On Crafting Orders

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Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
I haven't tried 1.6.0 but I just saw a recent Artem video where this mechanic is described and I think it's a really interesting addition. I still think that both free forging and this new type of commissioned forging would fit perfectly (in my head it works) with what I commented some time ago here.

Apart from being able to pay the blacksmith for a weapon that we can build ourselves without the skill/material impediments, I think inserting renowned blacksmiths would expand both the lore and the playable experience. These blacksmiths could be linked to the new commissioning mechanic.
 
I suggest an option or change to make orders that we don't have recipes for locked just as with the "nobody has skill high enough to do this order". There is no reason at the moment to still have those orders show as doable when we can't do them because no recipe.

Otherwise, I really like the system, finally a fun mechanic and I don't have to spam javelins anymore.
 
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Lord Irontoe

Master Knight
Am I the only one who saw "Crafting orders" and thought it would mean the player would be the one placing orders with npc blacksmiths? That's what I really wanted to see.
 

Zerofive

Veteran
crafting orders are really a great addition to the game - hope you will expand on this with armor and bow crafting
 

Althix

Sergeant
and I don't have to spam javelins anymore.
yeah no, you kinda have to craft high-value items otherwise your progress will be slow and tedious. what this change in smithing actually accomplished is that smithing now is really, really, and i mean really annoying. it's a Grind with capital G. And the only fast way to unlock parts is to craft a high-value item and smelt them.
There are 1201 crafting parts in the game. On average you need only 2% or less of the parts to make a weapon you like. Your odds that RNG will unlock these specific parts you actually want is very, very small as you can guess.
There is no forest left in Calradia when i finished with smithing. >_>
 
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Zerofive

Veteran
yeah no, you kinda have to craft high-value items otherwise your progress will be slow and tedious. what this change in smithing actually accomplished is that smithing now is really, really, and i mean really annoying. it's a Grind with capital G. And the only fast way to unlock parts is to craft a high-value item is smelt them.
There are 1201 crafting parts in the game. On average you need only 2% or less of the parts to make a weapon you like. Your odds that RNG will unlock these specific parts you actually want is very, very small as you can guess.
There is no forest left in Calradia when i finished with smithing. >_>
those are "suprise"-mechanics mate :mrgreen:
 
Is it possible to add a “tier” option to the random build option? Whether it would only pull parts just from that tier or pull together a collection of parts that are equivalent would both be interesting.
 
I would like to share my ideas about smithing and I'm not sure how much of it can be implemented. But tbh I don't believe it's too complicated for developers. I mean it shouldn't be, come on.

Smithing has a privilege compared to other workshops. Smithing has its own section in the city menu which allows us to more engagement with this mechanic. This makes it easy for players to design a weapon for themselves, which is understandable and nice to have that option.

However, currently, we cannot leave raw materials in the workshop stash and store the produced product without selling it. Thanks to the mod developers, some mods do that. But it hasn't been added to the game itself yet. I hope this happens soon and the workshops become more useful, meaningful rather than just an income-generating place.

Maybe you can separate the smithing and blacksmith workshop?

Smithing:

With smithing, we can craft weapons for ourselves. And these weapons won't appear in markets in towns. In this way, we do not create an unnecessary crowd of weapons, since we produce weapons while developing the smithing skill or just craft weapons for ourselves to equip. When the game is played for a long time, overproduction of weapons can cause problems in searching and finding the weapons we want in the markets.

Blacksmith Workshop:

How would it be to receive orders when we own a blacksmith workshop? Being a blacksmith owner will allow us to take an order. So, in a way that makes sense... If we don't own a blacksmith workshop, we can still produce weapons for ourselves in the smithing section.

Maybe you can also separate crafting orders as well, such as orders from notables and nobles. It's already separated but there can be a difference.

Weapons we crafted for notables can appear in the markets at a "fair" price. However, the weapons we crafted for nobles won't appear in the markets because we crafted those weapons just for them and it's their own unique weapons. This can be more meaningful if they actually equip that weapon. And the prices of those ordered weapons from lords may be the highest-priced items, somehow if they wanted to sell it or we captured them and ripped off their weapon from them. And of course, item quality affects the item price but maybe adding a different multiplier for each crafting category can solve the confusion.

Summary;

1- The smithing and Blacksmith workshop will be separated. So, we need to be owner or blacksmith to take orders.

