North Africa, Middle East and Minor Asia

正在查看此主题的用户

Cèsar de Quart 说:
Dogukan 说:
molashkre 说:
christians in anatolia should be represented with Lazs:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_people
yaay I'm a Laz!!! 

But I'd rather see Armenians and Greeks as priority...and thats how it is.

Yes, sadly enough there's no way to represent this kind of local ethnies.
there's always another way,but not here,sadly  :mad: :sad:
 
This is the overhauled Mamluks. It's important to have the Turkomans be available as a divergence earlier from the archer tree, rather than later. They are going to be unarmored, trashy but numerous horse archers. To give you an idea of proportions:

"Zahiri [may have been Sultan of 1468 - 1495?] accounts that the auxiliary contingents numbered 180,000 Turcomans, 20,000 Kurds, 93,000 Bedouin (29k from syria/palestine, 33k from egypt, 31k from Hijaz and Mesopotamia), and 35,000 Syro-Palestinians/Lebanese. Probably/certainly inflated numbers, and from a later period, but we can see how Turkomans (and I have heard kurds) formed such major contingents." That's obviously inflated numbers and from a time when the Mamluks had all of egypt, the levant, Syria, and parts of Mesopotamia but it still gives you an idea of how the Turkomans were perhaps the most numerous.

Proportions under Sultan Baibars (1260 to 1277): Royal mamluks rose to some 4,000, with 12,000 Ordinary Mamluks and an estimated 24,000 Halqa or non mamluks. This not including the number of non-regular auxiliaries (turks, kurds, and such).

I don't have numbers on hand for the Mamluks directly in our era, but I know that uniting Syria and Egypt was what allowed Saladin to field larger cavalry contingents than had ever been seen in the area for a long time.


MAMLUK CITY/VILLAGES:

1) Awamm Al-Mashriq: "Eastern (Muslim) Commoners"
Usual crappy city-folk, loosely defined as a militia with no armor, poor or no shields, and various sidearms.

2) Mutatawwi'a Infantry
Volunteer levy spearmen. No armor and/or little armor

2) Mutatawwi'a Archers
Volunteer levy bowmen. No armor.

2) Mutatawwi'a Spearmen
Volunteer levy spearmen. Little armor.

3) Fityan Al-Futuwwa (or just Fityan) Infantry
Urban brotherhood/"militia" infantry. Little armor.

3) Fityan Al-Futuwwa (or just Fityan) Archers
Urban brotherhood/"militia" archers. Little armor

4) Jund Al-Amir Infantry (pl. Ajnad Al-Umara Infantry):
Retinue of an amir. Mediumish armor

4) Jund Al-Amir Archers (pl. Ajnad Al-Umara Archers):
Retinue of an amir. Mediumish armor

4) Jund Al-Amir Spearmen (pl. Ajnad Al-Umara Spearmen):
Retinue of an amir. Mediumish armor.

Tier 1-2 quality) Turkomans
Unarmored Horse Archers

Tier 1-2 quality) Jund Al-Amir Faris (pl. Ajnad Al-Umara Fursan): Amir's soldiers/retainers
Light armor, shield, sword, spear.

Tier 2-3 quality) Jund Al-Halqa Faris (pl Ajnad Al-Halqa Fursan): Freeborne cavalryman
Intended to be the free Turkish and Kurdish and Arab cavalrymen, many of whom were ex-ayyubids maintained often by iqtas. Medium armor, shield, sword, lance.

MAMLUK CASTLE: In theory, I think Mamluks should be recruited from cities rather than fortresses, but this is just easier from a gameplay/balancing point of view.

1) Mamluk Al-Sighar Al-Amir (Pl. Mamalik Al-Sighar Al-Umara): Junior Mamluks of the Amirs
Lightly armored (if at all), horse archers.

2) Mamluk Al-Kibar Al-Amir (pl. Mamalik Al-Kibar Al-Umara): Senior Mamluks of the Amirs
Medium armored horse archers.

3) Mamluk Al-Sultaniya (pl. Mamalik Al-Sultaniya) - "Royal" Mamluks
Mamluks of the Royal household, army, corps, whatever. High end cavalry but not elite. Horse Archers.

4) Mamluk Al-Bahariyya (pl. Mamalik Al-Bahariyya) - "Elite Mamluk Regiment"
Elite Mamluks of the Sultan. Top end Mamluks. Horse Archers.
The Bahariyya and a smaller subset (Jamdariyya) were the elite mamluk regiments formed by the last (or at least pretty much last) Ayyubid Sultan Al-Salih. The Bahariyya in fact being the ones who usurped the sultanate of Egypt from the Ayyubids, and was the regiment of Baibars. They are remarked by David Nicolle as being the elite regiments of Al-Salih, continuining to exist as a model for the Mamluk Sultanate. In other words, they are the top notch mamluks.

