Nodachi in Gekokujo and minor qualms

[LQuinze]

I figure I'd play a merchant who carries a chinese sword, since they weren't allowed to carry the daisho,

Actually, the restriction of daisho to samurai wasn't codified into law until the Tokugawa regime - the Edo period. Throughout the Sengoku there were no laws barring "civilians" (although arguably the military/civilian distinction is itself a modern construction) from carrying swords, and social mobility was actually quite high - any commoner could pick up a sword and join a samurai's retainer band if he so wanted. Obstacles to owning a sword were practical and monetary rather than legal or class-based. In the same fashion, the distinction between stipend earning samurai and land-holding farmers also was not codified until the Tokugawa.

Most of these edicts were intended to help the Tokugawa solidify control of Japan and keep weapons and wealth separate. Most of the pop culture associations we have of samurai date to the later Edo period; Japanese society was quite different during the Sengoku.

 

[Ichimonji Hidetora]

I figure I'd play a merchant who carries a chinese sword, since they weren't allowed to carry the daisho,

Actually, the restriction of daisho to samurai wasn't codified into law until the Tokugawa regime - the Edo period. Throughout the Sengoku there were no laws barring "civilians" (although arguably the military/civilian distinction is itself a modern construction) from carrying swords, and social mobility was actually quite high - any commoner could pick up a sword and join a samurai's retainer band if he so wanted. Obstacles to owning a sword were practical and monetary rather than legal or class-based. In the same fashion, the distinction between stipend earning samurai and land-holding farmers also was not codified until the Tokugawa.

Most of these edicts were intended to help the Tokugawa solidify control of Japan and keep weapons and wealth separate. Most of the pop culture associations we have of samurai date to the later Edo period; Japanese society was quite different during the Sengoku.

Indeed.
I would like to add that there were some exceptions concerning the wearing of daisho during the Edo period as ashigaru would also wear them (they were an extension of the samurai forces after all, but they were still commoners).
Furthermore, rikishi (sumo wrestlers) were also allowed to wear a daisho.

 

[LQuinze]

Anyway, how do people back then fight in mass?? Do the guys on the front line duel each other or just try to stab as many enemies they see? As in mount and blade they just clump (is that a word?) up en masse, especially in castles and just fails to swing at the enemy because of the friendly dudes in the back.

Mass pike battles could get very, very messy. The ideal situation would be to charge your opponent in the flank while he was still reforming to face you and thus scatter him, but in cases where pike formations clashed head-on the pikes would lock, and often the momentum from the back ranks pushing forward could lead to heavy casualties for the front ranks (this is often why they received double pay). Look up "push of pike" for more details.

There's some limited evidence that the bamboo pikes used by ashigaru were flexible enough to allow for overhead swings, and that one tactic in Sengoku mass battles would be to have the front line advance together on step at a time while holding their spears at the very butt end. With with each step taken, they would strike downward with the spears, in order knock down and away a wall of pikes in front. This is recorded in "Zohyo Monogatari", or "The Foot Soldier's Tales" a purported compilation of Sengoku era tactics - it was compiled after in the Edo period, though, so at best it probably reflects late period tactics if at all.

A translation can be found here. Here's the relevant quote (emphasis added):

Do not take it for granted that you should stab with a spear. Thrusting should be fine in a combat with one or even two enemies, but if you have a number of spears, all you need to do is unite and strike down together.

There's a lot of other interesting tidbits that reveal certain assumptions about Sengoku-era warfare (the section on bowmen reveal that 1 bowmen was meant to be deployed amongst 2 teppo, and was to shoot while the gunners reloaded) so it can be worth a read through, although again this may not have represented a universal view of Sengoku tactics and practices.

I'll consider bringing a nice short stabby stabby tanto, for the tight spots in castles? I presume thats where you find bum rushing the face hugging occurring?

A wakizashi might be better since it can block. The bigger problem with large weapons in close quarter situations is the tendency to get caught on stuff. Warband is frustratingly opaque in giving you feedback on things that your swing might catch on. Nagamaki, naginata, and nodachi are rather difficult to use once you get inside castle keeps since the swing will get caught on allies, enemies, interior pillars, etc. and if the swing gets interrupted at a bad moment you could get stabbed.

It's still doable, but you have to be really careful and know your limits. With a katana there's rarely any situation where you can't stab or overhead hack, even if things get really tight. With a longer weapon, you ideally want to be in the second or third rank, and slash through the gaps between your allies (this works really well with overhead polearm stabs, if you've enabled those animations).

 

[Articulo34]

.The bigger problem with large weapons in close quarter situations is the tendency to get caught on stuff. Warband is frustratingly opaque in giving you feedback on things that your swing might catch on. Nagamaki, naginata, and nodachi are rather difficult to use once you get inside castle keeps since the swing will get caught on allies, enemies, interior pillars, etc. and if the swing gets interrupted at a bad moment you could get stabbed.

