SP - General NON-SPAMABLE DIRECTIONAL STEP-DODGE new mechanics suggestion

[darksoulshin]

INTRODUCTION:
hand-to-hand combat seems "slow" and "heavy" in some cases, but not because you have the feeling that there is inertia to slow you down but because there are ideological choices relating to the mechanics that are adopted?
For example the various delays in attacks and blockages or the inability to quickly distance yourself from an opponent?
Would you like to be able to avoid (or at least try) a horse that runs towards you but your character inexplicably cannot sprint or otherwise starts very slow?

I will write it several times so that it is well received:
the mechanics I will describe have nothing to do with the dodge mechanics of games such as dark souls, it is not a somersault, it does not cover a lot of space, there are no invincibility frames and spam is discouraged.
Imagine the most normal and simple dodge you can do.
This is a faster than normal movement in a given direction.
Imagine a dodge like one made by YOU: this is what I propose.

This thread will not answer everything but only wants to propose a mechanic to TEST.
And only after having tested it decide whether to implement it in the game or in the mods.

NON-SPAMABLE DIRECTIONAL STEP-DODGE
the principle behind what I'm going to suggest is this:
used carefully and sparingly it saves your life.
spammed leads you to predictability, slowness and defeat.

MECHANICH DESCRIPTION:
-It consists of a rapid movement at speed V in the desired direction for a given distance D.
-The more you use the step-dodge and the more the V speed decreases.
-The more you use the step-dodge and the more the distance D decreases.
-During the dodge the attacks become more UNBALANCED ,and this increase in the unbalanced component depends on the weight of the weapon used and the weight worn during the dodge.
-no sommersault.
-no invincibility frames.

These first two conditions prevent spam of the same mechanic from being convenient.
There are no flips and no invincibility frames.
it's kind of a quick step.
the third condition balances the possible increase in damage due to speed, therefore reducing it by increasing the unbalanced component of the attack animation compared to the balanced one,this brings a further balance between those who wear heavy armor and those who do not wear them but have a two-handed weapon that does a lot of damage.
Also for modders it becomes easier to balance any mods where you want to enter the combat with 2 weapons or for those who fight light and armed with only a knife or FISTS.

-It is possible to raise your guard and change the direction of the block during the step-dodge but you are slower in doing it (like the delay that is currently there).
-Suggest me that if it is possible to attack (perhaps with lower speed given the inertial acceleration) during the step-dodge.

CONSEQUENCES ON DISPLACEMENT:
suppose we take an interval of 30 seconds.
We take the same unit of soldiers and place it in 2 different cases:
A) continue to walk backwards or forwards for 30 seconds.
B) spam the step-dodge backwards or forwards for 30 seconds.

For the first 2-3 step-dodge who is in case B travels a greater distance (the first 2-3 seconds), but after the spam of the step-dodge the mechanics means that the speed V and the distance D of the step -dodge are so short that in the span of 30 seconds those who are part of case A have traveled much more distance than those in case B.

So the mechanics cannot be spammed to travel a greater distance.

CONSEQUENCES FOR THE FIGHTS:
the step dodge can be used to create a fairly sudden distance between you and your opponent.
It can be used to dodge and prepare for an attack or to move faster to the enemy's flanks.
If spammed in too short a time, it becomes not only useless, but also harmful since it makes the block slower during the dodge and the speed of movement and the distance traveled cannot get you out of the range of action of the enemy weapon .

-Possible additional mechanics:
1)If you have the guard raised and step-dodge in the direction of the enemy (a small frontal directional cone) and impact with the enemy, this impact acts as a shield bash but with a greater range, since you have moved .
2)Sprint.
Possible use of the sprint (this is optional, do not consider it part of the thread, but only as a "possibility").
Using the "2 MODES WITH 1 BUTTON mechanic<--link" (2M1B), we can use the shift key for both:
-tap shift: "not spamable direcitonal step dodge"
-Hold shift: sprint.

The sprint is not a sudden start (you could use the direcional step dodge for this), but increases the maximum achievable speed.
The duration of the sprint and if it must be subject to some limitations, I leave it to the judgment of the people and the developers.
Personally this maximum speed I would tie it to a sort of "tiredness" accumulated in doing actions and the weight carried.
But only the maximum speed of the sprint, everything else has nothing to do with tiredness or stamina.

POSSIBLE KEY:
Shift
And zoom will go somewhere else.

WHERE I COME FROM SUCH MECHANICS:
Have any of you ever played smash bros? I don't mean the dodge itself which is clearly expressed in a completely different way, but the consequences of spam itself.
if yes, then you know how dodging works:
used carefully and sparingly it saves your life.
spammed leads you to predictability, slowness and defeat.

