NINJA! - Shinobi, Kunoichi & the history of Ninjutsu

Users who are viewing this thread

matmohair1

Marquis
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
ninja.gif
4477817_f260.jpg

ninja.jpg

ninja4.jpg

11110016_kostyum-nindzya.jpg

tekko-kagi1111.jpg

oob1.jpg

180-4_wmark.jpg

56.%20%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%20-%20%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%20%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F.jpg

01-.jpg

500786420.jpg

001lhk.jpg

_64311007_ninja_624.gif

prch.jpg

ninja_assassin.jpg

ninja-armor-takayama-678x1024.jpg

ZVE6406.jpg

armor6jk.jpg

03-.jpg

57.%20%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%20%3F%3F%3F%3F%20-%20%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F.JPG

sh3j.png

1-8d06d1af0e.jpg

21-910aa6078b.jpg

22-8030a580aa.jpg

23-7347abe892.jpg

24-6344fbf316.jpg

25-de7b384bb4.jpg

26-670a2204ea.jpg

27-efec3c5d64.jpg

28-b2fbf185d6.jpg

29-9fb959069d.jpg

30-c352012d1a.jpg

31-e0142a2819.jpg

32-def72ebfa3.jpg

33-10d8e59c0e.jpg

34-73bb131eb1.jpg

35-a2ae449dee.jpg

36-9aac03c721.jpg

37-2d7c6cb1f8.jpg

38-59cccda8cf.jpg

vnrp.jpg

04-.jpg

zvus.png

id0g.png

factsheetshurikenandshaken.jpg

07.%20RED72011Box.jpg

weapons1hz.jpg

022_AAH05.jpg

03.jpg

n10.jpg

01.jpg

02.jpg

06.jpg

08.jpg

05.jpg

04.jpg

07.jpg
200px-Ninja-kanji.svg.png
On most occasions the ninja looked no different from anybody else...

:arrow: http://web-japan.org/museum/others/ninja/ninja01/ninja02.html

b2_6.jpg
Chigiriki.gif

02-.jpg

b2_1.jpg
b2_4.jpg

ninja_assassin.jpg

b2_3.jpg
b2_2.jpg
b2_5.jpg

05.%20%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%20%C3%A2%C2%80%C2%93%20%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%20%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%20%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F-.jpg

:arrow: http://web-japan.org/museum/others/ninja/ninja03/wisdom02.html

d2_nekome.gif


:arrow: http://web-japan.org/museum/others/ninja/ninja03/wisdom01.html

d1.jpg


 

kweassa

Sergeant at Arms
More like "History of Bull****."


Discovery isn't exactly renowned for checking validity of their sources.

They usually do a better job embellishing publicized fantasies into nice documentary forms, to make it look like its respectable material.
 

matmohair1

Marquis
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
:lol: your rant is a way too off the time-frame!
actually that documentary hails back from the early 90's when both
the discovery and history channels actually researched their material.

tumblr_m1s822HvJz1qbrw05o1_500.jpg

:roll: & you should thankfully be grateful that
I didn't link any of the modern crap like the history channel's
"real ninjas" which focused more on US marines than on the topic itself!
 
kweassa said:
More like "History of Bull****."


Discovery isn't exactly renowned for checking validity of their sources.

They usually do a better job embellishing publicized fantasies into nice documentary forms, to make it look like its respectable material.

This is actually right.

As a spy or assassin, you wouldn't actually wear clothes that tell "I'm a ninja". Also, it was quite hard to smuggle a Katana inside a castle (would you really carry it around?). A ninja would usually give the look a peasant or a simple servant from the castle. On the weapons side, they made them by hand mostly.
 

havoc

Marquis
M&BWB
I will never understand why assassins and the like are depicted in clothing that screams '****ing run'. I mean seriously, the point is to blend in and that goes out the window if you wear something that people would associate with an assassin.
 

matmohair1

Marquis
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
The dark ninja outfit is just a modified example of normal peasant clothing.
Some researches speculate that colors such as Dark blue, brown, Nightshade
or even dark red may have been more common than the pitch black examples.
It was only useful during special cases such as midnight assassinations
or to cause fear and havoc into enemy lines during sieges or sabotage missions.
 

shostak

Squire
Havoc said:
I will never understand why assassins and the like are depicted in clothing that screams '******** run'. I mean seriously, the point is to blend in and that goes out the window if you wear something that people would associate with an assassin.

