NW melee and MM melee : Poll

NW or MM melee?

  • NW

    Votes: 171 45.6%
  • MM

    Votes: 204 54.4%

  • Total voters
    375

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Pelgrane said:
How much teamwork was there in MM? Cav could sometimes try to do it with the whole distract and swoop in thing. Inf...I don't know, it was pretty awful to watch MM too. Teamkills everywhere, lone wolves wading through entire mobs.

I don't know. Perhaps I didn't play MM enough, but I never witnessed as many teamkills as I do when playing NW. I imagine it had to do with the fact that half the bayonet's attacks couldn't injure teammates unless you were facing away from them.

Pelgrane said:
Basically you're hoping skill levels will universally go up so that an intelligent metagame can develop, for which MM would be more suited (let's accept that for now) than NW. I think the problem here is expecting skill levels to universally go up until an intelligent metagame can develop.  :razz:

The problem here is having a system that accommodates a lower skill level. With the current system, players can sit back and spam, without knowing that they could get 'better', and learn to melee properly. Back in MM, if you had no idea what you were doing, and couldn't block, you died... very quickly. From there, you either got better, via practice, or you kept dying. It's actually rather disappointing that the former MM community (Those who do, not all of you lads) would accept a system that doesn't challenge anyone.

Pelgrane said:
Given the level of players that are actually around, why is MM a better system in general when they can't really even make an impact?

Because it encourages the average player to get better, until they can make an impact. (Coming from someone who once spammed to stay alive - Had I only played NW, I'd have never known that I should practice, and as a result, get better.)
 
Well then look at it this way - In MM, it wasn't easy to spam off a couple blocks. Actually it was harder to never hit the block button, and what came from this? People actually got better. Well if they got better they would improve on certain basic skills, (awareness) and actually know what blocking as. However, since this melee system allows me to rip through entire servers by just bashing my face against whatever key I have attack binded to, I never really learned anything. As a result, anyone who did marginally OK in MM can now just toss say, awareness and blocking, into the wind. There are also those who found Warband through Napoleonic Wars. Now this is simple, people who bought the game, to be blunt, suck. And they will suck until obviously, they get better. If we have a system (Which a fair majority of us are teetering on the verge of calling it broken) that doesn't encourage blocking or looking to the right or left of you, you won't get better.

This DLC or whatever you want to call it was released around April 19th. Is has been around 2 months since then, and I don't notice any real change. Now that can just be the point that the older people simply dropped the game and don't play it (Which isn't a good thing either) or no one has learned a thing.
 
DrTaco said:
Well then look at it this way - In MM, it wasn't easy to spam off a couple blocks. Actually it was harder to never hit the block button, and what came from this? People actually got better. Well if they got better they would improve on certain basic skills, (awareness) and actually know what blocking as. However, since this melee system allows me to rip through entire servers by just bashing my face against whatever key I have attack binded to, I never really learned anything. As a result, anyone who did marginally OK in MM can now just toss say, awareness and blocking, into the wind. There are also those who found Warband through Napoleonic Wars. Now this is simple, people who bought the game, to be blunt, suck. And they will suck until obviously, they get better. If we have a system (Which a fair majority of us are teetering on the verge of calling it broken) that doesn't encourage blocking or looking to the right or left of you, you won't get better.

This DLC or whatever you want to call it was released around April 19th. Is has been around 2 months since then, and I don't notice any real change. Now that can just be the point that the older people simply dropped the game and don't play it (Which isn't a good thing either) or no one has learned a thing.

I don't know, to be honest. There's a lot of players with no awareness and no blocking, and that makes experienced players lazy...yeah I get that. It's also a larger community than MM used to be. It could be just the numbers talking, so that even if you do really well, you don't really stand out and there's no need to try to match up to you as long as they're training against someone else who is just as bad the entire time.

Though - certain things I could take from MM. Less lethality. Make the bayonet a little less universally good. It was already too good to really be called balanced in MM, so when they made it better in NW I was unpleasantly surprised. But I also felt that timing was much more predictable with MM. You knew where and when your strike would land, more or less. Here I sometimes just shrug and carry on. Devs say nothing really changed but obviously something's different just the same. This is not only bayonets, it's even more evident with swords.

But - I just also vividly remember the bad parts of MM. Spinning. Jump-spinning. Camping (camping camping camping). Lots of "this was a duel!" nonsense. Teamkills. Camping. There was a much smaller and by necessity more engaged community, but it was an exceptionally opinionated one, to the point of constant draining negativity. The whining per capita was astronomical. It was basically made of people like me and I don't always like people like me.

I would want to play NW with some MM brought back, but I wouldn't want to play MM as it was again. So I think I will disengage here. You can count me as tentatively on your side provided this is a 'how to make NW better' thread and not "MM was all rose water and happy rainbows' thread.

 
Pelgrane said:
Though - certain things I could take from MM. Less lethality. Make the bayonet a little less universally good.

Slower*, shorter, less likely to bounce, yes. Weaker, no. Certainly a less lethal overhead attack, but the bayonet can currently take upwards of four hits to kill someone.

[* A shorter weapon, with the same speed stat, would actually be 'slower'. Thus keeping the current speed could work, rather well.]

Pelgrane said:
But - I just also vividly remember the bad parts of MM. Spinning. Jump-spinning. Camping (camping camping camping). Lots of "this was a duel!" nonsense. Teamkills. Camping. There was a much smaller and by necessity more engaged community, but it was an exceptionally opinionated one, to the point of constant draining negativity. The whining per capita was astronomical. It was basically made of people like me and I don't always like people like me.

Spinning is a necessary evil, when you consider what will be saved, in terms of melee. Jump spinning will never return, even if Vince agrees to change the melee at all. That was an issue with how the game worked the crouch function. Camping still occurs in NW; but the campers don't have an indestructible fort to hide in now. And you'd be surprised the number of people who get slain/kicked/banned for teamkilling 'because it was/is a duel'.

Pelgrane said:
I would want to play NW with some MM brought back, but I wouldn't want to play MM as it was again. So I think I will disengage here. You can count me as tentatively on your side provided this is a 'how to make NW better' thread and not "MM was all rose water and happy rainbows' thread.

'Tis what it's been the entire time. MM had its issues, but it had an overall better system than NW has now.
 
TheBoberton said:
Spinning is a necessary evil, when you consider what will be saved, in terms of melee.

Nobody convincingly explained why bringing back higher turning speed would change timing/detection for the better (as opposed to say redrawing the animation or making the bayonet shorter, gameplay over accuracy dammit!). I think that's the big bad issue: timing is all off. Just how much turn rate do you need to be able to chamber again?

EDIT2: Of course one way to make the upstab be less attractive (which Evan wants) is to take away the headshot damage multiplier/armour the head. It doesn't even make sense anyway. Yeah, you get concussions, but you also have a pretty tough skull. Getting skewered in the belly or throat is just as bad.

Camping still occurs in NW; but the campers don't have an indestructible fort to hide in now. And you'd be surprised the number of people who get slain/kicked/banned for teamkilling 'because it was/is a duel'.

Hey, at least the mods are active now. MM was troll heaven, nobody ever did anything. People didn't even blink when someone stabbed your horse at spawn. You had to run away from the spawn in linebattles, for the love of oranges, because you'd just get stabbed, and at best they'd reset, and at worst they'd just shrug.

Camping now is also much harder, but that's because the maps have less mountains on them. People today whine about dragoons running away to reload. I just think of what NA servers used to be like and how much time per round was spend finding the hiding bastard, compare to the dragoons and how quickly they get shamed into running into that bayonet, and grin. It takes less time to finish Hugomont with 70 a side than it did to finish Swedish Town/Waterloo/House2 with 15 a side back then. In some ways NW is much better, though for reasons unrelated to the actual game mechanics.

So once again: why do you need turning speed to detect attacks?
 
Pelgrane said:
So once again: why do you need turning speed to detect attacks?
I'll hop in here.
Low turning speed plays hell with damage calculations of stab, because calculations use time passed from releasing the stab (or percent of animation which was run). With low turning speed when both players are moving around, you will often hit them later or faster than it should have been, resulting sometimes in glances with perfectly timed stabs, other times you will 1 hit kill with crap placed stab.
Also, hitboxes of stabbing polearms are more to the right than the mesh is, which isn't noticeable with normal turning speeds, because turn speed easily makes up for bad hitboxes. But with low turning speeds, your bayonet will pass thru people without hit being detected and you can't turn fast enough to actually negate broken hitbox. That's one of the reason spam is still prevalent on battle, spamming and strafing right will always get your hit first in if your enemy doesn't land perfect stab (which happens rarely, cause of low turning speed).
Chambering with this low turning speeds is risky as it always was (perhaps even more, since it's even harder to chamber spinners when you turn so slow) but it is far more easily blockable, because chambers will rarely make direct hit with this low turning speed, allowing you to easily block them or even dodge them.

Pelgrane said:
EDIT2: Of course one way to make the upstab be less attractive (which Evan wants) is to take away the headshot damage multiplier/armour the head. It doesn't even make sense anyway. Yeah, you get concussions, but you also have a pretty tough skull. Getting skewered in the belly or throat is just as bad.
Erm, upper stab needs some serious rebalancing, because having unblockable instahits is purely retarded. Not to mention that it always hits the head (getting 2x damage multiplier) but has only 5 base damage less is bad idea. Also, having it being faster than down stab is quite strange. It needs to be slowed down (it could maybe even make feintspam less of I win button) and it's damage halved. It would still be lethal attack, it just wouldn't be primary attack.


As for spinning, it wasn't removed at all. Players which usually carve thru enemy team still spin like drunken ballerinas. Turn speed reducing only resulted in quite broken melee while reason why it was done is still present (not as much as it used to but it's still quite viable technique).
 
Oposum said:
Pelgrane said:
So once again: why do you need turning speed to detect attacks?
I'll hop in here.
Low turning speed plays hell with damage calculations of stab, because calculations use time passed from releasing the stab (or percent of animation which was run). With low turning speed when both players are moving around, you will often hit them later or faster than it should have been, resulting sometimes in glances with perfectly timed stabs, other times you will 1 hit kill with crap placed stab.
Also, hitboxes of stabbing polearms are more to the right than the mesh is, which isn't noticeable with normal turning speeds, because turn speed easily makes up for bad hitboxes. But with low turning speeds, your bayonet will pass thru people without hit being detected and you can't turn fast enough to actually negate broken hitbox. That's one of the reason spam is still prevalent on battle, spamming and strafing right will always get your hit first in if your enemy doesn't land perfect stab (which happens rarely, cause of low turning speed).
Chambering with this low turning speeds is risky as it always was (perhaps even more, since it's even harder to chamber spinners when you turn so slow) but it is far more easily blockable, because chambers will rarely make direct hit with this low turning speed, allowing you to easily block them or even dodge them.

Pelgrane said:
EDIT2: Of course one way to make the upstab be less attractive (which Evan wants) is to take away the headshot damage multiplier/armour the head. It doesn't even make sense anyway. Yeah, you get concussions, but you also have a pretty tough skull. Getting skewered in the belly or throat is just as bad.
Erm, upper stab needs some serious rebalancing, because having unblockable instahits is purely retarded. Not to mention that it always hits the head (getting 2x damage multiplier) but has only 5 base damage less is bad idea. Also, having it being faster than down stab is quite strange. It needs to be slowed down (it could maybe even make feintspam less of I win button) and it's damage halved. It would still be lethal attack, it just wouldn't be primary attack.


As for spinning, it wasn't removed at all. Players which usually carve thru enemy team still spin like drunken ballerinas. Turn speed reducing only resulted in quite broken melee while reason why it was done is still present (not as much as it used to but it's still quite viable technique).

Oposum wins the thread. Theres nothing else to say really. This is all absolutely correct.
 
Oposum said:
As for spinning, it wasn't removed at all. Players which usually carve thru enemy team still spin like drunken ballerinas. Turn speed reducing only resulted in quite broken melee while reason why it was done is still present (not as much as it used to but it's still quite viable technique).

Yh, this is the big irony actually. You can still do 360 spins by exploiting mouse sensitivities to cause the camera to spin. What has been reduced is all the smaller-angle turning though. Trying to do sophsticated turns in a 180 is where the turning speed reduction has been most severe, and it's now negatively affected all the skills that you can perform withing that area: chambering, kicking, precision stabs, delayed stabs, etc: a lot of it very much reduced and the true 360 spins still prevailing.
 
Although I like the NA melee for its speed, it does get boring at times. Just the other day, I was on the 84e siege server. I was playing with the MM style; go forward blocking down, and watching for the up attack. My opponent through the up attack, and I was just able to block, but not to counter attack, so I retreated behind the safety of a dirt wall. Next I charged in with a upper stab, moved back slightly, clicking as quickly as possible, and I killed 3 in a row. It took no skill at all, and it wasn't as satisfying as blocking the down strike, striking at the side of your opponent, getting blocked, and continuing until I made a mistake. (I was never that good at MM due to 300 ping) I don't mean to say that the NA style of fighting wasn't fun, it raised my heart rate, and made me happy, but I'd have been happier if I had killed the 3 using huge amounts of skill.

It was true that the MM combat was not balanced; lancers (I was pretty good with them) killed any and everything, and swords could be simplified to block, left attack, right attack, and the spin attack was unbeatable. But, it really was fun. Even when I was a true noob, I found it amazing that players could even think about doing the jump, crouch, spin, attack. When I finally figured it out (sort of) it was a huge accomplishment.

I hate to bring Native into the argument, what differentiated MM from Native, was the complexity in using 2 attacks. (Native players will never own with a alpwick) NA tried to fix the unballancedness from MM, and succeeded very well, but by doing so, they simplified the simplified combat of MM, meaning, the game takes little time to master, and means that new players can kill some of the best players. (I'm not one of the best)

I'm one of the players with 300 ping who has to wait half a second for an attack to go through. This led me really plan my attacks. As I ran towards my enemy, I would plan. Was I going to block first then swing around to attack from the back? Was I going to stop walking a the last moment and let him wast his attack on the air, then stab him? My decisions were based on knowing a players personality, knowing their style. If I knew that they always attacked first and had a slow up block, I'd falter at the last moment, then finesse a down strike and then attack up. In NA, there is less of a personality, and more of, move mouse up CLICK CLICK CLICK, AHH they are attacking, RANDOM RIGHT CLICK, CLICK CLICK CLICK.  After months of using the NA system, I have still not found  a truly different personality to fight against. Instead, most personalities can be simplified to  up stab up stab up stab block upstab, with a bit of swinging around, trying to get behind your enemy. The lack of personality in the game has made it more like fighting against really good bots rather than people.

It is the people who make a multiplayer game interesting. The people were really present in MM, jokes were cracked, people used the chat, and everyone had a style. In NA, the chat function (for 84e siege anyway) is only used to shout MAKE A BREACH, WORK YOU NOOBIE SAPPERS, SAVE BP. (I'll admit I'm guilty of this) also in NA, people don't really have a style. In NA, there is no personality, there are no people, NA's combat system has killed the multiplayerness of the game, and has made the game less interesting.


NOTES:

This does talk a lot about things seemingly not related to combat, such as the chat, but I'd argue that the less use of the chat is due to the new combat system. The new system is fast, and leaves no time for chatting

This is based entirely off of my 84e experiences (NA) and the KGL server in MM

If you've read down to here, thank you, you've used a lot of your time on a, in the whole scheme of things, unimportant issue :smile:
 
I find that when I'm playing MM (Or any mod using the same melee system.); even when I'm losing I'm having a good time, because I know the lad that just destroyed what was once my face did so through skill, rather than spamming and abusing similar looking animations.

(I think my vote is obvious.)

Thats it!
Melee in NW is not as lucky as the shooting, but luckier as in MM, where it was nicer cause the fights were faster and the better guy won.
Now its not sad that the better guy will win a duel.
 
Well heres my 2 cents:

-Muskets should be slower and 4 directional attacks. Overheads certainly shouldn't be thrusts (anyone who played With Fire and Sword would have known that idea was disasterous... :roll:)

-Infantry swords should be slightly faster and do more slashing dmg. To keep swords from being hands down better add a nice liddle (and quite rare) knockdown chance to muskets to reinact the brutish way in which they would be used vs a swordmans probably more finesse styled fighting.

-Light cavalry sabres should do less thrust dmg than infantry swords and more slashing dmg.

-Heavy cavalry swords should be noticeably slower and the highest dmg weapons in game (try swinging those things fast and hard 5 times in a row without starting to slow down!)

-Use common sense for other more exotic weapons (aka spontoons are faster and do crappy swing dmg but more thrust dmg than muskets. Small swords are faster and less dmging than infantry swords etc.)

I never got my head around the reasons for tearing apart Mount&Blades perfectly functional combat system in MM/NW. Native just had too much flingable junk, overly accurate bows/crossbows and some overpowered 2 handers, but if you put some thought and time into the weapon stats you can create a perfect combat system where a skilled player is rewarded instead of a ballerina or a lucky dude because weird things happen with muskets. The system I explained here works perfectly in the RISK mod, hell even the none skilled players have nothing but good things to say about it. :shock: Anyways it would be nice to see something like that put into place in NW.

