North Africa, Middle East and Minor Asia

[Al_Mansur]

I haven't any source which show Iberian crossbowmen with shield, so I don't know.
I post my advices concerning Andalusian troops equipment in a moment 

 

[Sahran]

I'm inclined to tweak the Ilkhanate Anatolian roster a little (if I'm allowed to  ) in light of some new research for the Seljuks of Rum under Mongol suzerainty.  According to David Nicolle:

Pre Mongol 13th century Seljuk Armies (first half of the 13th century):
Considered to consist of two separate 'armies', consisting therein of Turcoman nomads, ghulams and freed ghulams, regional mercenaries known as jira khvar, Frankish mercenaries of Latin/Western European/Crusader origin, and various allie contingents.

Ancient Army
Modeled after traditional Turkish military. Consists of:

• Havashi - retainers of the main cavalry commanders, being freely recruited Turcomans and a smaller number of ghulams, also defined as "servants". Muslim sergeants in other words
• Jandars - guard units who garrisoned fortified towns. Seem to especially be drawn from Greek slaves of war = ghulams
• Igdish / Ikdish - less clear. Not ghulams of slave origin, may have been or included a number of ghulam descendants. Could also have been Muslims of mixed origins. Had a high standing in the towns of the Sultanate, serving as local police or militia.
• Fityan - already included/mentioned. Religious brotherhood militia

New Army
Seems to be inspired partially by the Byzantine emphasis on mercenaries. Generally consists of mercenary or properly paid troops Consists of:

• Jira Khvar - locally recruited mercenaries. Debated if they belonged to Old or New army, but since they are mercenaries which defines the New army. Drawn all over Sultanate of Rum, included large numbers of foot soldiers. Probably the mail clad Anatolian Infantryman Osprey depicted, or the Garrison infantryman with a mail coat they also depicted. Those fellows could also be Igdish/Ikdish.
• Western Mercenaries (Knightly cavalry and infantry crossbowmen) - rare in Syria where service could be seen as treason, but exceedingly common in Anatolia. Could be prisoners, mercenaries, or arrivals from declining Latin Empire.

Additionally they had Syrian and Caucasus hillmen, frontiersmen, Franks, Georgians, Greeks, Russians, Arabs against Khwarezmshah troops in 1230.

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Post Mongol 13th century Seljuk armies (second half of 13th century)

• Tribal turcoman troops are rarely mentioned
• Expensive Ghulam slaves became more difficult to recruit because of economic decay
• Muqta holders of an iqta' fief gradually disappeared.
• Jira Khvar local mercenaries became more important -especially "Germiyan" Turks (from a region of Western/central Anatolia), latin mercenaries, and those from other Islamic states.
• "Mix of allies and mercenaries" from remaining Khwarazmians, Kipchaks, Arabs, Kurds, Greeks/Europeans of Nicean service, crusaders

The biggest thing I'd want to do is to make them have the usual 4 tiers of troops. Right now they are limited to just 3 and rather than harming them, when they'll get access to Kuauik's Anatolian mail armor and such it'd potentially make them stronger. You could just gimp it, but it's simpler I'd think to re-address it.

What I'm kind of interested in is also making the Christian corps of the roster generic so that they can represent and be equipped with a smattering of Armenian/Byzantine/European stuff and makeshift stuff for Georgians (Since we don't have any armor for them I think yet, the lamellar and mail ones Kuauik did for Anatolia I presume being for the Turkish troops). Problem there is I wouldn't know what language to use although Greek might be the best.

If you're willing Othr I could also see about depicting an actual city/village/castle dichotomy, since right now villages/cities are the same and castles are for cavalry I think.

 

[othr]

Of course sir.  Just summarize it for me when you're finished in easy to understand terms.  I'm a comp. sci. graduate

 

[kuauik]

guys wait with the finalizing the eqipment,i am working on some textures and helmets to cover the most used armour of the era,helmets for muslims are done,now i am covering the mongols and anatolia

 

[othr]

Still have to address the 'Eastern' troop tree.  Can't leave it like this now

 

[Al_Mansur]

North African units' equipment need some little changes I think. Also, the best sword for them is native' medieval_sword_c, but that sword isn't included in the mod.

 

[Sahran]

guys wait with the finalizing the eqipment,i am working on some textures and helmets to cover the most used armour of the era,helmets for muslims are done,now i am covering the mongols and anatolia

I don't think we're finalizing the equipment, but I'll wait to equip the Middle Easterners.  Take your time!

 

[molashkre]

I'm inclined to tweak the Ilkhanate Anatolian roster a little (if I'm allowed to  ) in light of some new research for the Seljuks of Rum under Mongol suzerainty.  According to David Nicolle:

Pre Mongol 13th century Seljuk Armies (first half of the 13th century):
Considered to consist of two separate 'armies', consisting therein of Turcoman nomads, ghulams and freed ghulams, regional mercenaries known as jira khvar, Frankish mercenaries of Latin/Western European/Crusader origin, and various allie contingents.

Ancient Army
Modeled after traditional Turkish military. Consists of:

• Havashi - retainers of the main cavalry commanders, being freely recruited Turcomans and a smaller number of ghulams, also defined as "servants". Muslim sergeants in other words
• Jandars - guard units who garrisoned fortified towns. Seem to especially be drawn from Greek slaves of war = ghulams
• Igdish / Ikdish - less clear. Not ghulams of slave origin, may have been or included a number of ghulam descendants. Could also have been Muslims of mixed origins. Had a high standing in the towns of the Sultanate, serving as local police or militia.
• Fityan - already included/mentioned. Religious brotherhood militia

New Army
Seems to be inspired partially by the Byzantine emphasis on mercenaries. Generally consists of mercenary or properly paid troops Consists of:

• Jira Khvar - locally recruited mercenaries. Debated if they belonged to Old or New army, but since they are mercenaries which defines the New army. Drawn all over Sultanate of Rum, included large numbers of foot soldiers. Probably the mail clad Anatolian Infantryman Osprey depicted, or the Garrison infantryman with a mail coat they also depicted. Those fellows could also be Igdish/Ikdish.
• Western Mercenaries (Knightly cavalry and infantry crossbowmen) - rare in Syria where service could be seen as treason, but exceedingly common in Anatolia. Could be prisoners, mercenaries, or arrivals from declining Latin Empire.

Additionally they had Syrian and Caucasus hillmen, frontiersmen, Franks, Georgians, Greeks, Russians, Arabs against Khwarezmshah troops in 1230.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post Mongol 13th century Seljuk armies (second half of 13th century)

• Tribal turcoman troops are rarely mentioned
• Expensive Ghulam slaves became more difficult to recruit because of economic decay
• Muqta holders of an iqta' fief gradually disappeared.
• Jira Khvar local mercenaries became more important -especially "Germiyan" Turks (from a region of Western/central Anatolia), latin mercenaries, and those from other Islamic states.
• "Mix of allies and mercenaries" from remaining Khwarazmians, Kipchaks, Arabs, Kurds, Greeks/Europeans of Nicean service, crusaders

The biggest thing I'd want to do is to make them have the usual 4 tiers of troops. Right now they are limited to just 3 and rather than harming them, when they'll get access to Kuauik's Anatolian mail armor and such it'd potentially make them stronger. You could just gimp it, but it's simpler I'd think to re-address it.

What I'm kind of interested in is also making the Christian corps of the roster generic so that they can represent and be equipped with a smattering of Armenian/Byzantine/European stuff and makeshift stuff for Georgians (Since we don't have any armor for them I think yet, the lamellar and mail ones Kuauik did for Anatolia I presume being for the Turkish troops). Problem there is I wouldn't know what language to use although Greek might be the best.

If you're willing Othr I could also see about depicting an actual city/village/castle dichotomy, since right now villages/cities are the same and castles are for cavalry I think.

here are Georgian armours:

隐藏

as  you can see,most of them wear scale armours with cloaks,spiked helmets,splinted greaves and handcuffs.
also,I can help you to name Georgian troops with native Georgian names,just write me down,what kind of units Georgians will have 

 

[kuauik]

there is also the UFO on the 4th picture
we know how you Georgians looked alike,please put the pictures into spoilers

 

[Sahran]

also,I can help you to name Georgian troops with native Georgian names,just write me down,what kind of units Georgians will have 

Appreciate the concept art, but right now because there isn't a Georgian Faction we'd just feature any Georgian looking armor (if it's done, or if it already exists) amongst the Christian corps of the Anatolian troops.

 

[othr]

Are Thagri Archers supposed to be mounted?

 

[Sahran]

Thagri archer is meant to be on foot. Just give them a shield along with the bow

 

[Sahran]

Othr, quick question. I understand 1257 has a script or some sort of magik which allows for cavalry to be always armed with a lance and a sword, for when the lance breaks. Is it possible for a horseman to always be armed with a lance, a sword, javelins, and a shield - and always carry each?

 

[othr]

It's possible to force them yes.  Now lance breaking...  it does break but... there is no way to actually remove this broken lance from an 'agent' (regular troops) so some time after the breaking of it, 2-3 mins or so he will magically produce another one.  But yes as long as the stuff exists in the troop entry you can force whichever weapon is there.

 

[Sahran]

Good news. My second question would be can we provide for the Ilkhanate to have Latin mercenaries (Knight Errants, crossbowmen, ect.) without making them part of the roster? I'm running into thematic issues with trying to have Armenians and Latins in the same troop tree (Christian Anatolian). It's possible, but it could be weird for a Latin Crossbowman to be upgraded from an Armenian hillman. If we can provide for the Ilkhanate to have those latins independent of their anatolian tree, it'd let me just focus on the Anatolians being explicitly Christian (Emphasis on Armenia) and explicitly Muslim (emphasis on Turks).

