[Observation/Suggestion] Unintended benefit to the .720 couching system?

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CtrlAltDe1337

Sergeant Knight
Observation:
So I've been playing cav more on .720 and I have noticed something.  The way couching works now, a horse that moves slower and has slower turning stats can turn more while still keeping their lance in couch mode.  You can theoretically do the same thing by simply slowing down your horse and tapping A or D with a fast horse, but its a lot easier with a big, slow warhorse or charger.
      Now, the point is, this is a really good thing!  A warhorse should have an easier time couching than a courser.  And this is what this patch helps achieve.  Sarranid, desert, and steppe horses seem to have the hardest time at controlling a couch(because of their turning skill, they reset the lance position really easily).  In my opinion, this is a great gameplay change that is also really realistic.  Heavy cavalry would traditionally use couching the most, while light cavalry fulfilled more of a skirmisher role part of the time. I think if the amount you could turn without reseting your couch could be increased slightly, it would make the cavalry system much better than any version before, as right now it still resets a little too easily.

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Suggestion:
Or better yet, the system could be improved even more with a few simple changes.
      First, make it where you press X to swap the lance into "couch mode" (like swapping the great axe now).  In couching mode, you click to lower the lance and it stays down for a certain amount of time.  This will add a little more skill into the equation.  Basically, this is similar to Welcome to Hell's suggestion.  BUT--when in couching mode, limit your ability to turn, equivalent to how far you can turn in .720 without reseting the lance.  i.e. you can mash down A or D but it only turns you at the same speed as tapping A or D to keep your lance down in .720.  This will stop people from accidentally turning too far and raising their lance while trying to couch, while keeping the turn limitation in.  The turn limitation is a good thing, as it keeps people from riding in circles in couch position, and makes you think harder about when to try to couch and when to thrust

Is this perhaps the holy grail of M&B cavalry?  All 3 forms of cavalry combat will have their place (couch, thrust, sword), and different horses will be better for different combat styles even more than now.
 
That's quite interesting actually, although I'm not 100% on what you mean(in the first half)
 
Basically, slower and less maneuverable horses give you more control when couching because the move slower and turn worse.  This lets you turn more while still couching, and it helps you be more precise on aiming because you turn slower.  Together, it makes warhorses and chargers the easiest to couch with.  You can go test this out yourself by getting on several different kinds of horses and trying to couch.  Its much more difficult to do it on a sarranid, desert, or steppe horse as a slight change in direction will usually reset your lance (because they turn so far so quickly).  High maneuverability is vital for thrusting, but with couching its really easy to reset your lance right as you are charging and thus miss your target.
 
I think that if the turn limits were relaxed a little (as in 3 times more freedom on the light horses and 4 or 5 times more on the heavies) this would be pretty well balanced. I'd certainly like to try it.
 
I noticed this yesterday, charger + greatlance seemed much easier to couch with.  I wasn't sure if I was just hallucinating or not.
 
That sounds interesting. But I still don't like the new system.
But: If couching would work with chargers and warhorses as it did before .720 and if it would work as bad as it does now for all the other horses, I could live with that.

A warhorse is a very well trained animal. It is trained to react immediately on every command the rider gives with his legs. And it is trained to walk in a certain way to make couching easier.
Therefore it makes no sense that the rider has to stop couching while turning.
But if the horses would finally be separated into light and heavy cavalry, it would make sense that the lighter cav isn't that good for couching as the light  horses are not real warhorses.
 
But if the horses would finally be separated into light and heavy cavalry, it would make sense that the lighter cav isn't that good for couching as the light  horses are not real warhorses.

THIS. It makes perfect sense.
 
That's really interesting, haven't tried couching with a warhorse. In fact, I haven't couched since this new patch because it seemed so annoying to me... I will try this with a heavier horse :wink:
 
Nice observation. I agree that the change to couching in the latest patch would be a lot better if it weren't so extreme. If this actually scaled according to horse types, which it seems like it already does, it would be great. Maybe the difference in turn restriction between light and heavy horses should be greater, though.
 
It's great to see Cavalry finally being really balanced. Apart from couching being allowed slightly more turning, I also suggest Thrusting do a little less damage. I got one thrust killed while in full armour, and that was from the lance touching me! I had blocked down, but their horse hit me, then the lance hit me and still killed in one hit.
 
CtrlAltDe1337 说:
Observation:
So I've been playing cav more on .720 and I have noticed something.  The way couching works now, a horse that moves slower and has slower turning stats can turn more while still keeping their lance in couch mode.  You can theoretically do the same thing by simply slowing down your horse and tapping A or D with a fast horse, but its a lot easier with a big, slow warhorse or charger.
      Now, the point is, this is a really good thing!  A warhorse should have an easier time couching than a courser.  And this is what this patch helps achieve.  Sarranid, desert, and steppe horses seem to have the hardest time at controlling a couch(because of their turning skill, they reset the lance position really easily).  In my opinion, this is a great gameplay change that is also really realistic.  Heavy cavalry would traditionally use couching the most, while light cavalry fulfilled more of a skirmisher role part of the time. I think if the amount you could turn without reseting your couch could be increased slightly, it would make the cavalry system much better than any version before, as right now it still resets a little too easily.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suggestion:
Or better yet, the system could be improved even more with a few simple changes.
      First, make it where you press X to swap the lance into "couch mode" (like swapping the great axe now).  In couching mode, you click to lower the lance and it stays down for a certain amount of time.  This will add a little more skill into the equation.  Basically, this is similar to Welcome to Hell's suggestion.  BUT--when in couching mode, limit your ability to turn, equivalent to how far you can turn in .720 without reseting the lance.  i.e. you can mash down A or D but it only turns you at the same speed as tapping A or D to keep your lance down in .720.  This will stop people from accidentally turning too far and raising their lance while trying to couch, while keeping the turn limitation in.  The turn limitation is a good thing, as it keeps people from riding in circles in couch position, and makes you think harder about when to try to couch and when to thrust