The biggest problem is the inability to just swing half-way. If I know there is a wall or a person behind me I wouldn´t try to "charge" the swing all the way, but in Warband you just can´t and you´ll get stuck more often than not.
The worse part is that the AI doesn´t seem to get stuck so often and you might find yourself sorrounded by enemies and allies, completely unable to swing even a wakizashi and yet getting hit by the enemy. It´s so bloody frustrating.

 

[KhivalrousBear]

snip

Very, very interesting to read. Thanks!
And that book looks very good considering that it explains the tactics of individual soldiers

 

[PPQ_Purple]

The biggest problem is the inability to just swing half-way. If I know there is a wall or a person behind me I wouldn´t try to "charge" the swing all the way, but in Warband you just can´t and you´ll get stuck more often than not.

If you only make half of the motion than your strike only has half of the power. And that probably would not constitute an effective attack.

 

[KhivalrousBear]

The biggest problem is the inability to just swing half-way. If I know there is a wall or a person behind me I wouldn´t try to "charge" the swing all the way, but in Warband you just can´t and you´ll get stuck more often than not.

If you only make half of the motion than your strike only has half of the power. And that probably would not constitute an effective attack.

The only solution if you are stuck in mount and blade in a mass of ai, is to either jump or avoid it and instead do a flank attack, which I always do (coward meh! )

 

[Articulo34]

If you only make half of the motion than your strike only has half of the power. And that probably would not constitute an effective attack.

It would still be better than no attack whatsoever. And at least you could still chamber parry, it ****ing pisses me off when I´m trying to chamber only to be stuck (and struck) because there is someone behind me.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

If you only make half of the motion than your strike only has half of the power. And that probably would not constitute an effective attack.

It would still be better than no attack whatsoever. And at least you could still chamber parry, it ****ing pisses me off when I´m trying to chamber only to be stuck (and struck) because there is someone behind me.

To be fair, that is realistic.

 

[Articulo34]

To be fair, that is realistic.

EDIT: Don´t mind me, I think I misunderstood.

 

[Jozen]

If you can find me a picture with someone mounted with a nodachi and the intent to use it, I'd be very grateful

Here you go.

Thank you Ichimonji, you were great in Ran.

Is there any reason why I can't stab from horseback anymore? I looked for a spear that could do it but it seems to be bugged this time around.

 

[haitch40]

If you can find me a picture with someone mounted with a nodachi and the intent to use it, I'd be very grateful

Here you go.

Thank you Ichimonji, you were great in Ran.

Is there any reason why I can't stab from horseback anymore? I looked for a spear that could do it but it seems to be bugged this time around.

It is a bug. It will be fixed when 3.1 is out.

 

[Ichimonji Hidetora]

Thank you Ichimonji, you were great in Ran.

You're welcome... you can really see the killing intent on that picture too, there's even blood on the sword.

Is there any reason why I can't stab from horseback anymore? I looked for a spear that could do it but it seems to be bugged this time around.

Yeah it's a bug like  haitch40 said.
You can fix it yourself if you use "Morghs M&B WB-WFAS Editor", it's easy to use.

I used it to remove all the couchable tags from all yari types (perhaps that's why infantry troops didn't like to use most yari, because they were couchable cavalry lances, they were wielding swords instead).
Even though I made that change a few days ago, I still haven't confirmed if that fixed it for me.

 

[crazyworm]

Practically speaking, the function/use of most ōdachi fall into the first two categories—as ceremonial objects and cavalry swords. The possible functions of the ōdachi can be categorized as follows:

As a votive offering to a shrine (or specifically to its patron gods). Some ōdachi were used in prayer before a war, while others were displayed (sometimes in temples)—reputedly as legendary swords from mythology.
The average length of an ōdachi is 65–70 inches long (approx 165–178 cm), often with a 4–5 foot (approx 120–150 cm) blade. This made them unsuitable for close-quarters combat. Instead, they are commonly believed to have been used by fighters on horseback, as the blade length would allow them to take down infantry (without risk of being pulled off their mount).
Like other trends, ōdachi were often in vogue, most notably during the Edo Period, so it was not uncommon to see the swords used in various ceremonies.

Source on the  ōdachi/Nodachi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Cdachi Though i find it is still usable as a infantry weapon untill close quarters then i swap to the katana.

in essence the nodachi is my main and the katana the second companion sword however if i find a nagamaki i like then i go with katana and wakizashi.

 

[Gura]

I believe Samurai would carry, Yari, Daisho, Yumi and Arrows to battle

No, Too many weapons would just get in the way, in fact, some early Samurai just used a nagamaki on it's own or with just a dagger as even a sword could get in the way of the sweeping strikes needed for the use of the nagamaki. Often Archers and Musketeers would not use the whole Daisho set either.