BEAST - Bannerlord Early Access Skirmish Tournament

BEAST is the first Bannerlord Skirmish tournament in Europe.

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Bannerlord
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English (UK)
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New Season of Beast?

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Gonthran

Veteran
M&BWBWF&SNW
When 4-5 division work totally fine without any drama and only the "top" one doesn't then I highly doubt the problem is with the admins.
They're putting in alot of effort for you to be able to have a competitive tournament.
Perhaps a BEAST without like half the players in this "A" division would be the far better option :xf-wink:
Well if we kick out the team in div A, they can go make their own tournament like that.
And every other div can actually enjoy the tournament without any Drama.
@Aeronwen @TheBard ✂ Don't listen to the bark. you did a fantastic job, and the fact that no one did the same thing just show the amount of work and time you need to put in and have something enjoyable
 
Here is the rule addition that I recommend (this was talked about in the HINQ discord, so I am basically paraphrasing from there and am also adding more stuff, and complicating it a bit more by giving the disconnected side the choice) (of course the wording can be reworked, I just attempt to explain the concept):

1. In case there is a crash during a round, the team that had the crash can request a restart. This rule comes into effect only if the crashed side requests it.

2. When the crash occurs (before or during the fights started) the restart may be prompted. The team that had the disconnected player may decide to keep fighting for that round and then ask for a restart after the round in which the disconnect happened (so disconnected team does not lose the chance to ask for a restart and if they had the advantage on the disconnect round, they can keep fighting)

2a. If the disconnect happened during a team fight, to prevent any confusions or disagreements, the team that had a disconnect will have to cease fighting (if the disconnect occurred during a team fight and they want a restart) (not all members of a team will know each rule in detail so, its not a crime if they do not stop fighting, but the IGL must stop fighting and write in chat they want a restart). Lets say the disconnected team is winning 2-0 and has the economy advantage, they can, if they choose, try to win with 5v6, but if they want a restart, the score immediately goes to 2-1 and the opposing side gets all the econ possible (so 300 gold vs 380 gold).

2b. If the team that was winning 2-0 (the score is just an example not part of the rule) decided to try to win with 5v6 but ended up losing the round to make it 2-1, they can request a restart for the following round, but the score goes up to 2-2 and the other side gets the max eco advantage (so 300 vs 380 gold).

2c. If the team that had a disconnected player decided to keep fighting when the disconnection occurred and they ended up winning the round, a restart may be made without needing rule 5. Just go ahead a restart the game with no need to watch for economy.2d. If the disconnection happens at the very start of the set (before anyone has any score or kills) the disconnected side may request a restart without any penalty (I feel like this is a bit open to exploitation since, if the opponent side sees a disconnection, they can decide to pounce on the disconnected side to get some score and kills in order to try to demand them to give 1 point and start with economy, so IGLs need to immediately request a restart and start leaving the game, before an enemy couch kills one of their guys).

3. If both sides had a crash, then it is not necessary for both sides to agree to a restart. If one side wants a restart, a restart is given (with eco adjustments) as long as it is in line with the aforementioned rules.

4. On the restarted round (lets call this round murder round), disconnected side will drop all their weapons (this is not a rule, do it however you want, just make sure opponent side has no deaths and the disconnected side has no respawns left) and let the opponent team kill them (as many times as it takes) to ensure max eco for the opponent side and minimum eco for the disconnected side.

5. On the murder round the disconnected side will spawn as the cheapest units and spawn as many times as they can. At the end of the murder round each player in the opponent team must have same number of kills, and score. So there is no room for exploitation. (this rule is put due to an exploitation that may occur: Some people are competing at the stats table and the team that did not have a disconnect can easily pump up the numbers of one of their players by making them kill all the disconnected side. So we either do not count the murder round as part of stats (which could be complicated I imagine, if I am wrong rule 5 is not needed I guess) or use this rule.

I think these cover all angles and prevent exploitation of the rule. Let me know if I missed something, we can add it, discuss it etc.
 
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Krisee

Sergeant
Lets make a battle tournament, 6vs6, warband style. No bull**** respawn with many life.
Battle is less balanced compared to skirmish, so for this reason a worse choice for a tournament.
Aserai is the main example, The infantry on single life doesn't compare at all to a sergeant for example. Khuzait has a similar situation on infantry
 

Koso

Squire
Find these two then who are around to watch on both discords of RM and DM. And wait for them to be challenged to be biased and a huge dumpster fire burning bc of some petty dispute from 2 years ago.
I absolutely would understand if everyone would politely decline this "honor".
From RM side I can confirm that, it will not happen. We are not seeking any drama or hostile attitude.
DIV A is the main source of dramas yes, but I've heard about people from other divs playing under different names and even using cheats. So being able to call for referees would be a good option
Also referees are very good idea I would say.
 

IceNoVa

The Kaiser
Global Moderator
WBM&BVCNWWF&S
How about different admins for div A only? It sounds like everyone else is happy.
That is a terrible idea and is going about anything that makes a fun and fair competition just that. Like who would even want that? It'll be players from the div A teams and the bias calls go all-around because, as has been well displayed in this thread on occasion, a significant portion of players in that division are incapable of engaging with eachother in a way that would be acceptable for admin staff to do.
It's not like nobody knows who is causing the most issues anyway, so the simple way to handle things is to just enforce the rules in a strict manner and just ban the usual suspects in perpetuity. Drastic, but they very clearly do not respond to leniency.
Just make sure that is clear to everyone and no short-cuts or exceptions.
 

TheBard ✂

Salt Knight
Master Knight
How about different admins for div A only? It sounds like everyone else is happy.
This idea is perfect. Let them take care of themselves! