(Old enhancing horses thread - DO NOT POST!)

[Volkier]

Any case, there were a few arguments between people who wanted to have a 'permanent horse' at start and upgrade that, a few who preffered to buy them, some arguing about crippling etc. (just from what I read in the forums). At the moment, it seems that although the game is tremendously advanced from the rest in terms of the horse being able to take damage, the game appeals more to people who tend to use horses as a 'speed item'.

This is mainly due to the fact that the only way of getting a better horse, is to dump your old one and 'buy' a better one. Like somebody mentioned somewhere however, some serious roleplayers prefer to actually have some form of feelings for their equine companion, whereas others would use horses as mentioned earlier, as a mode of transport and prefer to jump into action without having to worry using a horse to block incoming hits since they have not spent much effort in getting it.

Lastly, whereas there are thousands of games with different modes of damage done to players, bleeding etc. there are none regarding the above mentioned matter involving mounted combat. If I am not mistaken, this awesome game is about to start off the 'evolution' of mounted combat (finally), which could be improved with simple yet realistic additions.

Anyways, here are a few ideas which may have been mentioned somewhere but mislooked by me. I know that the developers have their hands full, that it is highly unlikely that anything like this will get implimented, however here goes anyways since it just might be interesting enough to have a look at.

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** Horses able to respond to pain
-- Horses have a chance to either rear, stagger and drop on front knees, or both (in order) when hit in the neck, shoulders or chest. Will take a second or two for the rider to get horse back on its feet and continue moving where they wish to go.
(Natural reaction of a horse when experiecing pain in the front is to rear. However, certain hits may stagger the animal, causing it to drop to front knees in shock.)

-- Horses have a chance to leap forward when are hit in the hind-quarters, flanks, sides. Will take a second or two for rider to bring the animal back under control.
(Again, natural reaction for a horse is to kick out and leap away from the pain when such occurs from behind. Constant pain in a sensitive area like a flank, will madden a horse into a run)

-- Horses can be knocked down by other mounts being pushed into them from the side, or from the shock of any painful hit inflicted on them. They would take a few seconds to recover back onto their feet, even if the thrown rider can start mounting while the horse is still on the ground
(Nothing much to explain, just plain realism)

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** Personalised horses

-- Horses have their own stats. These are:
  Speed    (involves the moving speed and the turning speed of a horse)
  Strength (involves how much weight a horse can carry before it has an impact on the speed, and how much damage the horse can take)
  Stamina (will explain in detail further on)

-- Players can choose the color of the horse they get (at start) and may choose to train the horse rather than buying a better one now and then.

-- Training a horse will require the player to spend less money than buying a new one, however spending more time, during which the player who doesnt wish to train a horse could get the difference in price by hunting / trading.

-- Depending on the training you do with the horse, the horse's stats increase accordingly.

(training is explained further down in more detail)

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** Horse 'training' and medical aid
I know this was brought up before, however this is my version of it so it will probably be different.

-- Players have the following skill: horse handling. The skill involves the level up till which you are able to 'train' a horse, and up to what extent you are able to cure an injured horse.

-- Horse handling skill increases when you are 'training' or attempting to help an injured horse. Different training is done when you wish to increase different horse stats. The following is how to increase the skills your horse has.
Strenght - Is increased by a 'joulsting tournament' between yourself and an NPC. In order to pass a training 'tier', you will need to defeat (choose a number eg. 10) joulsting opponents. You pay to enter the tournament.
(Since the horses have to carry heavy armor and try to put as much force into the charge as possible, it would be natural that their muscles get stronger with time. Since horses tend to get knocked at times, they become more hardy with an increase in HP)
Speed - Is increased by entering a 'race' against NPC's. Tight corners, turns and U-turns would be included since the NPC opponent would be riding a horse with the similar speed. Once again, payment is made for entering such races.
(Turns will improve maneurability, while racing will improve speed in reality.)
Stamina - Is increased when you do a 'length race' over various obstacles (water / up and down hills) More will be explained regarding stamina further down, but briefly, you will need to control the pace of the horse over certain obsticles in order to beat your NPC opponent. Once again payment is made for entering such races.
(Read further down regarding stamina)
Although people may argue that training the horse as mentioned above has nothing to do with raising horse handling skill in terms of 'medical aid', it actually does since you get to know your horse better in terms of how much the horse can take. In reality, your horse will also end up trusting you more, therefore will be easier to treat even if the injury is more serious. (And it may be overkill if you separate the two skils)