FINAL NOTE:
I understand someone's conservatism, who is afraid that the introduction of new mechanics could make bannerlord "too different from warband".
But bannerlord is already different from warband and must be, BUT BETTER.
He has to take what's good in warband and put in what warband needed.
But by not trying new mechanics, we would risk not understanding if we will need such mechanics or not.

PS:
This thread is a copy of the thread I wrote in the beta section of the forum.
Today I had a flash that I had to add to further balance the mechanics and I had to copy the thread in this section.
I leave you the link of the previous thread.
The modification carried out is found in "mechanical description" and consists in considering the mechanics of unbalance of the attacks animation (the proportion between balanced and unbalanced component).
here is the old thread: NON-SPAMABLE DIRECTIONAL STEP-DODGE

 

[Feewix]

Thanks for replying to my thread there. I was thinking about something like this too. Just one quick 'dodge' hop to any side, 'bunny hop'. But NOT Quake-like series of bunny hops and not spamable. So the question is how fast should these hops be allowed to be repeated without breaking the gameplay but improve it in a closest to realistic way. As well as how much will is there to go for closer to real.

My idea was to allow this 'dodge hop' to any of the four directions, for the time it takes for your other leg to catch up, line up and gain a stable stance again. This shall not make you be able to use this as an alternative to regular running in a direction. You should loose out already making two such hops in a row against running. Also, you wouldn't be able to swing your weapon during the hop, since you would be wholly concentrated on this 'dodge' action. I'm thinking it's realistic to have the block stance available but only if you do it initially and then do the hop. All this could be achieved with double tapping the W key, like with riding a horse, since this is unused when on foot. And here, you'd have it to be possible in all four directions so double-tapping A, S and D too. The backward hop would be somewhat less in distance than forward of course.

Spoiler

I never intended to play or rather even now don't intend to play other available melee combat games like this, which are merely not that good copies of it. The physics based swinging of the melee weapons was amazingly fun and complex enough in the original Mount&Blade series for me. On the other hand, general movement and navigating the map, obstacles and combat was always too simple and lacking. And it didn't get better in M&B2. This has nothing to do with managing your units, strategy or creating your own weapons. This is an action part of the game which I considered under-developed and even nowadays I see it as too much freedom where there shouldn't be, and not enough freedom where it's obviously missing. I don't know the reason but I'm almost sure a lot of people in and out of TW had all these cross their minds at times.

Jumping is still vertical hop + direction + speed. If you jump without enough direction and speed, you're stuck. There is no option to climb or vault over a simple, a bit higher obstacle without clumsily trampling on it and getting stuck sometimes, like it's still 2008. This should be implemented with holding jump [space] key.

Swinging is one thing and movement is another thing but they can't be this disconnected. I realize it has to be quite difficult to make this in a different way now, and maybe you'd have to start from the ground-up which is most likely painful.
Having no sprinting and no stamina in the game, OK, that might be a signature M&B thing I guess. But also is almost non-existent inertia of weapon blocking and weapon fainting and swinging. Especially with a big heavy weapon which has almost no influence on your stance and leg movement during a swing. Next thing you know, you can't swing a 2H fast and powerful enough since the 1H sword or even a pugio can counter it with an instant block/parry. Now, to try and go around that, there are unlimited movements and unlimited faints. Faints are also simple and at no cost to use. And online, they all seem pretty much instant no matter the size and weight of a weapon used and thus OP. But where they fail the satisfying gameplay is actually online, where usually the unlimited faints can't be shown in time to the other player to counter it, especially if someone has a bit higher ping. You can try and use weapon/shield bash or a kick, but it locks you up into it, so if you miss you're done. Oh how hard sometimes it can be to push/kick an opponent right in front of you. So, one thing leads to another.
A shield bash remained the same since M&B. It is actually a left hand swing at an opponent, making you open and vulnerable which is the opposite of what you would want. Instead it should be shielding yourself and pushing the opponent forward without doing any damage to them.
Another example for not enough inertia, you would be able to rush forward, swing your weapon and backpedal without loosing energy in the blow. It's your body movement forward that somewhat adds up to that energy. Also, you could overhead swing a 2H axe and then turn around with mouse your torso, turning almost completely to the other side. It's kind the same when doing a pike or spear pierce attack, which is a different thing, but can be done with the same direction and outcome change way too easy, and without loosing energy. Arms, torso and legs - it's all pretty much independent in M&B while in reality they work together to land a good blow. Right now, in multiplayer it looks like the other player will miss and does miss his overhead swing on me completely, but instead server detects it as actually landing a fatal hit on my hand, shoulder, head or whatever even though I was moving away from it. It all happens in hundredths of a second roughly. Seems that it's only latency not being able to show his adjusting of the direction towards me. Even though both that player and me have ~30 ping each, which makes it at ~60-70 combined. But that's an issue of online gaming. And M&B tries very hard to achieve something which happens, as I say, measured in hundredths, even thousands of a second. I guess those are the limits the devs always have to be aware of to try and make a good online action game. In the end I always gave them credit for trying really hard throughout the whole M&B series which wasn't just another game shooting bullets and rockets.