Just a note: Change "Fityan" In singular to Fata (Which is the singular of fityan). I'd go with "Fata Al-futuwwa" since it sounds cooler than "Fata Infantry", which comes across as "Fat infantry"  :mrgreen:

You also need to add this in for the Anatolian Ilkhanate, but give me a bit and I'll do a visual troop tree for it: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,116988.msg3594953.html#msg3594953

Here's the pictoral roster for the Anatolians. Note that Armenians should have only Armenian & generic troops from this list, and Turks should have only Turks & generic troops from this list. Include regular European mercenaries (especially xbow and knights) for either:

   
 
I won't.  :mrgreen: Everything is down pat, and now I'll just start equipping mongols, mamluks, anatolians, maghrebis, and mercenaries.
 
Little pack with a Moorish sword (rather North African), a variation of the adarga and the new version of the "berber" turban:
http://rapidshare.com/files/444458972/nouveau.brf
 
Sahran, are you familiar with David Ayalon's work about the Mamluks? I just read (today in the train, just by coincidence really) about the (often exaggerated) numbers of Royal Mamluks and those lots of other sorts, Halqa and Sayfiyya etc. etc. I have his articles "Studies on the Structure of the Mamluk Army" pts. I&II if you like...

Hell, I feel like a smug today running around with books and big glasses...  :shock:
 
The name doesn't ring a bell, what sort of info did you come across? I am not sure Othr would tolerate another revision  :mrgreen:, but it could help us get an idea of proportions in the army.
 
Well, since the Bahariyya refers to the corps set up at the end of the Ayyubid period (IIRC...?!), I have a hard time remembering if they can be something above the Royal Mamluks. The other elements are more or less well-handled. But admittedly I haven't studied those guys intensively yet. I'd suggest to re-name the two highest Mamluk troops as follows:
3. Al-Mushtarawat (or Ajlab or Julban), Mamluks of the ruling Sultan; these are in fact the most powerful according to David Ayalon, however, they were "just" the Mamluks bought and freed by the new Sultan and thus less experienced
4. Al-Mustakhdamun (singular would be Mustakhdam I guess), the Mamluks of the former Sultan

And we'll just leave out all the political stuff with those armies struggling for power. Thinking again, the suggestion I just made is also rubbish since it'd mean that Mamluks of the Amirs could become fresh Mamluks afterwards. Oh well....  :sad:

Edit: Let's leave out the fresh and change the third to: al-Mamalik as-Sayfiyya (Mamluks of the Sultan who were former Amir Mamluks, this would keep the tree consistent)
...and the last remains the Mustakhdamun, so both two units are Royal Mamluks.
 
This being a transitional period, where it can often seem that the Mamluks and Ayyubids co-existed at the same time (or were even the same dynasty), it's tricky business to chart out their roster. They originally did have the Mustakhdamun, but from what I had gathered I could only really find that unit attributed to the Post Ain Jalut period (after 1260). Whereas the Bahariyya had only just recently ousted the last Ayyubid Sultan and I seemed to read were inherited by the early Mamluks.

I seem to have stumbled across a Ayalon book you may have been talking about ( http://www.jstor.org/stable/608548?seq=2 ) and the trickiness here is determining if he's really talking about the post Baibars Bahri Mamluks, or the Mamluks of the pre Baibars (up until 1260's Ain Jalut).

Would the Mustakhdamun include the Bahri Regiment? Since the Mustakhdamun includes mamluks of former sultans (as well as disposed/dead amirs), and there were no Bahri Mamluk Sultans prior to the current one (whose name eludes me), and the Bahri would be a regiment of the former Ayyubid mamluk.
 
Cuthalion 说:
Well, since the Bahariyya refers to the corps set up at the end of the Ayyubid period (IIRC...?!), I have a hard time remembering if they can be something above the Royal Mamluks. The other elements are more or less well-handled. But admittedly I haven't studied those guys intensively yet. I'd suggest to re-name the two highest Mamluk troops as follows:
3. Al-Mushtarawat (or Ajlab or Julban), Mamluks of the ruling Sultan; these are in fact the most powerful according to David Ayalon, however, they were "just" the Mamluks bought and freed by the new Sultan and thus less experienced
4. Al-Mustakhdamun (singular would be Mustakhdam I guess), the Mamluks of the former Sultan

And we'll just leave out all the political stuff with those armies struggling for power. Thinking again, the suggestion I just made is also rubbish since it'd mean that Mamluks of the Amirs could become fresh Mamluks afterwards. Oh well....  :sad:

Edit: Let's leave out the fresh and change the third to: al-Mamalik as-Sayfiyya (Mamluks of the Sultan who were former Amir Mamluks, this would keep the tree consistent)
...and the last remains the Mustakhdamun, so both two units are Royal Mamluks.