-- Tournaments can be entered only once you have attained a certain 'level' in 'horse handling' skills. You will not be able to go to a tier past your current horse handling skills, thus your horse will not advance past the current stats untill you have got enough skill in horse handling.
You can however enter infinite number of tournaments which are on the same tier, knowing that the horse will not improve if it already has done so in that specific tier. The only thing which will improve is your 'horse handling' stat, which will only THEN allow you to enter higher tiers. You will NOT be able to spam tier after tier since they cost money, which you have to earn outside.

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(EDITED IN - ADDITIONAL IMPROVEMENTS TO HORSE PROGRESSION - 02 APR 2006)
Another way for horse level progression, that could replace the above said tournament system, or act alongside of it, is have a simple EXP > SKILL POINT system (which is currently used by the character), however the stat increase, along with additional commands may cost several levels to raise..

The system will function as follows:

-- For every 1000 points of Experience, the horse gets 1 skill / training point.
-- Players can choose to wait and accumilate that point, or spend the aquired points they may already have on the following suggested (not limited to/exepted from) skills
-- These skills, would have 5 levels each, with each level requiring a certain ammount of skill points

** Skill Levels
Level 1 - The horse knows the command, but is not likely to respond to it yet / may respond differently
Level 2 - The horse roughly knows the command, and what is expected, but still does not always respond correctly
Level 3 - The horse knows the command and what to do relatively well, however can still get distracted and respond incorrectly
Level 4 - The horse nearly always responds to the command, and often the correct way
Level 5 - The horse knows exactly what is expected, and how to respond in a correct way


** Skills (suggested - not limited to or excepted from)

-- Stats (as mentioned above) - 2 points per level up to max of (inf? 10?) levels.
-- Rear - 3 points per level. Lvl 1 - horse will sometimes rear for unknown duration of time.
                                              Lvl 2 - horse will often rear when asked for unknown duration of time.
                                              Lvl 3 - horse will almost always rear, and can turn slowly on his hind legs, and will often return to the ground when the rear
        button is released.
                                              Lvl 4 - horse will always rear, can turn well on hind legs, and can often hop hind legs for a few steps forward.
                                              Lvl 5 - horse will always rear, will turn well on hind legs, can hop forward, and will immedeately return to the ground when the rear button is released.

-- Distance Control - 4 points per level. Lvl 1 - horse will rarely run away on command, and will rarely return on command, acting randomly when not 
        mounted.
                                                                Lvl 2 - horse will often run away on command, and sometime return, often following the player during 'returning' and
        often standing still when not mounted.
                                                                Lvl 3 - horse will always run away on command, will always return and will always follow the player when 'returning',
        and will always stand still when just dismounted.
(* this is currently under discussion in other thread(s) )

-- Defence - 3 points per level. Lvl 1 - horse randomly jumps / defends itself when he feels the need to, sometimes abstructing the rider and sometimes
        doing more harm than good.
                                                    Lvl 2 - horse's defending is improved (*.* up to level 5)
                                                    Lvl 5 - horse kicks out, and dodges attacks well, co-ordinating well with the rider.
(*discussed below in other suggestions - I would suppose this would be a passive non-player controlable skill, and will actually use the horse AI)

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-- Players who do not wish to get involved with horse training, and who want to use their horse as a meat shield against incoming missiles or just as a mode of faster transport, can still purchase a faster horse from merchants. It will cost more, but they will have a lot more time on their hands to earn more since they are not training their horse, so it balances out.

-- Players who prefer to roleplay having the same horse from day 1 throught their lives, can do so and will never have to sell their companion since the horse will level up with them.