 

[darksoulshin]

Thanks for replying to my thread there. I was thinking about something like this too. Just one quick 'dodge' hop to any side, 'bunny hop'. But NOT Quake-like series of bunny hops and not spamable. So the question is how fast should these hops be allowed to be repeated without breaking the gameplay but improve it in a closest to realistic way. As well as how much will is there to go for closer to real.

My idea was to allow this 'dodge hop' to any of the four directions, for the time it takes for your other leg to catch up, line up and gain a stable stance again. This shall not make you be able to use this as an alternative to regular running in a direction. You should loose out already making two such hops in a row against running. Also, you wouldn't be able to swing your weapon during the hop, since you would be wholly concentrated on this 'dodge' action. I'm thinking it's realistic to have the block stance available but only if you do it initially and then do the hop. All this could be achieved with double tapping the W key, like with riding a horse, since this is unused when on foot. And here, you'd have it to be possible in all four directions so double-tapping A, S and D too. The backward hop would be somewhat less in distance than forward of course.

Spoiler

I never intended to play or rather even now don't intend to play other available melee combat games like this, which are merely not that good copies of it. The physics based swinging of the melee weapons was amazingly fun and complex enough in the original Mount&Blade series for me. On the other hand, general movement and navigating the map, obstacles and combat was always too simple and lacking. And it didn't get better in M&B2. This has nothing to do with managing your units, strategy or creating your own weapons. This is an action part of the game which I considered under-developed and even nowadays I see it as too much freedom where there shouldn't be, and not enough freedom where it's obviously missing. I don't know the reason but I'm almost sure a lot of people in and out of TW had all these cross their minds at times.

Jumping is still vertical hop + direction + speed. If you jump without enough direction and speed, you're stuck. There is no option to climb or vault over a simple, a bit higher obstacle without clumsily trampling on it and getting stuck sometimes, like it's still 2008. This should be implemented with holding jump [space] key.

Swinging is one thing and movement is another thing but they can't be this disconnected. I realize it has to be quite difficult to make this in a different way now, and maybe you'd have to start from the ground-up which is most likely painful.
Having no sprinting and no stamina in the game, OK, that might be a signature M&B thing I guess. But also is almost non-existent inertia of weapon blocking and weapon fainting and swinging. Especially with a big heavy weapon which has almost no influence on your stance and leg movement during a swing. Next thing you know, you can't swing a 2H fast and powerful enough since the 1H sword or even a pugio can counter it with an instant block/parry. Now, to try and go around that, there are unlimited movements and unlimited faints. Faints are also simple and at no cost to use. And online, they all seem pretty much instant no matter the size and weight of a weapon used and thus OP. But where they fail the satisfying gameplay is actually online, where usually the unlimited faints can't be shown in time to the other player to counter it, especially if someone has a bit higher ping. You can try and use weapon/shield bash or a kick, but it locks you up into it, so if you miss you're done. Oh how hard sometimes it can be to push/kick an opponent right in front of you. So, one thing leads to another.
A shield bash remained the same since M&B. It is actually a left hand swing at an opponent, making you open and vulnerable which is the opposite of what you would want. Instead it should be shielding yourself and pushing the opponent forward without doing any damage to them.
Another example for not enough inertia, you would be able to rush forward, swing your weapon and backpedal without loosing energy in the blow. It's your body movement forward that somewhat adds up to that energy. Also, you could overhead swing a 2H axe and then turn around with mouse your torso, turning almost completely to the other side. It's kind the same when doing a pike or spear pierce attack, which is a different thing, but can be done with the same direction and outcome change way too easy, and without loosing energy. Arms, torso and legs - it's all pretty much independent in M&B while in reality they work together to land a good blow. Right now, in multiplayer it looks like the other player will miss and does miss his overhead swing on me completely, but instead server detects it as actually landing a fatal hit on my hand, shoulder, head or whatever even though I was moving away from it. It all happens in hundredths of a second roughly. Seems that it's only latency not being able to show his adjusting of the direction towards me. Even though both that player and me have ~30 ping each, which makes it at ~60-70 combined. But that's an issue of online gaming. And M&B tries very hard to achieve something which happens, as I say, measured in hundredths, even thousands of a second. I guess those are the limits the devs always have to be aware of to try and make a good online action game. In the end I always gave them credit for trying really hard throughout the whole M&B series which wasn't just another game shooting bullets and rockets.

