#nobattlenobks

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Orion

Still Not Worthy
Global Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNW
My primary concern wasn't LOS = death, it's LOS = information. In a game where positioning is paramount, knowing where your enemy is going is critical. CS has other differences such as smaller map scale and fast player movement to account for CTs often not knowing where the Ts are going until they're contesting an objective. As this relates to your proposed mode, I'm worried that defenders will--on open maps--be able to react to the attacking team's composition & movements well before the attackers have begun contesting an objective, therefore making the objective itself no more than a MacGuffin as the rounds would almost exclusively be decided by the outcome of a full-on team fight instead of destruction of the objective. If you're going to have an objective-based mode, then playing the objective must always be a viable strategy. If defenders get to fully position themselves before the attackers can begin contesting then the attackers no longer play for the objective, they play for kills.

Ideally, defenders should have to split their forces between the two objectives in such a way that they can delay the attacking team without risking too many deaths, giving their teammates time to rotate. The attackers then should be focusing on tying up the first defenders and securing the objective. The rest of the defenders should show up before the objective can be wholly secured, making the attackers choose between finishing the objective or diverting all of their attention to fighting. Naturally, maps with greater distance between the two objectives should have longer sight lines to give the defenders earlier warning. The off-site defenders should always arrive at about the same time to a contested objective unless they adopt a strategy other than wait-and-see (like scouting for attackers with cav & ambushing from a central point).
 

Rhade

Master Knight
It seems evident that informed, thoughtful, and clearly passionate points have been ignored, and meaningful discourse has clearly been intentionally avoided as I struggle to believe that the community management team hasn't had the opportunity to respond. It's been more than a week now. I'm not sure how else to interpret the silence other than apathy, an unwillingness to actually engage the community, or believing our input is not worth their time.

That's unfortunate.
 

JenkinsJ

Recruit
Rhade said:
It seems evident that informed, thoughtful, and clearly passionate points have been ignored, and meaningful discourse has clearly been intentionally avoided as I struggle to believe that the community management team hasn't had the opportunity to respond. It's been more than a week now. I'm not sure how else to interpret the silence other than apathy, an unwillingness to actually engage the community, or believing our input is not worth their time.

That's unfortunate.

Sucks to know you're not worth anyone's time, eh?  :fruity:
 

Callum

Community Manager
Rhade said:
It seems evident that informed, thoughtful, and clearly passionate points have been ignored, and meaningful discourse has clearly been intentionally avoided as I struggle to believe that the community management team hasn't had the opportunity to respond. It's been more than a week now. I'm not sure how else to interpret the silence other than apathy, an unwillingness to actually engage the community, or believing our input is not worth their time.

That's unfortunate.

I did post in here asking for the discussion to be moved to a single thread, which makes gathering and presenting all of your feedback to the team a lot easier and helps to make sure that none of it is missed. I might not be able to directly reply to each comment but we are taking on board what you have all said and are working to find a solution that we think the majority of people will be happy with. For now, there isn't really much more to say other than we will have some type of single-life battle mode in Bannerlord, but we don't have plans to make it a MM mode at this point. The perk system is there to stay, but it is also something which is being worked on and improved to give players more choice. We will be looking to have a deeper discussion with you all on this when you have had a chance to actually play the game.
 

Rhade

Master Knight
Callum_TaleWorlds said:
We will be looking to have a deeper discussion with you all on this when you have had a chance to actually play the game.

Unless I'm missing something, that's going to be after launch, at which point it's going to be too late to make any meaningful changes. Really don't understand how that's the only point a "deeper" conversation can happen.

Past that, how does the team plan on "finding something that the majority of people are happy with" when they aren't engaging with the community whatsoever on important design decisions? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

Quite disillusioned with how all this has gone down, but wish you guys luck.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
Yea it really needs clarified whether our first chance to try and suggest things will be either at launch, some token period of beta testing 2 weeks prior, or a genuine chance to test and make changes well before a larger beta testing.
 
OurGloriousLeader said:
Yea it really needs clarified whether our first chance to try and suggest things will be either at launch, some token period of beta testing 2 weeks prior, or a genuine chance to test and make changes well before a larger beta testing.

you will (probably) get your chance to suggest things after launch where your suggestions will be swiftly disregarded as the stats show the influx of newbs are all playing the crappy skirmish mode because of the big shiny matchmaking button  :meh:
 

Orion

Still Not Worthy
Global Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNW
Nah, TaleWorlds has historically held invite-only, closed, and buy-in beta stages for their games. They may do what they did for Warband and eventually offer open beta to anyone who has a copy of the previous title. The devs were also very active on the forums during the Warband and original M&B betas, though that may change a bit due to the advent of the Community Manager position.
 

jamoecw

Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Rhade said:
Callum_TaleWorlds said:
We will be looking to have a deeper discussion with you all on this when you have had a chance to actually play the game.

