NW melee and MM melee : Poll

NW or MM melee?

  • NW

    Votes: 171 45.6%
  • MM

    Votes: 204 54.4%

  • Total voters
    375

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James Stewart said:
Have you even played MM?

Well, I've played MM. A lot of MM. And all I really remember was Oreo spinning-crouch-jumping into people's animation to stab them from inside. That was the high point of the combat system there.

That and people whining endlessly about lancers, because they could sometimes outrange the bayonet. It was even worse than people complaining about dragoons today. Should have learned how to crouch-spin-jump-stab, silly fools.

There's lots of bad things about NW. The wonky hit boxes. How imprecise the strikes seem to be because of that. Sword animations taking a really long time to load and register. How important latency has become for determining the winner of an attack. The awful cluttered maps with invisible obstacles everywhere.

But every time someone says "hey, remember MM?" I close my eyes and see Oreo jump-crouch-spin over a wall and into somebody's animation, then stab the guy from the inside. And that clinches the argument.

It broke immersion. It made the game frustrating. Lots of bad/casual players now, and low skill ceiling, matter less to me. Napoleonic wars was about massed action, it sure as hell wasn't about one guy killing the entire team because he's spinning too fast to hit. And before you get all passive-aggressive about how good players should block and spinning was never a problem, blocking was easy, it's the landing the hits before the spinner killed the rest of the team that was hard.

Even pub play should not come down to 1:1 all the time.
 
Pelgrane said:
Well, I've played MM. A lot of MM. And all I really remember was Oreo spinning-crouch-jumping into people's animation to stab them from inside. That was the high point of the combat system there.

That and people whining endlessly about lancers, because they could sometimes outrange the bayonet. It was even worse than people complaining about dragoons today. Should have learned how to crouch-spin-jump-stab, silly fools.

There's lots of bad things about NW. The wonky hit boxes. How imprecise the strikes seem to be because of that. Sword animations taking a really long time to load and register. How important latency has become for determining the winner of an attack. The awful cluttered maps with invisible obstacles everywhere.

But every time someone says "hey, remember MM?" I close my eyes and see Oreo jump-crouch-spin over a wall and into somebody's animation, then stab the guy from the inside. And that clinches the argument.

It broke immersion. It made the game frustrating. Lots of bad/casual players now, and low skill ceiling, matter less to me. Napoleonic wars was about massed action, it sure as hell wasn't about one guy killing the entire team because he's spinning too fast to hit. And before you get all passive-aggressive about how good players should block and spinning was never a problem, blocking was easy, it's the landing the hits before the spinner killed the rest of the team that was hard.

Even pub play should not come down to 1:1 all the time.

So one thing (That seems to have been easily fixed, mind you.) ruined all of MM for you? A single player, who had a ping of 10, who would abuse both the ability to spin, leap, and the fact that no one could block his chambers?

Further, I believe people have been using the phrase 'gameplay over realism' for some time now. If the game comes down to a matter of numbers, it lacks skill and, quite frankly, fun. If I wanted to win via superior numbers, I'd go play some RTS.
 
TheBoberton said:
So one thing (That seems to have been easily fixed, mind you.) ruined all of MM for you? A single player, who had a ping of 10, who would abuse both the ability to spin, leap, and the fact that no one could block his chambers?

It wasn't just him, he was just the most spectacular about it, so I used him as an example. I enjoyed MM, but not enough to be sure I want to ditch NW to return to that system.

I completely realise it's been fixed in NW. My real quibble is what exactly do people mean when they say "let's go back to MM" - Hekko's proposed fixes would unfix this problem in a breath, for example. What would you suggest? Keep in mind people play other classes too.

Further, I believe people have been using the phrase 'gameplay over realism' for some time now. If the game comes down to a matter of numbers, it lacks skill and, quite frankly, fun. If I wanted to win via superior numbers, I'd go play some RTS.

Since all sides start near-balanced it can't just be a matter of numbers, and there's still enough variation in performance to affect the outcome. This is a soundbite strawman argument. You may beat the strawman up as much as you wish, it doesn't make it more relevant. If one team is stupid and the other team brought enough bodies to overwhelm them without getting shot first or dying to massive amounts of TKs, kudos to them. You don't want to punish this kind of cooperation, do you?

Gameplay over realism is all fine and good, but at some point things break immersion and start dominating the metagame something awful. You bring back spinning (turning speed) to make combat with bayonets have a higher skill ceiling, you're going to affect the rest of the game.

As to your last point, if I wanted to feel like an invincible spinning machine, I'd play God or War or Soul Calibur. Makes about as much sense.
 
Pelgrane said:
It wasn't just him, he was just the most spectacular about it, so I used him as an example. I enjoyed MM, but not enough to be sure I want to ditch NW to return to that system.

I completely realise it's been fixed in NW. My real quibble is what exactly do people mean when they say "let's go back to MM" - Hekko's proposed fixes would unfix this problem in a breath, for example. What would you suggest? Keep in mind people play other classes too.

I believe what Hekko is suggesting is to return melee to what it was in MM. This would, indirectly, bring cavalry back up to what they were, without being overpowered in any sense. This does not, however, mean that he is suggesting bringing jump-crouching back, nor the ability to spin as it was.

Pelgrane said:
Since all sides start near-balanced it can't just be a matter of numbers, and there's still enough variation in performance to affect the outcome. This is a soundbite strawman argument. You may beat the strawman up as much as you wish, it doesn't make it more relevant. If one team is stupid and the other team brought enough bodies to overwhelm them without getting shot first or dying to massive amounts of TKs, kudos to them. You don't want to punish this kind of cooperation, do you?

If having a larger number of people means you instantly win any melee, cooperation isn't required. And you have to bear in mind that firearms are indeed present in this DLC, so you have to take into account that any difference in numbers could be the result of muskets, rifles, and the musketoon. (I hear Russian dragoons wreak havoc upon the other team.)


Pelgrane said:
Gameplay over realism is all fine and good, but at some point things break immersion and start dominating the metagame something awful. You bring back spinning (turning speed) to make combat with bayonets have a higher skill ceiling, you're going to affect the rest of the game.

As to your last point, if I wanted to feel like an invincible spinning machine, I'd play God or War or Soul Calibur. Makes about as much sense.

I believe it's been stated that spinning is actually very easy to counter. You just block down. Hold right mouse button, and usually the spinner is stuck, unless he knows how to properly utilize overhead attacks. Spinners look absurd, but they are, in reality, simply like spammers. Unless they can fight using other methods, they are very easy to dispatch.

Further, seeing a man lift his musket above his head to stab forward with it breaks my immersion, because I know that (Excluding anti-cavalry drills (Which were rarely used, because of the established square formations)) the overhead attack is more reminiscent of the attacks of pikes in days long gone.
 
Pelgrane said:
TheBoberton said:
So one thing (That seems to have been easily fixed, mind you.) ruined all of MM for you? A single player, who had a ping of 10, who would abuse both the ability to spin, leap, and the fact that no one could block his chambers?

It wasn't just him, he was just the most spectacular about it, so I used him as an example. I enjoyed MM, but not enough to be sure I want to ditch NW to return to that system.

I completely realise it's been fixed in NW. My real quibble is what exactly do people mean when they say "let's go back to MM" - Hekko's proposed fixes would unfix this problem in a breath, for example. What would you suggest? Keep in mind people play other classes too.

The thing is, at the moment MM despite it's flaws was better than NW melee is at the moment. Because while MM had cosmetic flaws they were not as major as the gameplay flaws of NW.

Pelgrane said:
Further, I believe people have been using the phrase 'gameplay over realism' for some time now. If the game comes down to a matter of numbers, it lacks skill and, quite frankly, fun. If I wanted to win via superior numbers, I'd go play some RTS.

Since all sides start near-balanced it can't just be a matter of numbers, and there's still enough variation in performance to affect the outcome. This is a soundbite strawman argument. You may beat the strawman up as much as you wish, it doesn't make it more relevant. If one team is stupid and the other team brought enough bodies to overwhelm them without getting shot first or dying to massive amounts of TKs, kudos to them. You don't want to punish this kind of cooperation, do you?

Gameplay over realism is all fine and good, but at some point things break immersion and start dominating the metagame something awful. You bring back spinning (turning speed) to make combat with bayonets have a higher skill ceiling, you're going to affect the rest of the game.

As to your last point, if I wanted to feel like an invincible spinning machine, I'd play God or War or Soul Calibur. Makes about as much sense.

The ideal is of course to have both the cosmetic side and the gameplay side sorted, but at the moment I think the lack of gameplay to be alot more detracting than the lack of realism!
 
TheBoberton said:
I believe what Hekko is suggesting is to return melee to what it was in MM. This would, indirectly, bring cavalry back up to what they were, without being overpowered in any sense. This does not, however, mean that he is suggesting bringing jump-crouching back, nor the ability to spin as it was.

He's suggesting tripling the turning speed (half of what it used to be). That would bring back spinning. Depending on ping you'd spin 360 degrees instead of two full revolutions, big whoop.

Cavalry was simply faster and had better maneouvre. Also, lances were useful. Simply bringing the turning speed up won't help that at all, since this seems to be now about a redesign and not a flat revert. You'd have to fix cavalry separately.

If having a larger number of people means you instantly win any melee, cooperation isn't required. And you have to bear in mind that firearms are indeed present in this DLC, so you have to take into account that any difference in numbers could be the result of muskets, rifles, and the musketoon. (I hear Russian dragoons wreak havoc upon the other team.)

Really? I hear the most instant-est way to win melee in NW is to have LittleGuy on your team and have him actually stabbing people instead of goofing off.

Anyone competent can rack up kills something crazy on NW without prolonging the torture. Anyone good, as you yourself said, can really go to town. It's not like NW made it mob=win, it just gave the mob a bit of a chance.

Musketoons: yes, sure. They could fix the pellet spread a little. What has that got to do with spinning?

I believe it's been stated that spinning is actually very easy to counter. You just block down. Hold right mouse button, and usually the spinner is stuck, unless he knows how to properly utilize overhead attacks. Spinners look absurd, but they are, in reality, simply like spammers. Unless they can fight using other methods, they are very easy to dispatch.

Spinners are awesome because they require you to keep the downblock on. One on one, yeah, they need to do some other things instead/also (thump thump thump stab). But they wade into a group, start spinning, and if anyone releases their downblock and tries to get them, there's a great chance of that brave soul going to meet the computer gods, because he can't reliably guess where the hitbox is going to be the next moment. Or the bayonet tip of the opponent.

You're punishing people for bunching up. In a Napoleonic-setting game. Think about it.

Further, seeing a man lift his musket above his head to stab forward with it breaks my immersion, because I know that (Excluding anti-cavalry drills (Which were rarely used, because of the established square formations)) the overhead attack is more reminiscent of the attacks of pikes in days long gone.

So this was a method people stopped using maybe somewhere in the mid-18th c. and still practiced long after in an academic sense (which is fine, since bayonets were not exactly the most common/effective murder tool during their entire history of use)...

...so fine, we ditch it. I hate the animation anyway and the blocks for it too. Instead we bring back spinning...

...never used by masses of men, ever. Never practiced in training because of that, ever.

I can understand that you want a good dueling system. NW has a terrible dueling system. But this isn't a game about duels, I should hope, and trying to rig the meta to come down to continuous 1v1 seems a bit mean to everyone else who bought and plays this game.
 
Pelgrane said:
So this was a method people stopped using maybe somewhere in the mid-18th c. and still practiced long after in an academic sense (which is fine, since bayonets were not exactly the most common/effective murder tool during their entire history of use)...

...so fine, we ditch it. I hate the animation anyway and the blocks for it too. Instead we bring back spinning...

...never used by masses of men, ever. Never practiced in training because of that, ever.

Jumping was never used by masses of men, ever. Never practiced in training because of that, ever. Clearly we should get rid of that too.

Do you see how absurd the reasoning is here? Simply because a small group of people abuse the melee system; it needs to be reduced to a sub-par system of spamming and backtracking?

Pelgrane said:
I can understand that you want a good dueling system. NW has a terrible dueling system. But this isn't a game about duels, I should hope, and trying to rig the meta to come down to continuous 1v1 seems a bit mean to everyone else who bought and plays this game.

Honestly, I don't give a damn about duels. What I want is a melee system where skill carries the day, rather than spamming. (And yes, players like Littleguy can be spammed in NW)
As it is, a group of eight players can spam against a group of four, and win quite often, despite the fact that the four may be more skilled in melee.

Pelgrane said:
Musketoons: yes, sure. They could fix the pellet spread a little. What has that got to do with spinning?

Nothing, actually. It has to do with you looking beyond your precious little bubble of 'anti-spinner land', and looking to what actually works in-game.

Spinning does, as of the moment, still work, by the way.

Edit: Almost forgot to quote that last part, about the musketoons.
 
TheBoberton said:
Jumping was never used by masses of men, ever. Never practiced in training because of that, ever. Clearly we should get rid of that too.

Do you see how absurd the reasoning is here? Simply because a small group of people abuse the melee system; it needs to be reduced to a sub-par system of spamming and backtracking?

You forget, Mr. Boberton, that I only want Realism when I want it, and all other realism can **** off. Any non-realism can **** off too, except when I want the non-realism to be there. Then it can stay, and anyone that didn't suck at the game has to follow suit with what I want, even when it ends up in a ridiculous system.
 
TheBoberton said:
Jumping was never used by masses of men, ever. Never practiced in training because of that, ever. Clearly we should get rid of that too.

You know what? I'd get rid of jumping. As long as there was some other way of getting over the obstacles. There isn't, so jumping can stay. You already can't attack while jumping, though, so in a sense they got rid of it.

But since we're talking about getting rid of overhead stabs, might as well strip it down all the way and make things simple. Do you need an overhead insta-death? No. Spinning? No. Jump-attack? No. In a way I really appreciate MM being simple like that. If you could somehow keep the basic model without adding in the possibility of abuse, then we'd be seriously talking.

Do you see how absurd the reasoning is here? Simply because a small group of people abuse the melee system; it needs to be reduced to a sub-par system of spamming and backtracking?

...Thomas, that's just...oh come on. SMALL group of people? How about "near everyone who didn't die in the first stab, until only the survivors were left, and then the survivors settled into duel mode where spinning wasn't as effective"?

And of course, it's not just spamming and backtracking now. It's backtracking, spamming, and turning on the spot while dragging the stab damage in a circular arc. :razz:

So here's my question: do we really need a huge turning speed increase to make chambers more reliable? Would Hekko be happy if he could chamber? Would these threads finally stop?

As it is, a group of eight players can spam against a group of four, and win quite often, despite the fact that the four may be more skilled in melee.

You're talking about skill overcoming 2:1 advantage (not that it can't be done, people often rip through entire lines if they're slow to react). How did you get yourself into such a bad position would be my question.
 
Pelgrane said:
TheBoberton said:
Jumping was never used by masses of men, ever. Never practiced in training because of that, ever. Clearly we should get rid of that too.

You know what? I'd get rid of jumping. As long as there was some other way of getting over the obstacles. There isn't, so jumping can stay. You already can't attack while jumping, though, so in a sense they got rid of it.

But since we're talking about getting rid of overhead stabs, might as well strip it down all the way and make things simple. Do you need an overhead insta-death? No. Spinning? No. Jump-attack? No. In a way I really appreciate MM being simple like that. If you could somehow keep the basic model without adding in the possibility of abuse, then we'd be seriously talking.

Do you see how absurd the reasoning is here? Simply because a small group of people abuse the melee system; it needs to be reduced to a sub-par system of spamming and backtracking?

...Thomas, that's just...oh come on. SMALL group of people? How about "near everyone who didn't die in the first stab, until only the survivors were left, and then the survivors settled into duel mode where spinning wasn't as effective"?

And of course, it's not just spamming and backtracking now. It's backtracking, spamming, and turning on the spot while dragging the stab damage in a circular arc. :razz:

So here's my question: do we really need a huge turning speed increase to make chambers more reliable? Would Hekko be happy if he could chamber? Would these threads finally stop?

As it is, a group of eight players can spam against a group of four, and win quite often, despite the fact that the four may be more skilled in melee.

You're talking about skill overcoming 2:1 advantage (not that it can't be done, people often rip through entire lines if they're slow to react). How did you get yourself into such a bad position would be my question.

...Yes. Small. No one except a small group of people went out of their way to actually make the system look ridiculous, and even a smaller number could actually kill people with it - granted the people that were fighting weren't terrible at the game.

Well i'll tell you how I got myself into such a situation, It's called... Well, trolling aside it's called playing the game. This happens all the time.
 
After months of playing NW, I much prefer the NW. I went back to try MM again (So many memories) and I found it to be clunky. I don't know why, it just felt that way.
 
DrTaco said:
You forget, Mr. Boberton, that I only want Realism when I want it, and all other realism can **** off. Any non-realism can **** off too, except when I want the non-realism to be there. Then it can stay, and anyone that didn't suck at the game has to follow suit with what I want, even when it ends up in a ridiculous system.

Thomas brought back the realism argument, so we were playing the realism argument. I only said it breaks immersion, which is beyond a strict realism argument and into goblins on giant spiders territory.

...Yes. Small. No one except a small group of people went out of their way to actually make the system look ridiculous, and even a smaller number could actually kill people with it - granted the people that were fighting weren't terrible at the game.

Well i'll tell you how I got myself into such a situation, It's called... Well, trolling aside it's called playing the game. This happens all the time.

On the first point, respectfully disagree on the question of widespread use. On the second point, while I sympathise (I have no patience whatsoever and always try to go into combat), I also realise that you should play the game differently. Then you won't get outnumbered a million to one, considering everyone started with the same numbers.

Is situational awareness not a basic skill players should have?
 
Spinners are awesome because they require you to keep the downblock on. One on one, yeah, they need to do some other things instead/also (thump thump thump stab). But they wade into a group, start spinning, and if anyone releases their downblock and tries to get them, there's a great chance of that brave soul going to meet the computer gods, because he can't reliably guess where the hitbox is going to be the next moment. Or the bayonet tip of the opponent.

You're punishing people for bunching up. In a Napoleonic-setting game. Think about it.

Absolute nonsense Mister Pelgrane. The old overhead was non lethal, so in a situation like this you simply switch to overhead, get the stun, and stab.

In actual fact, NW promotes mass TK'ing when one guy is fighting the group, wheras anyone who had a clue how to play MM would generally avoid such TK's
 
Pelgrane said:
On the first point, respectfully disagree on the question of widespread use. On the second point, while I sympathise (I have no patience whatsoever and always try to go into combat), I also realise that you should play the game differently. Then you won't get outnumbered a million to one, considering everyone started with the same numbers.

Is situational awareness not a basic skill players should have?

In other words:
'I don't want you to punish a certain type of gameplay*, however I do want to punish another, because they need to play differently.'

Let me know if I've gotten any of this wrong here.

[* I don't see how making the individual more of a potent force would punish teamplay, considering that it would require you to actually work together, rather than just be near each other and spam. But hey, maybe I'm just too dull to see the logic here.]
 
Pelgrane said:
Is situational awareness not a basic skill players should have?

Why yes, it is! Suprisingly, since release, hardly anyone who has played NW since release has learned it, mind you a basic skill. And as a result, left me in a three on one shootout. Which I lose, on account of them having more guns and more bayonets, but not skill, since the skill of blocking is still a half legend to them.
 
DrTaco said:
Pelgrane said:
Is situational awareness not a basic skill players should have?

Why yes, it is! Suprisingly, since release, hardly anyone who has played NW since release has learned it, mind you a basic skill. And as a result, left me in a three on one shootout. Which I lose, on account of them having more guns and more bayonets, but not skill, since the skill of blocking is still a half legend to them.

Taco - do your teammates suck?

Because that's what I am getting out of this :mrgreen:  Which granted, is much more of a problem now since tonnes of new people started playing it. It doesn't seem to me that rolling back to MM would solve that problem either.

@Thomas: [* I don't see how making the individual more of a potent force would punish teamplay, considering that it would require you to actually work together, rather than just be near each other and spam. But hey, maybe I'm just too dull to see the logic here.]

How much teamwork was there in MM? Cav could sometimes try to do it with the whole distract and swoop in thing. Inf...I don't know, it was pretty awful to watch MM too. Teamkills everywhere, lone wolves wading through entire mobs.

Basically you're hoping skill levels will universally go up so that an intelligent metagame can develop, for which MM would be more suited (let's accept that for now) than NW. I think the problem here is expecting skill levels to universally go up until an intelligent metagame can develop.  :razz:

Given the level of players that are actually around, why is MM a better system in general when they can't really even make an impact?
 
Pelgrane said:
How much teamwork was there in MM? Cav could sometimes try to do it with the whole distract and swoop in thing. Inf...I don't know, it was pretty awful to watch MM too. Teamkills everywhere, lone wolves wading through entire mobs.

I don't know. Perhaps I didn't play MM enough, but I never witnessed as many teamkills as I do when playing NW. I imagine it had to do with the fact that half the bayonet's attacks couldn't injure teammates unless you were facing away from them.

Pelgrane said:
Basically you're hoping skill levels will universally go up so that an intelligent metagame can develop, for which MM would be more suited (let's accept that for now) than NW. I think the problem here is expecting skill levels to universally go up until an intelligent metagame can develop.  :razz:

The problem here is having a system that accommodates a lower skill level. With the current system, players can sit back and spam, without knowing that they could get 'better', and learn to melee properly. Back in MM, if you had no idea what you were doing, and couldn't block, you died... very quickly. From there, you either got better, via practice, or you kept dying. It's actually rather disappointing that the former MM community (Those who do, not all of you lads) would accept a system that doesn't challenge anyone.

Pelgrane said:
Given the level of players that are actually around, why is MM a better system in general when they can't really even make an impact?

Because it encourages the average player to get better, until they can make an impact. (Coming from someone who once spammed to stay alive - Had I only played NW, I'd have never known that I should practice, and as a result, get better.)
 
Well then look at it this way - In MM, it wasn't easy to spam off a couple blocks. Actually it was harder to never hit the block button, and what came from this? People actually got better. Well if they got better they would improve on certain basic skills, (awareness) and actually know what blocking as. However, since this melee system allows me to rip through entire servers by just bashing my face against whatever key I have attack binded to, I never really learned anything. As a result, anyone who did marginally OK in MM can now just toss say, awareness and blocking, into the wind. There are also those who found Warband through Napoleonic Wars. Now this is simple, people who bought the game, to be blunt, suck. And they will suck until obviously, they get better. If we have a system (Which a fair majority of us are teetering on the verge of calling it broken) that doesn't encourage blocking or looking to the right or left of you, you won't get better.

This DLC or whatever you want to call it was released around April 19th. Is has been around 2 months since then, and I don't notice any real change. Now that can just be the point that the older people simply dropped the game and don't play it (Which isn't a good thing either) or no one has learned a thing.
 
DrTaco said:
Well then look at it this way - In MM, it wasn't easy to spam off a couple blocks. Actually it was harder to never hit the block button, and what came from this? People actually got better. Well if they got better they would improve on certain basic skills, (awareness) and actually know what blocking as. However, since this melee system allows me to rip through entire servers by just bashing my face against whatever key I have attack binded to, I never really learned anything. As a result, anyone who did marginally OK in MM can now just toss say, awareness and blocking, into the wind. There are also those who found Warband through Napoleonic Wars. Now this is simple, people who bought the game, to be blunt, suck. And they will suck until obviously, they get better. If we have a system (Which a fair majority of us are teetering on the verge of calling it broken) that doesn't encourage blocking or looking to the right or left of you, you won't get better.

This DLC or whatever you want to call it was released around April 19th. Is has been around 2 months since then, and I don't notice any real change. Now that can just be the point that the older people simply dropped the game and don't play it (Which isn't a good thing either) or no one has learned a thing.

I don't know, to be honest. There's a lot of players with no awareness and no blocking, and that makes experienced players lazy...yeah I get that. It's also a larger community than MM used to be. It could be just the numbers talking, so that even if you do really well, you don't really stand out and there's no need to try to match up to you as long as they're training against someone else who is just as bad the entire time.

Though - certain things I could take from MM. Less lethality. Make the bayonet a little less universally good. It was already too good to really be called balanced in MM, so when they made it better in NW I was unpleasantly surprised. But I also felt that timing was much more predictable with MM. You knew where and when your strike would land, more or less. Here I sometimes just shrug and carry on. Devs say nothing really changed but obviously something's different just the same. This is not only bayonets, it's even more evident with swords.

But - I just also vividly remember the bad parts of MM. Spinning. Jump-spinning. Camping (camping camping camping). Lots of "this was a duel!" nonsense. Teamkills. Camping. There was a much smaller and by necessity more engaged community, but it was an exceptionally opinionated one, to the point of constant draining negativity. The whining per capita was astronomical. It was basically made of people like me and I don't always like people like me.

I would want to play NW with some MM brought back, but I wouldn't want to play MM as it was again. So I think I will disengage here. You can count me as tentatively on your side provided this is a 'how to make NW better' thread and not "MM was all rose water and happy rainbows' thread.

 
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