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Dethikus

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KhergitLancer80 said:
Huge wall of OPINIONS.

First of all the word "interesting" is objective. What is interesting to me, the other posters, and you, could all be and mean different things. I don't see what your complaining about the lack Genghis or mongol movies has to do with anything. Maybe you should join an activist group or protests in those countries and force them to make more movies about their history?

Khuzaits are nothing like other people? Well theyre like the mongols and tartars, scythians, sarmatians, parthians, sassanid persians, also the comanches in america as they all use horse archery and hit and run tactics plus the crusaders even employed the turcopoles which were greek and turkic horse archers. Also at the yurt comment, there are tents? There were Indian tipi's? They didnt have a patent on those. Unique can also be objective, Roman warfare tactics might be unique to me. Greek hoplite warfare is very unique to me or others. Norman warfare might be.

Its not western history's fault its in the spotlight so much, and that definitely doesn't degenerate its uniqueness to me and many other people.
 
My favourite Genghis Khan movie is with Omar Sharif:


As for the discussion...There are actually quite a few western movies about Genghis Khan. Yes it was a huge empire and it changed a few things in history.But truth be told, the extension of its domains doesn't mean much. The Mongols really didn't leave a legacy like the Persians, Greeks or Romans did. Mainly due to its lack of cultural cohesiveness and political organization, so to speak.

Also, the the game doesn't cover the 6 major cultures at that time period. The Chinese are out, just to start with. I'd say Mount and Blade is about factions inspired on civilizations that have clashed each other during medieval times in Europe.

Now, is it really surprising that we have western culture represented more often in movies? I think it's kinda obvious, given the majority of the big studios and big budgets are western. It's a business, and they wanna sell it to the right people. A hero representing their culture/values would be the right choice in most of the cases.

I never heard of a Bollywood film about Joan of Arc. But (one of) their national heroines is Rani of Jhansi, and they are about to release a movie about her.
Ironically, they call her the Joan of Arc from India.  :razz:



 

NPC99

Baron
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Iberian Wolf said:
My favourite Genghis Khan movie is with Omar Sharif:

As for the discussion...There are actually quite a few western movies about Genghis Khan.
Yes it was a huge empire and it changed a few things in history.But truth be told, the extension of its domains doesn't mean much. The Mongols really didn't leave a legacy like the Persians, Greeks or Romans did. Mainly due to its lack of cultural cohesiveness and political organization, so to speak.

Also, the the game doesn't cover the 6 major cultures at that time period. The Chinese are out, just to start with. I'd say Mount and Blade is about factions inspired on civilizations that have clashed each other during medieval times in Europe.

Now, is it really surprising that we have western culture represented more often in movies? I think it's kinda obvious, given the majority of the big studios and big budgets are western. It's a business, and they wanna sell it to the right people. A hero representing their culture/values would be the right choice in most of the cases.

I never heard of a Bollywood film about Joan of Arc. But (one of) their national heroines is Rani of Jhansi, and they are about to release a movie about her.
Ironically, they call her the Joan of Arc from India.  :razz:

John Wayne’s was the only Western about Gengis Khan, but, I agree - Omar Sharif’s portrayal/film was much better.  :grin:
 
+Dethikus

I am sorry for not proving a subjective thing like Khuzaits being the most unique faction with objective evidences.
My arguement being completely subjective was obvious from the arguement itself.
Still, I think noone can argue about which culture was more presented in pop-culture.

In my opinion when a thing is represented or mentioned too much it loses its interesting part maybe uniqueness is not the true word for that I dont know.

Also all the people you mentioned are under Khuzait's umbrella anyways. Except Sassanids who had little to nothing to do with steppe people.
Sassanids were a settled Persian Empire. Their cavalry also (probably with the influence of the central asians) practiced horse archery(just like Byzantines) but they were known for their cataphracts as well.

What I meant is that be it Sturgia or Vlandia or even Aserai. They have relatively more common points since the things that the settled life style will bring to human life are obvious. Now, in the game Khuzaits seem to be a long time nomadic people just adopted the settled lifestyle and they even have a minor faction which still practices semi nomadic life style. Also historically the people that Khuzaits represent were relatively more further to Europe compared to others so it is natural.


+Iberian Wolf
Dont get me wrong I completely understand why steppe people are less presented compared to others.
If it was the Mongols today who were good at film making they would cover their own history it is completely natural.
I am not talking about the reasons for this or I am not questioning this.
I am just saying because of this they are more interesting and look more unique.
Who knows they in fact started to get represented in many movies, video games and stuff including influencing people in fantasy universes such as Dothraki.
Maybe some time later people will also start to find it banal.