Reason I say that is it's rather explicit that the Ilkhanate, Armenians, and Seljuks all made widespread use of Latin Mercenaries (Typically knight or men-at-arms and infantry crossbowmen).

 

[Sahran]

Give no religion to the initial Anatolian village, city, and castle troop. Then Muslims for the Seljuks, Christian Orthodox for Armenians.

INITIAL ANATOLIAN VILLAGE TROOP: Paroikos (Pl. Paroikoi) Anatolikon

INITIAL ANATOLIAN CITY TROOP: Polites Anatolikon

INITIAL ANATOLIAN CASTLE TROOP: Mourtatoi (-i +s for plural) Anatolikon Cavallarii - Anatolian "Renegades" cavalry. Term was applied specifically to the Muslim Turkish renegades who fought for the Byzantines but this is the best term I can approrpirate to allow for a divergent Christian-Armenian or Muslim-Turkish development. Only other term I can think of to come up with would be some sort of "Hillmen cavalry".

Unarmored skirmisher cavalry with a mix of javelins and bows, short spears, hand axes, some given shields.


Ilkhanate armies can contain mixtures of Armenians and Turks.

Seljuk army should be just Seljuk and maybe some Ilkhanate auxilia. Also add if possible the European/Latin mercenaries (Specifically crossbowmen and cavalry)

Armenian army should be just Armenian and maybe some Ilkhanate auxilia. Also add if possible the European/Latin mercenaries (any of them).

In Mongol Ilkhanate armies they can get both Turks and Armenians.

All Ilkhanate armies should be able to get Latin mercenaries (specifically Cavalry & crossbowmen) from reinforcements.

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MUSLIM CITIES
------------------------------------------------------------------

Tier 2) Fata (pl. Fityan) Rajjala/Infantry: "Lesser Militia"
They'll be axe/sword/short spear infantry

Tier 3) Igdish/Ikdish Rajjala/Infantry: "Senior Militia"
They'll be axe/sword/short spear infantry

Tier 4) Jira Khvar Rajjala/Infantry: "Mercenary Infantry"
They'll be axe/sword/short spear infantry

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MUSLIM VILLAGES
------------------------------------------------------------------

Tier 2) Ghazi (pl. Ghuzat) Rajjala: "Volunteer/Jihadist infantry"
(Javelin armed light infantry)

Tier 3) Jabaliyyun Rami (pl. Rumat) - "Hillman archers"
Irregular hill folk archers, yippie!

Tier 4) Jira Khvar Jarkhariyya (Appropriation of Jarkhar - crossbow, and "ariyya" which seems to always mean "______men" in an associative sense)
(Heavy Crossbowmen)

------------------------------------------------------------------
MUSLIM CASTLES
------------------------------------------------------------------

Tier 2) Turcoman Faris / Jira Khvar Faris: Light Turkish cavalrymen
Ubiqutous light horse archer

Tier 3) Havashi Khayl: Retainer cavalry
Light-Medium horse archers, wearing leather lamellae or metal lamellar only on the front

Tier 4) Ghulam (pl. Ghilman) Al-Jandar (pl. Al-Jandariyya): Ghulam Bodyguards/Royal Retinue
Heavy horse archers with chainmail and/or full metal lamellar and the leather horse barding

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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CHRISTIAN CITIES
------------------------------------------------------------------

Tier 2) Hai/Hayasdan Ramik Netadzik: Armenian yeoman archers
Unarmored bowmen with shield, bow, sidearm

Tier 3) Hai/Hayasdan Vahani-Berrnakir (pl. Vahani-Kroghner) Netadzik
Translates at least as far as I can gather to Shield-bearer, a sergeant/servant in other words. Lightly armored in quilted stuff and such archers.

Tier 4) Hai/Hayasdan Krtser-Azat Netadzik
Lower/Junior noble foot archers. Mail clad, with bow, sword, shield.

------------------------------------------------------------------
CHRISTIAN VILLAGES
------------------------------------------------------------------

Tier 2) Hai/Hayasdan Ramik Nizagamartik: Armenian Yeoman spearmen

Tier 3) Hai/Hayasdan Vahani-Berrnakir (pl. Vahani-Kroghner) Nizagamartik: Armenian Shield-bearer spearmen
Translates at least as far as I can gather to Shield-bearer, a sergeant/servant in other words. Nizagamartik seems to mean Spearmen in old Armenian according to Europa Barbaroum's research.