As far as I know it is based in much later theatre productions, where to add suspense a stage hand, (who apparently always dressed all in black) would assassinate somebody. The idea stuck and was incorporated into popular culture.
 

Bromden

Archduke
Also you don't have to be a a ninja (or a genius) to dress in black for any kind of suspicious night activity. I don't think spies and assassins had exclusive rights to wear black clothing in feudal Japan.
 

kweassa

Sergeant at Arms
Bromden said:
Also you don't have to be a a ninja (or a genius) to dress in black for any kind of suspicious night activity. I don't think spies and assassins had exclusive rights to wear black clothing in feudal Japan.

...as well as there isn't any real historical source to back up that the shinobi even wore such a thing in the first place. The historicity of the 'ninja' is one big heap of trash that's got historical sources (which is very rare in the first place) mixed up with modern day fantasies and commercialized crap, that the truth is the "researchers" themselves are all confused about what is fact and what is fiction.

All we can deduce at this point with what limited information there exists, is that the historical 'ninja' were most likely a clan/band of information salesmen hired by local feudal lords under either a case-by-case contract, or a set service term. All the rest of the tales about how they were superhuman combatants, or studied a zillion different arts to become a super-spy/assassin of sorts, is basically the Far-Eastern equivalent of Codenumber 007, James Bond. Notice how James Bond does exactly everything no modern day subterfuge agent would ever do.

Just as in real life, the best and most formiddable spies are someone nobody would ever suspect -- teachers, housewives, students, everyday-man who just happens to work near sensitive material or know who handles them, it is most likely ninjas were such as well.

Besides, such spies/information salesmen existed in any region of the world where there was political/military tension, at any given era of history. Recorded documents of spy networks and its use date back to even to the ancient Roman days... in some cases even further back in time.

Basically, it is safe to assume that any info about the ninja that involves scaling walls, wearing black, throwing stars/shuriken, assassinating people and infiltrating guarded places, is simply fictional crap created some time between early 19th~mid 20th century, where romanticized action novels became greatly popular among the masses. Upon that tradition, modern novelists such as the legendary Yamada Futaro (often cited as the 'father of the modern ninja fiction') or the renowned Shiba Ryotaro, have reinvented the image of the ninja through their most famous works. Most REAL researchers (not those self-described 'researchers') credit those two authors as the beginning of the "ninja" fantasy-fictional works.


[Edit]  Not to mention that in real life, infiltrating guarded positions are next to impossible. The whole reason the castle/fort walls were plastered in white in first place, was for the guards to immediately notice if there was somebody near it. Also, most ninja fiction treat guardsmen as imbeciles and morons, despite the fact that in reality guards and their captains were most usually the most seasoned of soldiers hand-picked in recognition of their skill and dedication.

Even with superior technology and training, modern day military infiltration units require weeks of observation and planning, coupled with insurmountable advantages such as satellite imagery, to be able to sneak in and get the job done. It needs all sorts of total support both near and away from the scene to work.

[EDIT2] The era during which the ninja supposedly existed, were the Warring States period of Japan -- absolutely the most paranoid years of Japan. There are countless town records of how the townsfolk accused wandering travellers, merchants, monks, nomads, ronin, etc etc.. as being spies, and simply the local watchmen would beat them to death and throw their bodies away. Any outsider would immediately be viewed with extremely suspicious eyes, with local police forces trying to keep tabs on them. Even just lurking into the local tavern to get drinks and start asking questions, could be enough for someone to come and arrest you in those days.