For the Chinese, yes I should have said cultures that somewhat influenced medieval Europe to some degree.





 

Crowcorrector

Sergeant at Arms
I see that khuzait/ Khergit scum have taken over this tread.
Can't wait to crush these nomadic vermin.... whenever the game comes out
 

Silen

Duke
Crowcorrector said:
I see that khuzait/ Khergit scum have taken over this tread.
Can't wait to crush these nomadic vermin.... whenever the game comes out

Onwards. I shall bring my army forth and march with you.
 

Honved

Knight
Crowcorrector said:
I see that khuzait/ Khergit scum have taken over this tread.
Can't wait to crush these nomadic vermin.... whenever the game comes out
Perfect.  Come out from the safety of your stone walls and chase us into the vast open plains, where our maneuverability will cut off your supplies, isolate you from any hope of rescue, and then destroy you, just like the last dozen armies that had the bright idea to follow us.

Horse archers didn't leave a solid and obvious legacy of cities and fortifications, didn't build schools and temples, and didn't make any significant contribution to the art or literature of Europe, but their vast area of unified control opened up safe trade routes and communication of ideas between East and West, which led to many of the developments and advances that made the Renaissance happen.  The deterioration of those same trade routes after their collapse led to efforts to reach China by other means, thereby stimulating naval exploration and the search for a passage to the East by going West. Their impact on the development of the modern world is huge, yet they left very little of their own mark on it.
 

Crowcorrector

Sergeant at Arms
Honved said:
Horse archers didn't leave a solid and obvious legacy of cities and fortifications, didn't build schools and temples, and didn't make any significant contribution to the art or literature of Europe,

Sooooo basically the Khuzaits are thick as pig-****,  is that what you're getting at?  :lol:
 

Dethikus

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Honved said:
which led to many of the developments and advances that made the Renaissance happen.

Lol obviously you have a boner for the mongols but thats definitely a reach man. The timing is a bit off, with that being in the 13th century. If anything they had a negative impact on Europe, what with the pillaging and the plague they helped spread. Sure there were trade routes and a few technologies from the east but you're giving them a lot more credit than they're due. The European renaissance was started internally, within Europe. What did barbarians have to do some Italian dudes painting?

Actually they probably helped by not being able to conquer Europe I guess. Some credit is due there lol
 

Bjorn The Hound

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@Crowcorrector
You should look the history of Uyghur Khanate.

@Dethikus
The European renaissance was started internally? Really. Christianity made the hellenistic era end throughout all Europe. Academia of Platon shut down under influence of Christianity. Some of scholars went east and that is how Islamic era of science and translating historical documents which was coming from east and west began but Europe entered dark ages. When Mehmet the second conquered Constantinople, scholars who are still under influence of Helenistic era went Italy this time. They played big role on Renaissance. Europe learned the greatness of Helenistic era from Arabs. The European Renaissance was started internally is the most ridiculous sentence I ever heard.

But you are right on one thing. If Ögedei did not die, most probably Monghols would invade Europe all the way to Italy and as humans we all would have lost something.

Edit: About trade routes, Turkic and Monghol states made possible east west trade secure. That is one of the important thing how rich families in Italy emerged and most of them was passionate about art and humanity. So artists who are threatened by church find secure places under protection of this families. One of them was Medici.
 

Dethikus

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bjorntheconquerer said:
The European renaissance was started internally? Really. ...The European Renaissance was started internally is the most ridiculous sentence I ever heard.

Who knew the European renaissance wasn't started by Europeans?  :facepalm:
Quite a confusing name then.

By arabs do you mean the Greek refugees from Constantinople? The Europeans learned of Hellenistic Greece from none other than the Hellenes, obviously. As that is their culture not the arabs. But if you want them to have credit I guess they can be thanked for kindly preserving classical Roman and Greek texts for our returning crusaders to bring home with them.
Also Greeks are European. Greece is in Europe. Constantinople sits between Europe and Asia. It started internally by Europeans. It literally started in Italy in the 1350's and slowly evolved and spread throughout the rest of Europe for hundreds of years to its peak in the 17th century. It wasn't some sudden boom.

