, I will look into why Battanian towns are more likely to rebel(and whether if it is the case) and hopefully address some of the issues regarding these by logging which factions gets the rebellions most. Previously we logged the cities and tried to optimize it such that it occurs in different cities.

Thank you for taking the time to analyze our features, it really helps to focus on parts where the problem is hard to detect in automated tests (and hard to replicate in manual ones.)
And as always, thank you for your feedback!

 

[lunelune2413]

@SadShogun do you want a few savegames to examine the impact of rebellions? Right now we can see exactly how many have happened and how many have succedded by looking at the active wars of a faction, but I imagine that is going to be patched out soonish.



Those towns might have same culture governors, thanks to inter-faction marriages. That's one thing I'm seeing in a current (fresh) playthrough. It applies to all factions to some extent, but the Battanians and Vlandians are constantly at war with one another, so they don't have any marriages (the game checks to make sure there are no factions between warring marriages) and Sargot's villages are really easy for the Battanians to raid, which is an even bigger malus than the wrong culture one.

In my previous playthrough, carried over from 1.5.5, the main thing driving rebellions was a kingdom with low influence among its clans (so fewer armies) raiding the living hell out of the larger or distracted opponent. Those raided villages really, really hurt loyalty when there are four of them per town, so Battania basically had All the Rebellions, at all times. Even with fully upgraded loyalty improvements, same culture ownership and governor, etc.

Might be due to the constant warfare, yeah. Looted villagers give a -1 in loyalty and if a newly captured settlements towns are constantly burned, it's understandable a rebellion would occour.

Finally after a few years the Vlandian and Batannians have signed a peace agreement. Both Charas and Sargot are in Batannian hands, but only Charas is loyal (for now) and Sargot has rebelled once again.

Based on your feedback, Sargot seems to get a lot of attention in terms of rebellion(though hard to tell with the sample size of the community). We will look into it.

Another issue pointed out here is the "Grazing Rights" and Khuzait immunity to rebellions.
This policy had no negative effects as the community mentioned so we fixed it and it will be in a future patch.

Next, I will look into why Battanian towns are more likely to rebel(and whether if it is the case) and hopefully address some of the issues regarding these by logging which factions gets the rebellions most. Previously we logged the cities and tried to optimize it such that it occurs in different cities.

Thank you for taking the time to analyze our features, it really helps to focus on parts where the problem is hard to detect in automated tests (and hard to replicate in manual ones.)
And as always, thank you for your feedback!

Could it be due to a lack of food? Every time I've been to Sargot and it's been in Battanian hands it always had the "Starving" modifier. It's almost like the Batannians don't have good way to supply food to supply their newly aquired cities if they don't already got a source (Like Charas being a trade hub).

And thank you for improving the game we all love!

 

[Apocal]

Might be due to the constant warfare, yeah. Looted villagers give a -1 in loyalty and if a newly captured settlements towns are constantly burned, it's understandable a rebellion would occour.

Finally after a few years the Vlandian and Batannians have signed a peace agreement. Both Charas and Sargot are in Batannian hands, but only Charas is loyal (for now) and Sargot has rebelled once again.

Yeah, Starving + Looted Villages is a helluva combination taken together and Sargot's villages get burned a lot in any war between Vlandia and Battania. Worse is that Starving can persist for awhile at low prosperity, if the surrounding towns have high prosperity; caravans will preferentially sell food to high prosperity towns thanks to the inflation of prices.

 

[Lornloth00]

Are you sure this wasn't just your one playthrough in particular? I saw the opposite in one test -- Khuzaits the dominant power, but having had a huge number of rebellions, almost as many as every other faction put together -- and in the other two tests, rebellions were spread more or less equally.

Very interesting. In my first 1.5.6. game the Khuzaits are snowballing heavily and keeping lots of territory with mid loyalty and they put down rebellions easily. The Battanians have taken all of the Vlandian towns but with many rebellions while the Khuzaits have very few rebellions.

Hats off to Taleworlds this is a great patch. Is there a way to get rebels to join the player faction? After creating my kingdom I don't see any options to get rebels to join kingdom but other kingdoms have rebels as lords and have married rebels into their faction. Rather than to just have rebels stay in castles some of them should just turn bandit and rebels from the same town could help each other or fight each other. I tend to treat rebels as bandits after they are defeated in a seige but once I defeat them they hide in castles I figure they would be harassing the oppressor faction and roaming the map more.