I agree with most of your arguments.
In particular:
- the step-dodge is clearly imaginable as you presented it, that is a step towards a given direction (not 4, more) in which, however, the player's point of view remains fixed along a given direction and towards, until the character returns to its basic stance.
The distance D traveled must necessarily be linked to the speed of movement of the character, otherwise whoever scores in athletics would have practically wasted time.
Obviously it must be a minimum and maximum distance that are reasonable.
-The non-spamability of the move must depend on the fact that the more you use it, the more inconvenient it becomes.
So I would say to decrease the speed of movement and the distance D traveled during the move, with each use.
I think that a simple decreasing function tending to a non-zero minimum is enough to make D and V decrease with use.
The choice of the function (and therefore its characteristics) will be decided once tests with different functions are carried out.
At most, one is outlined with a padè polynomial that has the desired characteristics.

- I would allow both block and attack during dodge, BUT as you say, I would take inertia into account.
Specifically: blocking and attack speed would become slower in execution based on which direction you are taking in dodging and which direction you are attacking or blocking from.
After all, just use the speed and weight of the weapon before you step-dodge and the speed and weight of the character during the step-dodge.
The difference between these two speeds gives us the relative speed.
Given the character himself as a reference, we would have that the weapon would have a non-zero relative speed and thanks to it and the moments of inertia (using the mass of the weapon) we could calculate the torques due to the inertia that tend to slow down the weapon or to speed it up.

So although I allow blocking or attacking during the dodge animation, they are changed based on the dodge direction and the direction of the defensive or offensive animation.

If we then want to further penalize the player who performs the dodge and simultaneously blocks or attacks, we can simply link the speed of these blocking or attack animations to the decreasing function that I had suggested above.

So the more you use the dodge, the more dangerous it becomes to do anything else during the dodge.

- about the keys.
I would not double tap with W, A, S, D, because it makes it difficult (or possible) to use the dorge diagonally.
I suggest using the shift key to which the little finger is dedicated, so that the other four fingers can act individually or in combination (for example S + A + shift) to allow a diagonal dodge backwards to the left.
it is true that on the shift there is the zoom, but honestly that function can go away in some other key and if I have to say it all, it is not even something that should be there.

Spoiler: ABOUT WHAT WRITTEN IN THE SPOILER:

ABOUT WHAT WRITTEN IN THE SPOILER:
I agree with a lot of what you say about "motion mechanics".
Jumping, climbing, crawling, lowering and "squatting", swimming and maybe even fighting in the water (for those who do not sink and with all the inconveniences of the case).
I would like all of this because in one way or another, a game that includes a part of the adventure will end up having situations that will require its use.
Or simply certain situations in which they come in handy if you want to.
Obviously they must be balanced so as not to break the game.

As for stamina and sprint.
There is no stamina, but introducing it is risky if it is done as it is traditionally done in games.
Instead of making the character inactive when the stamina runs out, it would be enough to make him slow in the attacks.
A system similar to that of "outward" but without the inactivity of the player when the stamina ends and with the recovery of energy by being at rest or performing non-strenuous actions would already be good.

Regarding the sprint, there is a kind of sprint in the game, but it is used automatically after 2-3 seconds of running in one direction without performing other actions.
If we used the outward system for energy and stamina, we could tie the maximum speed to energy, setting the normal running speed per character as the minimum speed.
With tap shift + (WASD) you would perform the step-dodge and if kept pressed with W you would enter into running mode until you release it. You would consume energy and when this is at a minimum then your maximum speed with sprinting would be equal to that of running and you would have slightly slower attacks.
In this way one would have a greater strategic use of one's energies in the field (and therefore that of one's units).

A shield bash remained the same since M&B. It is actually a left hand swing at an opponent, making you open and vulnerable which is the opposite of what you would want. Instead it should be shielding yourself and pushing the opponent forward without doing any damage to them.

agree

Another example for not enough inertia, you would be able to rush forward, swing your weapon and backpedal without loosing energy in the blow. It's your body movement forward that somewhat adds up to that energy

In reality, moving forward and then backwards is correct to give greater speed to the blow.

The character's arm has a length that, together with that of the weapon, places the center of mass of the arm + weapon at a certain distance D from the center of rotation (which is more or less located in the shoulder).
When the character moves backwards from moving forward with his arms raised to strike with the ax the blow, the character's body goes backwards, along with the fulcrum of the rotation.
But since the center of mass of weapon + arm is located distance D from the center of rotation, it tends to increase its angular velocity and therefore the consequent damage.
From the point of view of a reference system placed on the rotation fulcrum, it is like seeing that, without applied forces, inertial forces appear that make arm + weapon rotate when the character moves backwards.
As an experiment try holding something heavy in your hand, above your head, with your arms up and then suddenly move backwards.
Your arms will move forward, but as they are attached to your shoulder, they will feel the tension forces (bone structure, muscles, etc.) and will tend to rotate.
So although you are moving backward, you are giving more speed to a blow that is dealt forward.