Also you show a lot of hostility towards the church, while it had its problems, it directly affected the European Renaissance. Heres a nice little excerpt from a PDF from methacton.org "The Renaissance was a rebirth of ancient Greek and Roman thinking and styles, and both the Roman and Greek civilizations were Mediterranean cultures, as is Italy. The best single reason for Italy as the birthplace of the Renaissance was the concentration of wealth, power, and intellect in the Church. In that time, the Church controlled so much of the political, economic, and intellectual life of Europe, that it gathered most of the best minds, wealthiest men, and most powerful leaders unto itself in Rome at one time or another. The noble merchants of various Italian cities had built up so much wealth over the centuries that they could better afford to patronize the arts and sciences than almost anyone else."
Hell even Wikipedia knows this dude "In the revival of neo-Platonism Renaissance humanists did not reject Christianity; quite the contrary, many of the Renaissance's greatest works were devoted to it, and the Church patronized many works of Renaissance art."

Honestly you sound kinda jealous and butthurt, why not celebrate your own history, whatever that may be, instead of poorly attempting to hijack Europeans?
I have never ever seen someone say the EUROPEAN renaissance wasn't influenced or created by Europe/Europeans  :roll:
 

Looter

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https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3rort0/12th_century_renaissance_significance_and_sources/cwq1n88/

Refer to in text citations for sources listed by the moderator if you wish to learn more.
 

Dethikus

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Looter said:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3rort0/12th_century_renaissance_significance_and_sources/cwq1n88/

Refer to in text citations for sources listed by the moderator if you wish to learn more.

Thanks for this, never really read much about the 12th century kinda "forerunner" renaissance, it gets over looked a lot including by me  :oops:

Also Bjorn, the renaissance was a accumulation of tons of different things so the reason couldn't be nailed down to one single factor. But it was essentially just Europeans relearning and discovering their own lost and forgotten European history. If that isn't inherently and internally European to you, then theres no undoing your denial and I give up lol
 

Bjorn The Hound

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Wow, Did I say "EUROPEAN renaissance wasn't influenced or created by Europe/Europeans"? IT IS CREATED BY EUROPEANS. I just said how eastern world influenced it.

"By arabs do you mean the Greek refugees from Constantinople?" Ofcourse not. I meant  Jean Chrysoloras, Jean Argyropoulos, Gemistos Plethon, Bessarion etc.

"Also you show a lot of hostility towards the church" if christianity did not exist, Hellenistic era would not have ended in the first place. There was always pressure created by church on scientists. I am not denying church positive influence on Renaissance but the families gave quite options for artists.

About jealousy, how can someone be not jealous of Renaissance if your culture is not in the core of it but as a human I am proud of it.

Edit: "Also Bjorn, the renaissance was a accumulation of tons of different things so the reason couldn't be nailed down to one single factor." did I try to do this?
How can something as complex as Renaissance be explained by one single factor?
 

Dethikus

Banned
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bjorntheconquerer said:
IT IS CREATED BY EUROPEANS. I just said how eastern world somewhat influenced it.
Fixed that. But why didn't you just say that instead this hostile stuff?
bjorntheconquerer said:
The European Renaissance was started internally is the most ridiculous sentence I ever heard.
Now I don't know which you believe, so which is it? Did the Europeans create their own renaissance or not dude?




bjorntheconquerer said:
Europe learned the greatness of Helenistic era from Arabs.
You say this, saying they learned from arabs. Then in the following quote say no to my question about it being Greeks, then name a bunch of Greek scholars and philosophers. ???
bjorntheconquerer said:
"By arabs do you mean the Greek refugees from Constantinople?" Ofcourse not. I meant  Jean Chrysoloras, Jean Argyropoulos, Gemistos Plethon, Bessarion etc.
Again, which is it? Did they learn of ancient Greek arts and texts from the very Greeks you posted or not?


bjorntheconquerer said:
"Also Bjorn, the renaissance was a accumulation of tons of different things so the reason couldn't be nailed down to one single factor." did I try to do this?
How can something as complex as Renaissance be explained by one single factor?
Okay now you're making sense, we can agree on that. It can't. But some of the biggest factors were Europeans, their art, their literature and their own lost history. Which undoubtedly was internally European. Can we agree on this?
 

Bjorn The Hound

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Somewhat? The reasons of influence is listed in my first post. And these influences, my friend, played a role (it is just a part of bunch of other reasons) on triggering Renaissance so not just internally. But Eurepans was in the core of action.

So Arabs, Ibn Rushd, Ibn Khaldun, al-Farabi, Ibn Sina, Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi etc. these men did not just embrace Hellenistic ideals but also advanced it.
 
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