Unless I'm missing something, that's going to be after launch, at which point it's going to be too late to make any meaningful changes. Really don't understand how that's the only point a "deeper" conversation can happen.

Past that, how does the team plan on "finding something that the majority of people are happy with" when they aren't engaging with the community whatsoever on important design decisions? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

Quite disillusioned with how all this has gone down, but wish you guys luck.
well warband itself was mainly M&B with multiplayer. warband itself has had several additions to the mulitplayer over the years built right into native. so i don't get why the company can't patch in something after launch. heck there might be minor mod support straight from the map download screen (downloaded while doanloading the map) to allow constant updates and tweaks to small things to keep things balanced.
 

lolbash

Master Knight
WBNWVCWF&S
Orion said:
Nah, TaleWorlds has historically held invite-only, closed, and buy-in beta stages for their games. They may do what they did for Warband and eventually offer open beta to anyone who has a copy of the previous title. The devs were also very active on the forums during the Warband and original M&B betas, though that may change a bit due to the advent of the Community Manager position.

Things change. Now Taleworlds have money, lots of devs, and time unlike their warband days.

Armagadan don't need to do closed betas anymore when they can just get one of their 70 other devs, or the reporters for Gamestar to play the game.
 

Sundeki

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWB
Orion said:
That's pretty damn cynical, even by my standards.

Unmet expectations lead to people getting wound up, I think he's being a bit salty but it's not unreasonable. I believe it's fair to say that TaleWorlds has stumbled from one blunder to the next in recent years and that inevitably generates some discontent and erodes faith from much of the community. Much of the opinions of the more involved/interested community seem to fall on deaf ears, which makes matters worse. While I think he's jumping the gun a bit, it's not entirely unreasonable.
 

lolbash

Master Knight
WBNWVCWF&S
Lets also not forget the stigma of early access games right now. I don't know your video game buying habits, but I almost always skip a game on steam the minute i see the words "early access". Imagine if I didnt know about the existence of Bannerlord, and skipped the game. How terrible would that be, for both the players and Taleworlds.

In any case, all we can do right now is complain on the forums and pray they actually listen to us.
 

Orion

Still Not Worthy
Global Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNW
"Early access" is practically a dirty word. TaleWorlds hasn't used it before, and as you said previously, they have money now. They don't need to crowdfund their game through an early access program. They didn't do early access for Warband, either. They ran the Warband beta from September '09 until the end of March '10, or about 7 months. Most early access games aren't practically feature-complete when they begin early access, and they stay in that phase for much longer. Warband was, and didn't, respectively. I predict Bannerlord will follow a similar route, despite your bitterness and misgivings about waiting so long to get there. I've been here for the long, long haul, and from where I sit I don't think they've changed as much as you say.
 

Chaingun

Knight at Arms
WB
I really don't get the obsession about changing what works [from certain game developers, not just TW]. I played Battle because the permadeath adds a level of excitement I don't get with the respawns of Deathmatch. Multiple lives will make each round a slog the way Deathmatch is, without sizable and distinguishable start, mid, and late phases of each round. Sigh.
 

madnes5

Recruit
its really a shame that there is no battle mode.
alot of people that i knew and met who played this game really only played battle and duel.
The fact that they didnt even include these game modes to start multiplayer doesnt really make much sense.

Not being able to change equipment either? I mean every game you guys hear of thats successful listens to their community.
I can understand not putting these things in at first, because well, id assume that everyone just assumed these things would have been transfered over to the new game, but to not include them afterwords?
People who played warband waited years and years during the devlopment of bannerlord, and this is the thanks you give them? completely changing the multiplayer game that they grew to love and play.
It just goes to show that you guys are not really looking out for peoples best interests.

Its actually so unfortunate because i love the single player.. but as for the multiplayer, my hopes now is that another game takes what you made in bannerlord so a new studio, to give players what they want. to create a multiplayer battle experience that can be competitive with the mouse and keyboard, and also bring your single player kingdom making experience to the table aswell.. i wouldnt wish you guys less but it sucks because noone else will be able to make a mount and blade single player game like the original makers, but people have to support those that listen and help them moving forward. with that being said, at this point, im looking forward to another game from another title that brings exactly what you have already made to us because you failed to do so.

edit: also everyones loyalties to you guys is incredible, because look at how hard they are trying to find a way to move forward, everyone is wondering what they can do, trying to find solutions when there is an easy one, support another game developer. support someone who understands your concerns and wants to help create a game that you want to play
 
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