-- Players who wish to actually go into making gold by training horses, can do so by raising their 'horse handing' skill to a certain extent. They can then buy a low level horse, train it, and sell it for a profit. To achieve this, once the player has reached a certain level of 'horse handling' skill, the trials which are a few levels (eg. 5 levels) below the players 'horse handling' skill become free of charge to enter. Player's 'horse handling' skill however, will not increase in such low trials either.

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** Stamina
This is basically a second bar on the UI for your horse. It does NOT
replace HP. Here is how it works:

-- Stamina bar is divided into 5 levels. (0-1 / 1-2 / 2-3 / 3-4 / 4-5)
Sta 4-5 : Means the horse is fresh.
- Stamina will drain slowly when the horse is galloping.
+ Stamina will regenerate fast when the horse is walking, normal when trotting, slow when cantering.

Sta 3-4 : Means the horse is tired.
- Stamina will drain slowly when the horse is cantering, normal when the horse is galloping.
+ Stamina will regenerate fast when the horse is standing still, normal when walking, slow when trotting.

Sta 2-3 : Means the horse is winded.
- Stamina will drain slowly when horse is trotting, normal when horse is cantering, fast when horse is galloping.
+ Stamina will regenerate normally when horse is standing still, slow when horse is walking.

Sta 1-2 : Means the horse is exhausted, winded, and needs urgent attention.
- Stamina will drain slowly when the horse is walking, normal when horse is trotting, fast when horse is cantering, very fast when horse is galloping.
+ Stamina will regenerate slowly only when the horse is standing still at a rest.

Sta 0-1 : Means you pushed your horse past its limit, and will now have to either ride it to death, or pray that it will recover.
- The horse has a chance of dropping to the ground at any time (random every few seconds). The only way that your horse can survive is if you immedeately dismount and provide medical attention (this is where horse handling skill comes into play) to the horse. If the horse collapses, but is still alive, you can still use the skill to attempt to help the horse, but with less chance of success. Stamina below 1 will drain at a constant pace untill it reaches 0. The horse does not die when it reaches 0, but however it will take longer for you to use your skills to bring stamina back past 1, which means the longer you wait / ride your horse in this condition, the less chance there is your horse is going to make it. Obviously, the higher your horse handling skill, the faster you can regenerate stamina back past 1.

-- This is just something to add on to the realism, any damage the horse takes can take a toll onto the regeneration rate of the horse's stamina. This could simply mean:
HP = 85-100%, REGEN = N/A
HP = 50-85%,  REGEN = -0.5 points
HP = 25-50%,  REGEN = -1    points
HP = 0-25%,    REGEN = -1.5 points

-- Additional calculators could be introduced, such as encumbrance calculator:
Encumbrance = 0-30%,      REGEN =  +1    points
Encumbrance = 30-65%,    REGEN =  +0.5 points
Encumbrance = 65-100%,  REGEN =  0      points
Encumbrance = 100-110%, REGEN = -0.5  points
Encumbrance = 110-120%, REGEN = -1.0  points
(this is providing encumbrance is introduced, which I really support at the moment.)


Ok, I have come to a conclusion of my 'essay', however I probably forgot to add something important so please point out the flaws of my creative doomsday mind. I know this will be too much to impliment even if the creators and customers like it, however there might be a few ideas in there to think about on they journey to perfection in mounted combat.
Personally I would love to see a game which actually gives as much realism and feel to mounted combat as possible, and I think the same goes for a few others :

P.S. At the moment, the most disturbing thing is that the horses which had their rider killed fade away and disapear from the battlefield. This is very role-player unfriendly, very sad, unrealistic, and you could do so much with those horses. (it would actually make sense to get ur allies to mount the horses which had their riders killed, or an enemy NPC to run up to the horse and jump onto its back etc. ANYTHING but removing them from the battlefield especially in such a manner would be a lot better). Then again it is only my oppinion, however I fail to see any logical reason or explanation on why this was implimented in the first place..

Please follow the link to the Additional suggestions made by other players (and meself) throughout the post which was moved, due to exceeding 20000 characters in this post.

