Native Completed North American Native League [NANL]

[ClockWise]

No. This is horrible. Preset maps is one of the best things that happened to this community. With choosing maps you had clans that were really, really good at one map and they'd play that map and the other clan would play their own map that they were really, really good at and you'd have a boring drawn out match. This was most evident with Wappaw and Random Plains. TMW abused this system in NASTE Season 1 for Port Assault and we managed to take second(I think?) place without deserving it. It was stupid.

I shall, now and forever, hate with a passion preset maps. It takes a lot of the fun out of the game, imo. Sure, we couldn't win to save our lives on Random Plains, but that forced us to try to be unbeatable on other maps. And eventually we did begin to win on random plains.

In a strange kind of way, for me, having those maps you dread is almost fun. Not knowing whats going to be picked is fun. Being able to adjust your pick on the fly is fun. Having everything set in stone way before the match is boring.

 

[Catholic]

Sorry for the mix up and I do remember the frustration it was to play Random plains but it was an exception due to the unbalance issues.

Was it really? I mean, imagine if suddenly we absolutely dominated Sandiboush. Imagine that was our best map, and although we could hold our own on the other maps, we chose that one map every single time because we were the best at it.

Not only is the fact that playing that one map every single time is boring, but also we would force every other team to fight to a third map, since Sandiboush is the only map we'd really train and have practice on. Thus, even though let's say AE was better than us all-around, we'd still force them to a third map just because we happen to be really good at that one map.

Presets mean that you actually have to be good all-around, and not just focus on all cav and be good at Plains or have good infantry-archer cohesion and be good at Nord Town.

 

[Gelden]

The 1500g v 1000g debate is old hat at this point. The only people who support 1500g at this point are fringe and the bulk of the community understands and sees the greater faction balance with 1000g. The cav point Gelden likes to make is still debatable but the strong performance of cav in BIT seems to work against his favor.

Either way, this argument is dead. It's gone, and for crying out loud I don't want anyone reviving it. The community is open to a 1250g tournament sometime in the future, and if anyone wants to put the effort into that after NANL or the tournament after that one then I don't think anyone would whine too much.

You are delusional.  There is still a huge chunk of the community that supports 1500g. wK has always supported it, as well as wappaw and BkS.  Even most GKs prefer 1500.

maps and map picks

I don't mind either.  Both force you to be diverse in your play styles (both closed and open maps) if you want to win.  Am I the only one who enjoyed the "duel for first map choice"?  Pin your best duellist against the other clans best, good stuff.

Random plains bla bla

I will never understand the hate random plains gets.

 

[Maynd]

For me it's a cultural thing, I don't like to walk when I lose my horse 
I will make a proper reply with my point of view later.

 

[ClockWise]

"duel for first map choice"?

bring this back, imo. I don't know why, but I always enjoyed it.

 

[KissMyAxe]

You are delusional.  There is still a huge chunk of the community that supports 1500g. wK has always supported it, as well as wappaw and BkS.  Even most GKs prefer 1500.

Funny you remembered the quasi-inactive BkS. Why wouldn't you also remember that they don't want to play with swamps and want infinite rerolls for random plains? Oh, and want to duel for the first map/faction pick. (and duel at the end of each round as well) Maybe we should all go back to the K-BOOB times when everybody BkS was happy?

I don't mind either.  Both force you to be diverse in your play styles (both closed and open maps) if you want to win.  Am I the only one who enjoyed the "duel for first map choice"?  Pin your best duellist against the other clans best, good stuff.

Yea, that would work well... in a dueling tournament.

 

[Zaffa]

Chosen vs Preset Maps

Problem with Chosen Maps
I'd say that neither system really works, atleast as they are now. Chosen maps have the obvious problem of people playing the same map over and over again. For BkS, this used to be Random Plains. For GK, it used to be Nord Town. For a lot of Euro clans, it used to be Village. The system was very unsatisfying because it caused the same maps to pretty much be played again and again.

Additionally, chosen maps hinders the implementation of new maps being added to the rotation. Question, does anyone believe that the newer custom maps that have been developed (ex. Snoop's Exile which is one of this week's preset maps), would have been played had the tournament not required it? Save for the one to two clans that like to pick maps that people often aren't accustomed to, most clans are going to stick with what they are familiar with (basically having nord town and random plains being played endlessly).

The unrestricted ability to choose maps overly limits the number of maps that are played and as stated by Eternal earlier, just leads to people trying to get really good at 1-2 maps.