2- Crafted weapons appearance in the market:
- Crafted weapon for ourselves won't appear in the market
- Crafted weapon for notables will appear in the market
- Crafted weapon for nobles won't appear in the market

3- Weapon price:
- Weapon for nobles highest multiplier
- Weapon for notable mid multiplier
- Weapon for ourselves lowest multiplier
 
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The idea was good, but the biggest problem I have is unlocked parts. When I hit clan tier 3 with a full group I could unlock all parts in about 3-4 hours non stop smithing, but after patch it seems that only smelting unlocks parts on an consistent basis. It also now takes about 8-9 hours to unlock all parts. That needs to change, who wants to grind that much time to try and get a weapons we like, most crafting orders can't be as a success since you don't have parts unlocked so it takes forever just to be decent as crafting orders being successful. Please increase part unlocks or alteast increase the % for curious smith and curious smelter, but check the code, smithing unlocks virtually nothing now
 

SadShogun

A Furtherer of the Calradic Cause
Developer
The idea was good, but the biggest problem I have is unlocked parts. When I hit clan tier 3 with a full group I could unlock all parts in about 3-4 hours non stop smithing, but after patch it seems that only smelting unlocks parts on an consistent basis. It also now takes about 8-9 hours to unlock all parts. That needs to change, who wants to grind that much time to try and get a weapons we like, most crafting orders can't be as a success since you don't have parts unlocked so it takes forever just to be decent as crafting orders being successful. Please increase part unlocks or alteast increase the % for curious smith and curious smelter, but check the code, smithing unlocks virtually nothing now
I am looking into the crafting part unlock, the times are long indeed. I cannot see why orders would lengthen them, as they give more experience than just regular crafting. Perhaps one reason is that people have to travel while focused on crafting now to get new orders.

A simple reduction in the overall experience requirement should fix the problem. One other reason is that currently, the formula is quadratic we might change it to linear (similar to character leveling experience).

I am only quoting you but I thank all people for pointing out the part unlocking issue.

I would like to share my ideas about smithing and I'm not sure how much of it can be implemented. But tbh I don't believe it's too complicated for developers. I mean it shouldn't be, come on.

Smithing has a privilege compared to other workshops. Smithing has its own section in the city menu which allows us to more engagement with this mechanic. This makes it easy for players to design a weapon for themselves, which is understandable and nice to have that option.

However, currently, we cannot leave raw materials in the workshop stash and store the produced product without selling it. Thanks to the mod developers, some mods do that. But it hasn't been added to the game itself yet. I hope this happens soon and the workshops become more useful, meaningful rather than just an income-generating place.

Maybe you can separate the smithing and blacksmith workshop?

Smithing:

With smithing, we can craft weapons for ourselves. And these weapons won't appear in markets in towns. In this way, we do not create an unnecessary crowd of weapons, since we produce weapons while developing the smithing skill or just craft weapons for ourselves to equip. When the game is played for a long time, overproduction of weapons can cause problems in searching and finding the weapons we want in the markets.

Blacksmith Workshop:

How would it be to receive orders when we own a blacksmith workshop? Being a blacksmith owner will allow us to take an order. So, in a way that makes sense... If we don't own a blacksmith workshop, we can still produce weapons for ourselves in the smithing section.

Maybe you can also separate crafting orders as well, such as orders from notables and nobles. It's already separated but there can be a difference.

Weapons we crafted for notables can appear in the markets at a "fair" price. However, the weapons we crafted for nobles won't appear in the markets because we crafted those weapons just for them and it's their own unique weapons. This can be more meaningful if they actually equip that weapon. And the prices of those ordered weapons from lords may be the highest-priced items, somehow if they wanted to sell it or we captured them and ripped off their weapon from them. And of course, item quality affects the item price but maybe adding a different multiplier for each crafting category can solve the confusion.

Summary;

1- The smithing and Blacksmith workshop will be separated. So, we need to be owner or blacksmith to take orders.

2- Crafted weapons appearance in the market:
- Crafted weapon for ourselves won't appear in the market
- Crafted weapon for notables will appear in the market
- Crafted weapon for nobles won't appear in the market

3- Weapon price:
- Weapon for nobles highest multiplier
- Weapon for notable mid multiplier
- Weapon for ourselves lowest multiplier

The player being able to give orders is an interesting idea which we will evaluate but it might be too much [give gold get better weapon] without investing time. The problem with this is not that player should not be able to pay stuff with gold (as the player is worked hard to gain the gold in the first place) but instead, gold to "powerful" weapon bypasses some of the gameplay too much in my opinion.

I agree that it ordering well-crafted or even legendary weapons would be cool, but the player should pay with something other than the gold.
These can be relation requirements (possible), influence, clan tier (which is one of the worse ones) or it might depend on your weapon skills, possessing a workshop for a long time as you suggested is possible.

Also "role-playing" is a bit like "the order is 10K gold but you can only choose the type of the weapon and the "artisans" decide what weapon they will make (so you get high but rather random stats) is possible.

I will try to bring these ideas up in our meetings.
As always thank you for your feedback.
 
I am looking into the crafting part unlock, the times are long indeed. I cannot see why orders would lengthen them, as they give more experience than just regular crafting. Perhaps one reason is that people have to travel while focused on crafting now to get new orders.

A simple reduction in the overall experience requirement should fix the problem. One other reason is that currently, the formula is quadratic we might change it to linear (similar to character leveling experience).

I am only quoting you but I thank all people for pointing out the part unlocking issue.



The player being able to give orders is an interesting idea which we will evaluate but it might be too much [give gold get better weapon] without investing time. The problem with this is not that player should not be able to pay stuff with gold (as the player is worked hard to gain the gold in the first place) but instead, gold to "powerful" weapon bypasses some of the gameplay too much in my opinion.

I agree that it ordering well-crafted or even legendary weapons would be cool, but the player should pay with something other than the gold.
These can be relation requirements (possible), influence, clan tier (which is one of the worse ones) or it might depend on your weapon skills, possessing a workshop for a long time as you suggested is possible.

Also "role-playing" is a bit like "the order is 10K gold but you can only choose the type of the weapon and the "artisans" decide what weapon they will make (so you get high but rather random stats) is possible.

I will try to bring these ideas up in our meetings.
As always thank you for your feedback.
I have a video that I did a few weeks ago that I can show where parts get unlocked at a decent rate, I can record how they are now, they have for sure been cut in half, which I kind of feel, Could it be in the code? maybe curious smelter and curious smith are not working properly? jus throwing out ideas. I know it's not just me as I have people on my channel also commenting on it taking 9 hours or longer. When I smith I collect a tons of items first before I smith so I don't count that time collecting materials in that 9 hour timeframe. I would be happy to give you video links and time stamps or record anything you might want for help,. I have a playthrough right now saved that is ready to smith and can record and time it. I'll help in anyway you need just let me know.
 

Althix

Sergeant
A simple reduction in the overall experience requirement should fix the problem.
5RMsCxr.jpg
The problem is the number of parts overall. 383 for OneHanded alone. And the majority of them have exactly the same stats.
I will give you an example. I play Sturgia mostly and Vlandia from time to time.
For Sturgia i need 10 parts in total. 2 for OneHanded Axe, 2 for TwoHanded Axe, 4 for a Lance, 2 for a javelin.
For Vlandia i need 10 parts in total. 4 for TwoHanded sword, 4 for a Lance, 2 for Throwing Axe.
10 parts out of 1201? less than 1%. My chances to get what i want are minimal.
The overall need for parts for weapons will be no higher than 20 TOPS. I don't care how the weapon looks, i need a tool which means all i care about is functionality.
I ask you to simply understand the frustration RNG system cause. I took me 9 hours straight to unlock the parts i need. And last two parts i only managed to unlock almost at the very end. 1201 parts in total in the game, i understand all of them are assets i understand all of them are man-hours. But it is simply frustrating because my Smith hit 330 long before i managed to get all the parts i wanted. Not to mention additional levels for him and the supporting companions.
If i will decide to run Vlandia in 1.6.0 i will not engage in Smithing at all, because i don't want to and will not go through the process of unlocking all the parts again. Smithing is basically dead for me as a feature of the game.
 