Might you be referring to the Jamdairyah? It refers to the Sultan's personal guard.
 
I cannot remember having heard about a Jamdairyah (not -riyya?), so I guess not.  :neutral:

About the Bahri regiment; my sole knowledge about their structure comes from the two articles which I've sent you. I'm mainly dealing with them because I'm interested in fencing books and right now I'm tracking down those few Arabic kutub which are at least somehow comparable to the European martial arts books. And those few are usually Mamluk furusiyya manuals, so that's why I try to get some background knowledge when I find the time. Now the Bahri regiment was set up by the last Ayyubid Sultan (and caused his fall in the end), so I thought the term would refer to – if anything tangible – the whole corps and not a few elite Mamluks, left aside those being at the end of some sort of Mamluk career. I haven't found the time though to check my best friend David Nicolle or anything else about the early Mamluk times. After all we have Mamluks since the 10th century AD.  :???: But if the Mustakhdamun were introduced or rather formed at a later time, they cannot be in the game, that's right.

PS: One more useful blog: http://the-mamluk-faris.blogspot.com/
 
Cuthalion 说:
I cannot remember having heard about a Jamdairyah (not -riyya?), so I guess not.  :neutral:

About the Bahri regiment; my sole knowledge about their structure comes from the two articles which I've sent you. I'm mainly dealing with them because I'm interested in fencing books and right now I'm tracking down those few Arabic kutub which are at least somehow comparable to the European martial arts books. And those few are usually Mamluk furusiyya manuals, so that's why I try to get some background knowledge when I find the time. Now the Bahri regiment was set up by the last Ayyubid Sultan (and caused his fall in the end), so I thought the term would refer to – if anything tangible – the whole corps and not a few elite Mamluks, left aside those being at the end of some sort of Mamluk career. I haven't found the time though to check my best friend David Nicolle or anything else about the early Mamluk times. After all we have Mamluks since the 10th century AD.  :???: But if the Mustakhdamun were introduced or rather formed at a later time, they cannot be in the game, that's right.

PS: One more useful blog: http://the-mamluk-faris.blogspot.com/

As for the Jamdairyah, I found it here: http://books.google.com/books?id=ro8-XUbs4UAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+mamluks+1250-1517&source=bl&ots=uAYKz9NaSx&sig=co8hmvYKYy2DjEr-QHCsa-ncfs4&hl=en&ei=s59FTem3HcO78gbKsunkAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false Page 3. That's all I can find. May mean nothing.

Also, is the complete lack of heavy lancers fairly accurate? Seems like it's missing just that.
 
Hm...no idea then. Maybe some royal guard, but that's just a guess. Mamluk fencing manuals show them with lances, sabres (by the way, anyone familiar with when exactly sabres became more wide-spread? the fencing books are app. 8th/14th-9th/15th centuries), curved daggers, bow & arrows, long staffs and small round shields. They even give a nice parallel to the German fencing book I.33.
 
Cuthalion 说:
Hm...no idea then. Maybe some royal guard, but that's just a guess. Mamluk fencing manuals show them with lances, sabres (by the way, anyone familiar with when exactly sabres became more wide-spread? the fencing books are app. 8th/14th-9th/15th centuries), curved daggers, bow & arrows, long staffs and small round shields. They even give a nice parallel to the German fencing book I.33.

As far as I know, sabres (Or scimitars and the like) are generally of turkish origin. However, they tend to be "re-used", as suggested by this:
Yucel_37_ISAS.jpg

68_ISAS_pl.jpg
Apparently, the blade is kept, but the handle and guard tends to differ, possibly due to deterioration. Or perhaps even just the user's preference. Though don't quote me on that.

I'm pretty sure the Seljuk Turks used them often.

You might have some info in here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=211843 However, it's around 50+ years before this mod, and I don't know where their sources come from.
 
molashkre 说:
Sahran 说:
I'm inclined to tweak the Ilkhanate Anatolian roster a little (if I'm allowed to  :mrgreen:) in light of some new research for the Seljuks of Rum under Mongol suzerainty.  According to David Nicolle:

Pre Mongol 13th century Seljuk Armies (first half of the 13th century):
Considered to consist of two separate 'armies', consisting therein of Turcoman nomads, ghulams and freed ghulams, regional mercenaries known as jira khvar, Frankish mercenaries of Latin/Western European/Crusader origin, and various allie contingents.

Ancient Army
Modeled after traditional Turkish military. Consists of:
  • Havashi - retainers of the main cavalry commanders, being freely recruited Turcomans and a smaller number of ghulams, also defined as "servants". Muslim sergeants in other words
  • Jandars - guard units who garrisoned fortified towns. Seem to especially be drawn from Greek slaves of war = ghulams
  • Igdish / Ikdish - less clear. Not ghulams of slave origin, may have been or included a number of ghulam descendants. Could also have been Muslims of mixed origins. Had a high standing in the towns of the Sultanate, serving as local police or militia.
  • Fityan - already included/mentioned. Religious brotherhood militia

New Army
Seems to be inspired partially by the Byzantine emphasis on mercenaries. Generally consists of mercenary or properly paid troops Consists of:
  • Jira Khvar - locally recruited mercenaries. Debated if they belonged to Old or New army, but since they are mercenaries which defines the New army. Drawn all over Sultanate of Rum, included large numbers of foot soldiers. Probably the mail clad Anatolian Infantryman Osprey depicted, or the Garrison infantryman with a mail coat they also depicted. Those fellows could also be Igdish/Ikdish.
  • Western Mercenaries (Knightly cavalry and infantry crossbowmen) - rare in Syria where service could be seen as treason, but exceedingly common in Anatolia. Could be prisoners, mercenaries, or arrivals from declining Latin Empire.

Additionally they had Syrian and Caucasus hillmen, frontiersmen, Franks, Georgians, Greeks, Russians, Arabs against Khwarezmshah troops in 1230.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post Mongol 13th century Seljuk armies (second half of 13th century)
  • Tribal turcoman troops are rarely mentioned
  • Expensive Ghulam slaves became more difficult to recruit because of economic decay
  • Muqta holders of an iqta' fief gradually disappeared.
  • Jira Khvar local mercenaries became more important -especially "Germiyan" Turks (from a region of Western/central Anatolia), latin mercenaries, and those from other Islamic states.
  • "Mix of allies and mercenaries" from remaining Khwarazmians, Kipchaks, Arabs, Kurds, Greeks/Europeans of Nicean service, crusaders

The biggest thing I'd want to do is to make them have the usual 4 tiers of troops. Right now they are limited to just 3 and rather than harming them, when they'll get access to Kuauik's Anatolian mail armor and such it'd potentially make them stronger. You could just gimp it, but it's simpler I'd think to re-address it.

What I'm kind of interested in is also making the Christian corps of the roster generic so that they can represent and be equipped with a smattering of Armenian/Byzantine/European stuff and makeshift stuff for Georgians (Since we don't have any armor for them I think yet, the lamellar and mail ones Kuauik did for Anatolia I presume being for the Turkish troops). Problem there is I wouldn't know what language to use although Greek might be the best.

If you're willing Othr I could also see about depicting an actual city/village/castle dichotomy, since right now villages/cities are the same and castles are for cavalry I think.


here are Georgian armours:









as  you can see,most of them wear scale armours with cloaks,spiked helmets,splinted greaves and handcuffs.
also,I can help you to name Georgian troops with native Georgian names,just write me down,what kind of units Georgians will have  :wink:
yeeeeeeeeeees please make a georgian faction , im georgian and is a **** to dont take as faction georgia  :sad: i want fight as georgian in the mod  :roll:
 
Guys, I'm not sure whether or not you need this, but if you ever need any research help for Muslim factions, I can get you some serious history buffs for help. :wink:
 
souleater 说:
Guys, I'm not sure whether or not you need this, but if you ever need any research help for Muslim factions, I can get you some serious history buffs for help. :wink:
we need lords for them
 
Well, if you could lay it out for me in forms of detailed questions, I could then present them to those guys and hopefully they will answer soon.
 
Military Illustrations of Castillian, Andalusians & Moors from the Cantigas de Santa Maria c.1284

Military Illustrations of Castillian, Andalusians & Moors from the Cantigas de Santa Maria, c.1284
"The Cantigas de Santa Maria is one of the most notable literary productions of the court of Alfonso X. The Cantigas consist of more than four hundred poems set to music extolling the virtues of the Virgin Mary, and many of the poems derive from events of Alfonso's reign. While the poems were written in 1280, before the illustrations, which were completed on or around 1284, the illustrations have drawn scholars into a world of crosscultural references and literary parallels."
  Full Pages from the Cantigas de Santa Maria
Including larger pictures:

Extra Individual Panels from the Cantigas

MIRROR SITE
Military Illustrations of Spanish, Andalusians & Moors from the Cantigas de Santa Maria, c.1284

Druzhina
Spanish Illustrations of Costume and Soldiers
 
后退
顶部 底部