Problem with Preset Maps
Although a preset map system is better for introducing variety and new maps to the scene (as well as preventing the same 2 maps from being played endlessly), it does in my opinion hinder the competitiveness of matches. While it is good for people to learn to play on more than just 2 maps, it is pretty ****ty to have a match against an exceptionally skilled team and have no control over map selection. People only have so much time to put into the day, and it is unavoidable that clans are going to be better at some maps than other. As things are, clans are forced to either have a complete mastery of all maps or simply pray to the gods of chance that their big match is on a map that they are familiar with. While even chosen maps offers the possibility that a map will be picked that you are unfamiliar with, the ability to pick the next map acts as a balance to this if you just get completely creamed on the first map.

When two of the top teams are facing each other, you want both parties to be at the top of their game. What you don't want is for the winner to be decided by random chance.

Proposed Solution
Under Review

 

[Zaffa]

"duel for first map choice"?

bring this back, imo. I don't know why, but I always enjoyed it.

Enjoyed it a lot myself.

 

[KissMyAxe]

Question, does anyone believe that the newer custom maps that have been developed (ex. Snoop's Exile which is one of this week's preset maps), would have been played had the tournament not required it?

You only need to look back as far as the previous tournament (BIT) to know the answer to that question. It's not even a question of believe: for a fact new maps have been played, and some have been played quite often: Open Plain, Verloren and Dry Valley.

 

[Zaffa]

Question, does anyone believe that the newer custom maps that have been developed (ex. Snoop's Exile which is one of this week's preset maps), would have been played had the tournament not required it?

You only need to look back as far as the previous tournament (BIT) to know the answer to that question. It's not even a question of believe: for a fact new maps have been played, and some have been played quite often: Open Plain, Verloren and Dry Valley.

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't Verloren and Dry Valley played initially because they were also part of the nation's cup? As for Open Plains, it allowed people to full cav rush in ways never before possible on random plains and involved very little strategy.

Outside of WK and Balion, I'd wonder how many would play some of Romans, mine, or others newer maps, especially with no nation's cup around the corner.

 

[MrNomNom]

"duel for first map choice"?

bring this back, imo. I don't know why, but I always enjoyed it.

christ, no way

 

[Catholic]

Problem with Preset Maps
Although a preset map system is better for introducing variety and new maps to the scene (as well as preventing the same 2 maps from being played endlessly), it does in my opinion hinder the competitiveness of matches. While it is good for people to learn to play on more than just 2 maps, it is pretty ****ty to have a match against an exceptionally skilled team and have no control over map selection. People only have so much time to put into the day, and it is unavoidable that clans are going to be better at some maps than other. As things are, clans are forced to either have a complete mastery of all maps or simply pray to the gods of chance that their big match is on a map that they are familiar with. While even chosen maps offers the possibility that a map will be picked that you are unfamiliar with, the ability to pick the next map acts as a balance to this if you just get completely creamed on the first map.

I liked the rest of your post and then I re-read this.

People only have so much time to put into the day,

Not a valid argument in any way, shape, or form. Of course time is an issue, if I didn't play Warband at all I wouldn't expect to succeed. That's a given.

As things are, clans are forced to either have a complete mastery of all maps or simply pray to the gods of chance that their big match is on a map that they are familiar with.

Or, you know, practice the preset maps. I've consistently tried to schedule practice matches to play the next preset map and get the feel for it before the actual match. And yes, you're supposed to try to have a mastery of all maps. That's the point. You're supposed to be a team that's the best at everything. That's how you know your team is actually the best, and not just good at one map.

I really, really admire your effort here Zaffa, and I damn well know you're actually trying to move the community forward instead of just complaining about something you don't like. However, I don't see your anti-preset map argument holding much water. Preset maps doesn't favor random chance.

Consider the following:

In the single elimination stage, assuming you're not in first place, you need to beat 3 opponents in order to win the tournament. Let's assume your clan is really, really good at one map (something that was favored with choosing maps).

There's a total of 6 maps, since each match has 2 maps.

Let's say there's 15 maps. That means each map has a 1/15th chance of being the one that your clan is REALLY good at. (1/15)^3(since you want your map played once) = 0.00029629629 = .03%.

Even if you want to forget the first two matches, and say you only want your 'good' map played in the finals...

1/15 + 1/15 = 13.3%.

The maths above is wrong, since if the first map is your favorite map the second calculation wouldn't come into effect. In any case, my point holds water. You're greatly overestimating the effect of random chance. Teams have to be good all-around in order to win the tournament if you're using a preset map system. Luck holds a very small part in this.