5RMsCxr.jpg
The problem is the number of parts overall. 383 for OneHanded alone. And the majority of them have exactly the same stats.
I will give you an example. I play Sturgia mostly and Vlandia from time to time.
For Sturgia i need 10 parts in total. 2 for OneHanded Axe, 2 for TwoHanded Axe, 4 for a Lance, 2 for a javelin.
For Vlandia i need 10 parts in total. 4 for TwoHanded sword, 4 for a Lance, 2 for Throwing Axe.
10 parts out of 1201? less than 1%. My chances to get what i want are minimal.
The overall need for parts for weapons will be no higher than 20 TOPS. I don't care how the weapon looks, i need a tool which means all i care about is functionality.
I ask you to simply understand the frustration RNG system cause. I took me 9 hours straight to unlock the parts i need. And last two parts i only managed to unlock almost at the very end. 1201 parts in total in the game, i understand all of them are assets i understand all of them are man-hours. But it is simply frustrating because my Smith hit 330 long before i managed to get all the parts i wanted. Not to mention additional levels for him and the supporting companions.
If i will decide to run Vlandia in 1.6.0 i will not engage in Smithing at all, because i don't want to and will not go through the process of unlocking all the parts again. Smithing is basically dead for me as a feature of the game.
Lets hope it is just a bug causing a perk not working properly since I know we are unlocking them at a much lower rate, even the 3 or 4 hours non stop smithing/smelting took too long in 1.5.10
 

Askorti

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WB
The problem is the number of parts overall. 383 for OneHanded alone. And the majority of them have exactly the same stats.
I strongly believe that since we already get a lot of the parts unlocks from smelting weapons, there should be modifier that makes it more likely to learn a particular part depending on what you smelt. So if you smelt a Spatha, you have a higher chance of learning a part that composes a spatha than other parts. That would help your case, as you could focus on smelting weapons that contain the parts that you want to learn.

It would be good for gameplay, it would make logical sense and it's already been done in a mod.
 

Phactos

Sergeant at Arms
Hello SadShogun, first, thanks for the changes! Smithing now seems to be more connected to the world now.
I tried to run a campaign on smithing, doing orders is fun, but my excitement lasted until the stamina bar ran out.
Smithing is the only skill in the game that restricts you to resting in the city. In the beginning of the beta when the characters lived forever this was not a big issue, but now the characters have limited lives and staying in town doing nothing is definitely not a good option.

Is it possible to review the stamina system? At the very least allow it to charge as we walk across the map. That way the player can hunt down some looters (or improve some other skill) while waiting for it to fill. Another option would be to eliminate the stamina completely and put a message of "It takes x hours to create this weapon" before creation based on the number of materials needed to create it.

Also, we need a slide bar in the refinement section, it's not very practical to have to click for every charcoal we want to produce.
 

Sir_Smittih

Recruit
I strongly believe that since we already get a lot of the parts unlocks from smelting weapons, there should be modifier that makes it more likely to learn a particular part depending on what you smelt. So if you smelt a Spatha, you have a higher chance of learning a part that composes a spatha than other parts. That would help your case, as you could focus on smelting weapons that contain the parts that you want to learn.

It would be good for gameplay, it would make logical sense and it's already been done in a mod.
+1
 
  1. Crafting Pieces and Unlocking
    Another issue we had was the fully randomized part unlocking system and the lack of pieces for certain weapon types. We will try to address these issues together as we make the unlocking system more "controllable" such that the items player crafts and the item pieces they unlock are inline and players can focus on smithing certain weapons to progress faster in the crafting pieces.
    For this reason, we also plan to expand the "piece catalog" of some weapon types. These will be the types in which we currently do not have many parts available (e.g. two-handed maces).
This is nice to hear. I hate the randomness of smithing. I try to use it to make weapons for my character and party - mainly choppy polearms and javelins - and it's really annoying having to take all the faster learning perks and level smithing to 250 in order to grind through all the rake heads, needlessly fancy pommels, and the rest of it. I just want to focus on making quality pole arms and javelins until I can start cranking out the stuff I need.

Alternatively you could just drop smithing entirely and start putting choppy polearms and javelins in the stores as often as swords and spears. That'd meet my short term needs.
 

Sarejo

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWB
A few thoughts. For unlocking parts, maybe your culture and the culture of the town your are smithing can affect what parts you learn.

It would be nice if NPCs with some Smith skill can fulfill orders and potentially improve their own relation with a noble.

Overall, a nice addition! A way of knowing about orders from other towns would be nice. But I'm unsure about how.
 
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