Tier 4) Hai/Hayasdan Krtser-Azat (pl. Krtser-Azatner) Nizagamartik: Armenian Junior Noble Spearmen

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CHRISTIAN CASTLES
------------------------------------------------------------------

Tier 2) Hai/Hayasdan Ramikspas Ayrudzi - Yeoman/sergeant cavalry
armed with javelins, swords, spears, shields, maybe bow and arrow?

Tier 3) Hai/Hayasdan Azatagund Ayrudzi: Armenian Lesser nobles
Armed with Javelins, lances, swords, shields

Tier 4) Hai/Hayasdan Aspet: Armenian "Knights"
Armed with lance, sword, shield

============================
GOLDEN HORDE AUXILIARIES
============================

Stressing the importance of making Cuman troops strong in Golden Horde reinforcements. I am not sure I'd say make them the majority, but arguably they should be 40% of the reinforcements and Mongol troops the other 60%, or closer to 50-50 or 30-70.

 

[kuauik]

isn't giving Cumans to Mongols reinforcements a bit weird?Cumans were one of the stronges enemies of mongols

 

[Sahran]

They were enemies of the Mongols in the midst of their early conquests, but the nature of pretty much every steppe nomad empire has been to take on a conglomerate quality with its military makeup - the Huns at the Battle of Chalons in France likely had a bulk of their army being Germans (and possibly even guys on foot!).

The tricky thing with the Golden Horde and Ilkhanate in our period is that they just came into being, so it's a transitional period that's hard to chart.


On the Ilkhanate
According to Ian Heath's research:
Ilkhanate Vizier and historian Raschid Al-din writing in 1306 says that on the death of Genghis Khan in 1227 the army comprised 129,000 men. A variant copy of the same source says 230,000.

There's no way that a nomadic people, especially restricted to just "Mongols" (Which we can treat as those first Turko-Altaic tribes which Genghis Khan conquered and started off the conquests with) could constitute even half of those numbers.

Ian Heath mentions Turks, Persians and Turkomans still continued to play an important military role. He also mentions for the Mongols themselves (more in their glory days pre 1257) that Auxiliaries were provided by: Russians, Baskirs, Volga Bulgars, Alans, Georgians, Armenians, Kurds, Turcomans, Cumans/Kipchaks, Uigurs, Qarluqs, Jurchids, Qarakhitai, Kalmuks, Tanguts, Turks, Khwarizmians, Bedouin Arabs, Indians, and Chinese.

Batu's army which invaded Russia in 1236 had 70-100,000 "Turks" and other auxiliaries and 50,000 Mongols.

http://books.google.com/books?id=v0AoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA437&dq=Golden+Horde+kipchak&hl=en&ei=wRUITbzQEYL-8Aam3qk0&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Golden%20Horde%20kipchak&f=false
I can't verify on the accuracy of this encyclopedia, but it does mention the bulk of the Cumans submitted to the Mongols - a minority fled.

http://books.google.com/books?id=kPwX2dW-V6sC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Golden+Horde+kipchak&hl=en&ei=wRUITbzQEYL-8Aam3qk0&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CE0Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Golden%20Horde%20kipchak&f=false
Page 23:

His (Genghis Khan) "Mongols" were actually a tribal confederation of various Uralo-Altaic peoples, many of them Turkic, led by Chingis and his Mongol tribe. The armies were held together by the nomadic clan-tribal system and as they advanced their ranks were swelled with the peoples they conquered.

http://books.google.com/books?id=x6fhiKmemxwC&pg=PA70&dq=Golden+Horde+cuman&hl=en&ei=wRgITaeVDYK78gbZzcFK&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Golden%20Horde%20cuman&f=false

Although some of the Cumans sought refuge in Hungary, most of the mremained on the steppe and integrated into the Mongol Empire of the Golden Horde. Because they outnumbered the Mongols their language became dominant and they continued to observe many of their traditional customs while adapting some of those of the conquerors.

Independent of those specific accounts I can testify that I've read how the Golden Horde was increasingly Cumanified until into its middle and twilight years it was often just seen as the "Kipchak Khanate" or the Khanate of the Cumans. The replacement of the Mongol identity with Cuman did appear well into the 14th and 15th centuries, but they would still be a major part of the army at this point.

 

[Umar Abd al Azeez]

Why the Mamluk Sultanat and other Muslim Factions have a Christ Flag in the Game?
And the Arab Lords, have "Mongol Face" thats not realistic, can u change this? And Damascus and Bagdad ist good in the game i think maybe later can make arabic penunsila

 

[Sahran]

If you're referring to the Mamluks, you have to remember that the majority of the nobles in the Mamluk sultanate would not be Arab but rather Steppe Turks and others who in birth were outside of the Islamic world before conversion via the slave-warrior system. If there's Hafsid/Marinid nobles with mongol faces then that's a mistake.

Baghdad was pretty much wiped out a few years prior to the game's date by the Ilkhanate.