 

[ClockWise]

"duel for first map choice"?

bring this back, imo. I don't know why, but I always enjoyed it.

christ, no way

nom takes all duels for tmw, imo. its all on you.

 

[Mad_Dawg]

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't Verloren and Dry Valley played initially because they were also part of the nation's cup?

You're wrong.

As for Open Plains, it allowed people to full cav rush in ways never before possible on random plains and involved very little strategy.

You're wrong.

Outside of WK and Balion, I'd wonder how many would play some of Romans, mine, or others newer maps, especially with no nation's cup around the corner.

A number of them did.

 

[Zaffa]

As things are, clans are forced to either have a complete mastery of all maps or simply pray to the gods of chance that their big match is on a map that they are familiar with.

Or, you know, practice the preset maps. I've consistently tried to schedule practice matches to play the next preset map and get the feel for it before the actual match. And yes, you're supposed to try to have a mastery of all maps. That's the point. You're supposed to be a team that's the best at everything. That's how you know your team is actually the best, and not just good at one map.

Let's be realistic here though. Even in a chosen system you aren't going to win just by being good at 1-2 maps. With the way Warband functions and the way its maps are designed, the ability to play well on one map type (closed/mixed/open) generally allows you to play well on the equivalent map type. Though there are exceptions to this, it is highly unlikely that you are going to dominate on one map only and get **** on all the rest.

The problem that I am pointing towards is when you have teams of equal callabre playing each other on a map where one team is very familiar and the other isn't at all. While you have teams that may be amazing at most closed maps, they may absolutely suck at village. This can lead to a very lame situation where a team loses because they were forced to play the one map that the other team could stomp them at. The preset map system is completely chance based, and while teams have an opportunity to plan in advance, the lack of control is unsatisfying.

I don't see your anti-preset map argument holding much water. Preset maps doesn't favor random chance.

Consider the following:

In the single elimination stage, assuming you're not in first place, you need to beat 3 opponents in order to win the tournament. Let's assume your clan is really, really good at one map (something that was favored with choosing maps).

There's a total of 6 maps, since each match has 2 maps.

Let's say there's 15 maps. That means each map has a 1/15th chance of being the one that your clan is REALLY good at. (1/15)^3(since you want your map played once) = 0.00029629629 = .03%.

Even if you want to forget the first two matches, and say you only want your 'good' map played in the finals...

1/15 + 1/15 = 13.3%.

The maths above is wrong, since if the first map is your favorite map the second calculation wouldn't come into effect. In any case, my point holds water. You're greatly overestimating the effect of random chance. Teams have to be good all-around in order to win the tournament if you're using a preset map system. Luck holds a very small part in this.

You seem to be missing the point here. The problem is less with you not getting that map that you are "really good at" and more about getting the one that you are very unfamiliar with / unable to play effectively on. In this case, chance very much comes into play, particular in regards to what maps you end up playing against the more competitive opponents. The NA community needs to have a system that avoids these "cheap" wins where teams are forced to play the map they suck at against their biggest competitors while still promoting the type of diversity provided by preset maps.

Though a point could possibly be made suggesting that preset maps run the risk of over diluting the level of play between the different maps, this does not seem to be a problem at the present time, especially with the current tournament limiting the number of available maps for this reason.

 

[Zaffa]

As for Open Plains, it allowed people to full cav rush in ways never before possible on random plains and involved very little strategy.

You're wrong.

Um, no. Open Plains is greatly disliked by a large part of the NA community due to the most effective strategy being full cav rush. The main reason the map is picked is because it requires very little strategy and basically amounts to which team has better cav (and nothing else).

Outside of WK and Balion, I'd wonder how many would play some of Romans, mine, or others newer maps, especially with no nation's cup around the corner.

A number of them did.

One only has to look at the NA pickup parties to see the tendency for people to pick the same maps over and over again.

 

[Mad_Dawg]

As for Open Plains, it allowed people to full cav rush in ways never before possible on random plains and involved very little strategy.

You're wrong.

Um, no. Open Plains is greatly disliked by a large part of the NA community due to the most effective strategy being full cav rush. The main reason the map is picked is because it requires very little strategy and basically amounts to which team has better cav (and nothing else).

What the "community" likes isn't what you stated or were wrong about.  Watching the BIT finals nullifies the "all cav 100% win" argument.  Sorry.

Also was so blunt only because you asked.

Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Zaffa]

As for Open Plains, it allowed people to full cav rush in ways never before possible on random plains and involved very little strategy.