 

[Narcissus]

This is by far ... the single best idea I have seen yet, in regards to mounts.

The only thing that I do not agree with or, at the very least, like ... is the Sta 0-1 section ... including the 'on the battlefield' use of medical skills. That would seem sorely misplaced in this game, to me.

Great post and even though I also have my doubts this will ever happen ... I really hope this gets in the game.

Narcissus

 

[yehrom]

Very nice mind, and well synthetic/explain, it is.

Sondern,
I 'm not agree with the tournament point.
I think only "practice-horse" can be used in this aera,
like all items this contain.

 

[Khalid ibn Walid]

Excellent ideas.

-- I think there is one stat you might have forgotten: TEMPERAMENT. That would affect the horse's propensity to bolt when hit from behind/flanks. Discipline training would reduce that propensity (or make rider's "recontrolling" faster). It might also affect how much it responds to your speed increases/decreases button-pressing (if you think of pressing the buttons as a spur/pull, they can be more or less smooth/effective depending on discipline.)

-- If you're going to have in-battle fatigue, you should also have a way of coding in a horse-switch (go back to inventory and switch your horse for a fresher one). That was a common thing to do mid-battle.

-- I am not sure if I am so keen on all the different ways of training. The tournaments we have now involve a lot of strength, speed, etc. Can't they be built up there?

 

[SilentBob]

great idea! it would really enhance the already great game in my humble opinion!!

 

[yehrom]

That's said,
difficult to imagine that Armagan 6 Ipek haven't yet their once horse enhancement project.
^^

 

[Ancientwanker]

Theyve said in the past that horses take up alot of memory as dynamic models, thats why they fade. If every horse stayed on the battlefield and then more fresh riders arrived, it would kill your framerates.

I agree that there should be more detail to horse stats and an ability to upgrade them. I made a system using conversation.txt that lets you add on things like fine saddles, shoes or heavy armor but its not really the same horse so you lose any prefix it might have had such as "spirited".

Short term Id like to see a command operation to store an items prefixes and another command to apply prefixes. This would be for user made horse customization.

Long term a horse customizing revamp would be very welcome.

 

[Destichado]

This is a great idea.

 

[jknemesis]

A good suggestion in some regard, though I disagree with you on some points and think that it would change the mechanics of the game in an undesireable fashion.

For starters, I don't think that horses should have stats that "increase" with training that consists of jousting, racing, etc. Horses are bred for their traits. A horse simply can't get that amazingly strong/fast/healthy just because you put it through races and jousting tournaments. If anything, a horse that is put through constant stress will get harder to ride and take care of. That being said, I do think, however that players should be able to take a more active role in taking care of horses. Perhaps, if players are able to get strongholds, then they should be able to raise horses, selectively breeding the healthier ones for their traits and then making sure that horses are well kept and well fed as they grow.

I liked your idea about rearing/kicking/bucking, etc. As your riding skill increases, why not reduce the chances of having horses react negatively when panicked / injured, and increase the chances of the horse kicking/biting enemies in combat, to the point where, with very high riding skill, players can actually have horses attack on cue.

Also, because horses take time to get used to their riders, you could have horses become easier to manage the longer they are in their owner's posession.

 

[Volkier]

Nemesis, it is true what you say about horses being bred for specific reasons. It could be argued jpwever, that in reality, although the horse will never be super strong in everything, they CAN be trained to become better. The reason I thought of tournamets as 'training sessions' is so that significat effort and time is put into 'training' the horses, this would compensate for spending NO effort, but MORE money purchasing an already trained horse. Also, currently the game's 'better' horses are faster, more maneurable, have more hp and armor based on higher price. 'Training' will only provide an alternative to achieve this without changing the actual horse that the player starts with.