In short...NW and MMs musket combat both suck. Go for a more Native styled approach!
 
Simple NW.

Imo MM was only spinning/ballerina and blocking/chambering orgy, now in NW a charge is a fierce but short, bloody fight. And in a battle not allways the better guy wins, sometimes the lucky one. Like in rl. Maybe the NW system could need more fine adjustments, but I can and have to live with this system!
 
To be honest, I would only change a few things. Maybe get rid of the few bugs there are, possibly change some things that are sometimes random, but all in all I really like the new melee system. It just needs some slight fixing. I don't think that too much should be changed, since I personally am annoyed by having to adjust my melee all the time.
 
Megaberna said:
There are different types of combat...it is up for the players to choose which mellee system works best with them :wink:
True. It's just I don't like constant change. I was good at MM melee, but now I've gotten used to NW and would not like it too much if it were changed again. :razz:
 
And in a battle not allways the better guy wins, sometimes the lucky one. Like in rl. Maybe the NW system could need more fine adjustments, but I can and have to live with this system!
+1
 
sirwho said:
Well heres my 2 cents:

-Muskets should be slower and 4 directional attacks. Overheads certainly shouldn't be thrusts (anyone who played With Fire and Sword would have known that idea was disasterous... :roll:)

-Infantry swords should be slightly faster and do more slashing dmg. To keep swords from being hands down better add a nice liddle (and quite rare) knockdown chance to muskets to reinact the brutish way in which they would be used vs a swordmans probably more finesse styled fighting.

-Light cavalry sabres should do less thrust dmg than infantry swords and more slashing dmg.

-Heavy cavalry swords should be noticeably slower and the highest dmg weapons in game (try swinging those things fast and hard 5 times in a row without starting to slow down!)

-Use common sense for other more exotic weapons (aka spontoons are faster and do crappy swing dmg but more thrust dmg than muskets. Small swords are faster and less dmging than infantry swords etc.)

I never got my head around the reasons for tearing apart Mount&Blades perfectly functional combat system in MM/NW. Native just had too much flingable junk, overly accurate bows/crossbows and some overpowered 2 handers, but if you put some thought and time into the weapon stats you can create a perfect combat system where a skilled player is rewarded instead of a ballerina or a lucky dude because weird things happen with muskets. The system I explained here works perfectly in the RISK mod, hell even the none skilled players have nothing but good things to say about it. :shock: Anyways it would be nice to see something like that put into place in NW.

In short...NW and MMs musket combat both suck. Go for a more Native styled approach!

Muskets shouldn't really have 4 attack directions, fewer attack-directions but with more emphasis and depth in those attack directions, 4 shallow attack directions < 2 deep ones.

Swords shouldn't do more damage or they will be far supperior to bayonets in all situations. At the moment Swords are better 1v1 and bayonets are better in groupfighting. So overall they are rather balanced.

Bayonet fighting =/= poor man's sword fighting. The MM and to a degree the NW bayonets have their own unique ways of fighting, and that unique way is what makes them interesting as weapons, so going down the native path is certainly a wrong turn!


Dragonlordc1888 said:
Simple NW.

Imo MM was only spinning/ballerina and blocking/chambering orgy, now in NW a charge is a fierce but short, bloody fight. And in a battle not allways the better guy wins, sometimes the lucky one. Like in rl. Maybe the NW system could need more fine adjustments, but I can and have to live with this system!

Fair enough, spinning was hardly something that brilliant, but chambering and blocking can hardly be called bad things. Hell, chambering and the meta-game surrounding it was what made bayonet fighting so interesting.

Luck is a bad. To demostrate why; imagine if all melee was dependant on die rolls. 100% luck based, and no-one would like it. The competitive side, well, all sides of the game, need skillbased gameplay.
 
Nevertheless, am i the only one who finds having to adjust to the constant melee changes annoying?!?!
 
- Reduced the length of the bayonet slightly.
- Increased the length of all cavalry swords.
- Made the readying animation for the upper stab slower.
- Upper stab chamber attacks are now not blockable anymore just like the lower stab.
- People getting bumped by a horse now stay on the ground a bit longer before getting up.
- Removed the damage a rider would receive when his horse dies.
- Horses don’t rear up anymore when hit by a bayonet to their front.
- Reduced the amount of bullets and damage of the Musketoon.

Happy?  :eek:
 
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