Is this perhaps the holy grail of M&B cavalry?  All 3 forms of cavalry combat will have their place (couch, thrust, sword), and different horses will be better for different combat styles even more than now.

Great analysis, Ctrl. Your suggestion has my support.
 
Mabons 说:
It's great to see Cavalry finally being really balanced. Apart from couching being allowed slightly more turning, I also suggest Thrusting do a little less damage. I got one thrust killed while in full armour, and that was from the lance touching me! I had blocked down, but their horse hit me, then the lance hit me and still killed in one hit.
Betcha anything he got you in the face.  Especially since you were horsebumped first.  Were you wearing a helmet?  I don't get killed by a thrust in one hit wearing even leather ever.  I feel thrust damage is at a good place considering it's long range.
 
Mabons 说:
It's great to see Cavalry finally being really balanced. Apart from couching being allowed slightly more turning, I also suggest Thrusting do a little less damage. I got one thrust killed while in full armour, and that was from the lance touching me! I had blocked down, but their horse hit me, then the lance hit me and still killed in one hit.
No..............thrusting is already pitifully weak.  Try playing cavalry and see for yourself.  I am not sure if thrusting got a slight increase in a recent patch, as it feels like it might be a bit stronger.  But I haven't seen this in the patch notes.  If anything, thrusting needs to be more powerful, especially now that lances cost more.  If you get horse bumped by a lancer, you usually have opportunity to attack his horse before he hits you, so I don't think this is a balance issue.  But that's for another thread :wink:
 
cavalry is not balanced at all at the moment. Its so much weaker than infantry. The new couch system is awful, the attack animations for sword and board need to be redone, and overall you're just a giant target. Being cavalry is a handicap at this point


we need 3 changes

#1) A couch system that is intuitive but skill based
#2) New attack animations which can hit lower targets easier and more consistently
#3) A system that encourages players to use more expensive horses over the cheap and quick horses.
 
CtrlAltDe1337 说:
Observation:
So I've been playing cav more on .720 and I have noticed something.  The way couching works now, a horse that moves slower and has slower turning stats can turn more while still keeping their lance in couch mode.  You can theoretically do the same thing by simply slowing down your horse and tapping A or D with a fast horse, but its a lot easier with a big, slow warhorse or charger.
      Now, the point is, this is a really good thing!  A warhorse should have an easier time couching than a courser.  And this is what this patch helps achieve.  Sarranid, desert, and steppe horses seem to have the hardest time at controlling a couch(because of their turning skill, they reset the lance position really easily).  In my opinion, this is a great gameplay change that is also really realistic.  Heavy cavalry would traditionally use couching the most, while light cavalry fulfilled more of a skirmisher role part of the time. I think if the amount you could turn without reseting your couch could be increased slightly, it would make the cavalry system much better than any version before, as right now it still resets a little too easily.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suggestion:
Or better yet, the system could be improved even more with a few simple changes.
      First, make it where you press X to swap the lance into "couch mode" (like swapping the great axe now).  In couching mode, you click to lower the lance and it stays down for a certain amount of time.  This will add a little more skill into the equation.  Basically, this is similar to Welcome to Hell's suggestion.  BUT--when in couching mode, limit your ability to turn, equivalent to how far you can turn in .720 without reseting the lance.  i.e. you can mash down A or D but it only turns you at the same speed as tapping A or D to keep your lance down in .720.  This will stop people from accidentally turning too far and raising their lance while trying to couch, while keeping the turn limitation in.  The turn limitation is a good thing, as it keeps people from riding in circles in couch position, and makes you think harder about when to try to couch and when to thrust

Is this perhaps the holy grail of M&B cavalry?  All 3 forms of cavalry combat will have their place (couch, thrust, sword), and different horses will be better for different combat styles even more than now.

This would make it so only the wealthy can couch-Warhorses aren't exactly cheap, and a good player can dehorse somebody pretty quickly. I would support if couching mode lets you move your lance out farther.

What do you think?
 
Seawied86 说:
cavalry is not balanced at all at the moment. Its so much weaker than infantry. The new couch system is awful, the attack animations for sword and board need to be redone, and overall you're just a giant target. Being cavalry is a handicap at this point


we need 3 changes

#1) A couch system that is intuitive but skill based
#2) New attack animations which can hit lower targets easier and more consistently
#3) A system that encourages players to use more expensive horses over the cheap and quick horses.
I don't feel that cavalry is underpowered at all. Sure, I wouldn't mind if couching was more skill based, but overall, cavalry shouldn't get any stronger than it currently is. My only issues are the low maneuverability of heavy horses and how easily horses gets shot down by archers.
 
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