As for riding decreasing the chance of your horses reacting negatively to pain, that is not really realistic, however riding skill could DECREASE the time it takes for you to bring your horse under control. Temperament skill would be nice as well, and I did think of it, however if I put up everything I thought of that day, it would probably sound too confusing for anybody to even read :

Ancientwanker Thank you for clarifying that for me, I didn't find the actual post regarding that matter. In that case would it be possible for me to suggest to the developers to let the horses walk off the actual battlefield? In that case, players could still run after them (providing they CAN run faster than the horse is limping off), it is more realistic, and ultimately same purpose is still achieved. Alternatively, maybe the horses could be 'scared off' by 'fresh riders' when they arrive. I just personally find that it ruins the 'feel' of the game at the moment when horses just disappear, but once again thats just my personal oppinion.

Khalid I did think of temperament, and a few other horse stats, however I thought that if I put everything I thought of into the idea, it would become too complex to understand. Since most horses temperament will ultimately come down to who rides them, temperament could be a part of 'strenght' in terms of 'how well a horse can recieve hits, and not panic'. Reason why I suggested 3 new tournaments, is because the goal is different, and to add variety to the game. It also may cause a clash between the group of people who want to spend time training their horse, and the group of people who participate in tournament for the combat.

Narcissus What I actually pictured, is that you choose when to exit the battle-ground, so if you wish to stay behind to help your horse recover after the battle, you can set a 'camp' and do so for a few game hours or a game day (this is only a few minutes real time). If you choose to abandon your horse, or continue your journey on the horse in its current state, you can exit (like you do so at the moment) and do so. Since the idea I had involved a real time minute or two in 'treating the horse', it would be pretty suicidal to do this during the actual battle since we all know what will happen to you if the enemies are still around and you dismount and stand still for even 10 seconds.

This is also why I thought of STA 0-1, where you can still push the horse even though it is exhausted, there is a continuous chance that the horse will collapse, and a chance the horse will die. This will (in my oppinion) improve realism, will give players more choice, and it would enhance the roleplayin experience greatly. Since I was thinking of the best way to separate STA from being mistaken with HP, it seemed inapropriate to me that the horse will die once STA reaches 0. Likewise, if the horse just collapses exhausted, and recovers later on by itself, this will just promote players to ignore the STA meter completely, and just ride their horses untill they drop since there is no penalty on the speed, (and there shouldn't be since in reality horses can be pushed past their limits and run at the same speed regardless how tired they get)


---

Hopefully I clarified myself to a few people, it is obviously still your oppinions whether you like my idea or not, however I was just trying to explain why and how I came up with this and that, as well as explain what I actually mean in a bit more detail. Please don't think I am trying to argue against something which has a very low chance of even being implimented, I was just tryin to explain my own reasoning :

---
Now to add on to something I missed yesterday, and which I think would be a simple yet nice impliment-

** Additional control - rear horse
As we all know, warhorses were trained to rear at the riders command so as to increase the damage with the weapons since the horse's weight as well as the rider's weight would come down on the enemy. Proposed addition is to add a control by which you make your horse rear, and if you attack as the horse is going back down, you will do a bonus damage - an alternative to charging when you are stationary. The bonus to damage can be based on the initial horse's "charge" power since heavier horses will come down heavier. I don't know if there have been any posts regarding this idea, but if there was, then kindly forgive me, I didn't find them ::*(

 

[chadz]

About the horses fading out of the battlefield:

I always wondered why the horses don't just die together with their riders, and then fade out, lying on the ground. It would maybe look a bit strange that you hit the foe and both the rider and the horse break down dead, but it would probably look less strange than a horse standing on the battlefield and fading out.

 

[Mage246]

About the horses fading out of the battlefield:

I always wondered why the horses don't just die together with their riders, and then fade out, lying on the ground. It would maybe look a bit strange that you hit the foe and both the rider and the horse break down dead, but it would probably look less strange than a horse standing on the battlefield and fading out.

Maybe horses are far more noble than their riders, and so their spirits fade more gradually . Sorry, been reading too much Gulliver's Travels lately, which makes horses sound like saints.