[EDIT3] The only form of successful assassinations in real life were usually by solicitating traitors from the inside. Most assassinations aren't even planned well in the first place, usually coming from disgruntled retainers or employees. The historically notable cases of assassinations from outside agents are usually concentrated on the medieval Hashishins of the Old Man of the Mountains -- and usually their rate of success stems from the fact that the assassins simply gave up trying to safely return from the attempt in the first place -- effectively making them the medieval equivalent of the suicide bomber.





 

kweassa

Sergeant at Arms
Bromden said:
Yeah, but the case of the 47 ronin wasn't an assassination, it was a vendetta.

..nor were they "ninja", in the first place. They were samurai retainers who lost their master due to political circumstances, and thus fallen as "ronin".

They lost their master, so as retainers, swore to avenge him. Formed out a conspiracy to murder, waited, and then struck when the target was least defended, overwhelmed the guards in force, killed their sworn enemy, and then carried his head to their deceased master's grave and then committed mass suicide as a form of protest.

Hardly "ninjacraft" at all. If we call that ninja, we might as call Lee Harvey Oswald or John Wilkes Booth a "ninja" as well.





 

Bromden

Archduke
Yes, those problems are called "enemies". You don't have to be a trained ninja to be visible in front of a white wall.
 
1.How much of the walls were white? The first 6feet or the whole thing?
2.The greatest effect of such a measure would be observable at night, where the contrast would be many times greater thanks to it.
3.Conventional enemies wouldn't be bypassing guards mens' eyes and derping around next to the walls, day or night.

Rare infiltrations aren't impossible- bribing and disguise can go a long way. Not so much pop black-clad super soldiers, but real espionage could have inspired it.
 

Bromden

Archduke
1. Google some Japanese castles, most of the walls were white.
2. Yes.
3. Define conventional and unconventional enemies. And the derping part... if you scaled the walls of an enemy in nighttime, you have to cross the area between the wall and the castle. That's when you are most vulnerable, especially if the walls are white.
The infiltrator(s) can be spies, assassins, or the gate opener vanguard party of a surprise attack. The latter are "conventional" enemies.

X. Good luck bribing a Japanese castle guard, especially in wartime.
 
1. Well, point was, if they weren't worried about climbers scaling the walls, it'd be a lot easier & cheaper to only paint the bottoms.
1a. Building walls or ramparts/fortifications?
2. That's the thing though; those spies and assassins are what one could call "ninja".
2a. If that vanguard had any special training, I'd call them unconventional.

X. Not all guards are as loyal as they appear.
Xa. One would target civilian workers, not the guards; servants, cooks, that kind of thing.

Y. Whether a wall-scaling vanguard or 'ninja', whatever it was must have been rather prolific if it warranted a new standard of defense.
 

Bromden

Archduke
1. If you have walls and stuff between them to defend from others, climbers will be a threat.
2. They weren't called ninja in historical sources, they were called spies and assassins. It's because they most probably weren't trained in some secret martial art, they learned skills instead that was important for spies or assassins.
3. That vanguard training consisted of getting the order "go climb that wall". I don't know of any elite infiltration troops in feudal Japan.

X. It's not about loyalty, it's about what they lose. Not only the guard's life is at stake, but all of his family's too. And if his new friends win, no one will trust him among them, so the chance for losing his honour is quite big. I'd think getting a guard on your side is impossible without serious blackmail.

XX. That is more likely.

Y. The white walls were not a new standard of defense, but a good idea to enhance the defense.
 
1. True, but just having guards on the walls is usually enough. You don't see European kings painting their castles white. (or at least I haven't heard of it)
2. Fair enough, but I'm more inclined to the broader definition of 'ninja'- the myth criteria not being applied to the original source. So this's an argument of semantics.
3. Heh, also fair enough. Conventional troops doing unconventional things. Couldn't have expected a good success rate with those..

X. Not every guard has a family, or cares about it. Just getting a nice nestegg, skirting under the radar and getting rid of superiors they don't agree with sounds like a feasible plan. If one knows/bribes the right people, one could find suitable candidates amongst the guard.

Y. If that's true, fair enough. But it seems expensive for an unnecessary enhancement- on rough stone, there's no way the paint would last more than a few years. And one would have to wash it regularly to keep it lambent.
 
Top Bottom