You're wrong.

Um, no. Open Plains is greatly disliked by a large part of the NA community due to the most effective strategy being full cav rush. The main reason the map is picked is because it requires very little strategy and basically amounts to which team has better cav (and nothing else).

What the "community" likes isn't what you stated or were wrong about.  Watching the BIT finals nullifies the "all cav 100% win" argument.  Sorry.

Are you honestly suggesting that Open Plains requires the level of strategy seen on maps such as Reveren Village? It is well established that "all cav" is the dominant strategy on that map save on the most limited of circumstances. I hardly think that Open Plains is even worth being considered competitive for said reason.

 

[Mad_Dawg]

As for Open Plains, it allowed people to full cav rush in ways never before possible on random plains and involved very little strategy.

You're wrong.

Um, no. Open Plains is greatly disliked by a large part of the NA community due to the most effective strategy being full cav rush. The main reason the map is picked is because it requires very little strategy and basically amounts to which team has better cav (and nothing else).

What the "community" likes isn't what you stated or were wrong about.  Watching the BIT finals nullifies the "all cav 100% win" argument.  Sorry.

Are you honestly suggesting that Open Plains requires the level of strategy seen on maps such as Reveren Village? It is well established that "all cav" is the dominant strategy on that map save on the most limited of circumstances.

Zaffa, you're being pretty dogmatic for someone who (no offense) was just on the mercenary pool.  How many times did you actually play Open Plains?  Did you watch the two BiT streams to get this info?

We chose it more times than not and won against all cav with a mixed setup many times. 

How are you just blanket statementing this when from the looks of it, your experience on it is limited?



As for the more "strategy" I'd say depending on your definition it requires more.  Why?  You're always exposed.  You have no hidden movements and you are almost always in danger of something.  Referencing the BiT finals, if you don't think strategy was a huge part of that first map I'd question your competitive interpretation skills.

 

[Catholic]

Um, no. Open Plains is greatly disliked by a large part of the NA community due to the most effective strategy being full cav rush. The main reason the map is picked is because it requires very little strategy and basically amounts to which team has better cav (and nothing else).

You mean it's disliked in pickup parties because of cav rush.

Which is true, because excellent teamwork, strategy and planning aren't possible in pickup parties. If you saw the wK vs. Balions opening match on Open Plains during BIT, Balions dominated using team cohesion, awareness, and a mixed class strategy. Not just then either. The way to consistently win Open Plains on competitive-level is a mixed composition, and especially since Kiss updated the map (though I'm not sure if it's been deployed anywhere).

Let's be realistic here though. Even in a chosen system you aren't going to win just by being good at 1-2 maps. With the way Warband functions and the way its maps are designed, the ability to play well on one map type (closed/mixed/open) generally allows you to play well on the equivalent map type. Though there are exceptions to this, it is highly unlikely that you are going to dominate on one map only and get **** on all the rest.

You can. If you choose first, you literally have to be good at 2 maps. Do you not comprehend how this is a problem? Yes, if you're really good at 2 maps you don't necessarily have to be bad at the rest, but the point stands that all a team has to practice is two maps. Now, you actually have to get off your ass and practice the preset maps. God forbid.

The problem that I am pointing towards is when you have teams of equal callabre playing each other on a map where one team is very familiar and the other isn't at all. While you have teams that may be amazing at most closed maps, they may absolutely suck at village. This can lead to a very lame situation where a team loses because they were forced to play the one map that the other team could stomp them at. The preset map system is completely chance based, and while teams have an opportunity to plan in advance, the lack of control is unsatisfying.

The other team could, you know, practice Village? Especially since preset maps are known in advance? If we go with your logic from your first point, then being good at one map in Closed means you should be pretty good at all of them, right? You're starting to contradict yourself.

while teams have an opportunity to plan in advance, the lack of control is unsatisfying.

Yeah, **** planning and practicing guys, the admins are taking away our right to control the maps we choose. 

You seem to be missing the point here. The problem is less with you not getting that map that you are "really good at" and more about getting the one that you are very unfamiliar with / unable to play effectively on. In this case, chance very much comes into play, particular in regards to what maps you end up playing against the more competitive opponents. The NA community needs to have a system that avoids these "cheap" wins where teams are forced to play the map they suck at against their biggest competitors while still promoting the type of diversity provided by preset maps.

The same exact maths applies to the map a team is really bad at. 13.3%. A 13.3% that wouldn't exist if a team actually practiced that map.