 

[Volkier]

Because that's what makes this game so realistic and awesome. Horses are NOT part of the rider, so they would not die when the rider is killed like every single other game. Each one could be attacked separately. Could there be at least an option somewhere? (eg. realistic combat - corpses and horses stay, or lagfree combat - corpses and horses disappear)

Right now it is probably the ONLY thing which breaks my mood of continuing playing after an hour or so. If it lags, players can just kill the riderless horses and fix it that way as well...
*Begs for an option to let horses stay on the battlefield

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One more thing, what about 'reverse couching attack'? When your horse has been killed, and you are on the ground WITH a lance, when an enemy is charging at you on his horse, is the impact not the same if you aim the lance for the horse? (Like in braveheart when teh irish stopped english cavalry charge with spears : ) Just a thought to make the 'horseless' have a bit more of a chance of survival against a charging knight :

 

[chadz]

I know it's not realistic, but more realistic than horses becoming spirits

 

[Volkier]

Yeah, but thats what makes this game different and why we all play due to the superior mounted combat right? It would be just as bad...

By the way, forgot to ask, could horses have reins added into their graphical models? Just the graphics : Or would that be too problematic? (One of my inital ideas was having reins, and players being able to cut them to reduce response of horse to rider, but that was one of the things I though would be a bit too complex :)

 

[The Pope]

I'd like to have idle animations for horses when you leave them standing around. Even if it's just breathing and moving their heads a bit.

 

[Volkier]

What would you guys think of regarding 'breeding' of horses in M&B? Ie. the ability to cross a hunter with a steppe horse etc. and get something else? It would also create a use for lame / swaybacked horses since at the moment their usage is nil, and personally I don't buy anything less than 'spirited' :

 

[Orion]

Well, at the moment, leaving a wounded (lame) or swaybacked horse in your inventory for a certain amount of time will heal the horse. Of course, it only brings it up to normal, so it can't be spirited again.

Also, horse breeding is probably one of the best ideas floating around on the forums right now. Of course, it could be exploited, so that some one could cross a Heavy Charger with a Spirited Courser and get a hybrid with lots of Charging ability and good speed/meneuverability.

Of course, you would first need to GET those horses... and horse breeding could be a skill, so that, the higher your skill, the better the offspring.

It would be a nice source of income, as well. A nice horse is always good to have, and they're extremely expensive. Maybe, instead of M&B being an entirely action-centered RPG (except when you're running goods from one city to the next), perhaps there could be a "civilian" way of life.

Instead of going around fighting bandits, you could be a horse breeder, or a farmer, or maybe even a caravan master

Perhaps you could talk to someone in Zendar who's the head of some guild or w/e, buy your self a small bit of land, which you could farm, build a house on, etc.

After getting your land, you could then proceed to adding buildings, such as stables, a mill, a house for your self, etc. The slaves you get during battle could then be used to farm your land, tend to your livestock, etc. You could turn your plot of land into a great horse-farm, where you breed horses, train them, and sell them to all those knights-in-shining-armor, so they can go run them selves off of cliffs in style.

~out~

 

[Sir Jodi]

Great idea Volkier. I really hope that comes in to the future releases.
It could be a hard thing to do though.

I would also like to make an addition. Horse Equipment. So you would be able to purchase armour and other equipment for your horse. THis could include basic chain armour, plates like the charger has, heraldic armour(cloth on top and chain underneath, same as we see in tournaments in movies)horse shoes, banners, and even some special armour like spiked ones(which increase the damage done when the horse runs into someone)

 

[Volkier]

Agree with horse armor (I think I mentioned it in the very first post of this thread as well) however before armor comes, I really would like to see the weight of the armor having effect on the menurability / speed of the horse / human. It would give players an actual choice of HOW they want to fight, (invest heavily in maneurability and speed or go for a tin-can type of a tank) rather than just a continuos chase for a better and better armors.

And last thing that I think would make players enjoy the game for more / longer, is introduction to normal clothes (like capes with hoods to cover the armor) so that your character doesnt always run around the world in a full plate main which weighs about as much as the person itself. Personally i think cloaks with hoods look slightly more appealing than a moveless plate mail :

BTW, finally managed to find my credit card. It was stuck behind the motherboard of my spare computer which is half-dismantled. LoL