 

[lunelune2413]

I started this observer game and while it's still early, but here it's rather weird...I have 1 game where the Khuzaits started steamrolling WITHOUT rebellions, but this game they have had 2-3 rebellions in 2 tows each and somehow still are steamrolling? Also in the No rebellions tab you can just look at how many times Sargot has rebelled within the same time frame.
Sorry for the Imgur posts. Taleworlds doesn't allow me to upload actual pictures.

Spoiler: Lots of rebels.

Spoiler: No rebellions

I think that you guys need to look into the Khuzaits find out why they are so strong. Their siege is supposed to be awful (Which I have seen that they are usually are), while shining in open field battles. Yet somehow they still conquer so much in so little time.

Very interesting. In my first 1.5.6. game the Khuzaits are snowballing heavily and keeping lots of territory with mid loyalty and they put down rebellions easily. The Battanians have taken all of the Vlandian towns but with many rebellions while the Khuzaits have very few rebellions.

Hats off to Taleworlds this is a great patch. Is there a way to get rebels to join the player faction? After creating my kingdom I don't see any options to get rebels to join kingdom but other kingdoms have rebels as lords and have married rebels into their faction. Rather than to just have rebels stay in castles some of them should just turn bandit and rebels from the same town could help each other or fight each other. I tend to treat rebels as bandits after they are defeated in a seige but once I defeat them they hide in castles I figure they would be harassing the oppressor faction and roaming the map more.

If you look at what Shogun said, it's because of gracing rights which doesn't have any negatives. This will be patched in the next update to the beta hopefully to balance out the Khuzaits more.

 

[Lornloth00]

Maybe all this snowballing could be solved with plagues being in Calradia considering the last year. Probably a bad idea though.

 

[Amerlain]

Just to add my two cents, I have to say that the new rebellions feature is a very welcome addition to the game. As far as mechanics being discussed, I also think that there should be a very small chance that a rebel clan kingdom decides to remain independent, though I wont say too much about this as it has already been discussed and it looks like developers are in favor of it.

Regarding ideas for quests that allow a player to participate in or even lead a rebellion as an alternative way to start their own kingdom, I think there should be different versions of the quest offered by the different classes of notables available in the town (Artisans, Merchants, Gang Leaders). So, a player could get a Help/Lead Rebellion quest from an Artisan notable, and if they do it it would have a somewhat different outcome as far as how the new kingdom would be structured, maybe different kingdom policies and short term rewards than if they got the equivalent quest from a Merchant or Gang Leader.

 

[lunelune2413]

Is there possibly a way in the future to add in cultural appropiate names for rebel clans in any shape or form? Jaculan recently returned to Vlandia in a rebellion and the new family is named "Aldric's clan". Compared this to all the "Dey Molarn" and "Dey Tihr" around the kingdom it just sticks out like a sore thumb. The same goes with the Southern Empire having a Losys's clan" in their Latin/Greek family names.

I was personally thinking that instead of just labelling them all as "Clans" they could all have the start of their cultures prefix clan names. Like the Aserai's "Banu", the Vlandians "Dey" and the Batannians "Fen" followed by the rebel leaders name. So a clan like Adlric's will be named "Dey Aldric" or a Aserai clan named Banu Qarasi etc etc.
When it comes to the Empire you could just have the clan named just after the rebel leader, so instead of "Losys's clan" it's just "Losys". For the Sturgians I was thinking you could take the rebel leaders name and just add in "ving" at the very end, so for example if the leader of the new clan is called "Osven" then the new clan is called "Osvenving" and for the Khuzaits I was thinking either keeping the clan part or do as the Sturgians and add in "it" at the very end of the new clan, though the "it" naming might end up with some weird names like "Jagutaiit", but it will fit the theme of the Khuzaits at least.

This might cause more problems than it will "fix". If thats the case you could also just add in a list of names that each cultural independent rebel faction can choose from (Though only once so you don't end up with 2 clans named the same way) before naming them just "Clans" after their leaders first name once the list is spent.

As you said @SadShogun, the current system is just the core system of rebellions and they can be imrpoved over time. These are just my suggestions in how to improve the immersion of rebellions in long lasting games

ALSO. Rebel clans are still at war with their old opressors even after having joining another kingdom thats at peace with them. Should I post this as a bug report?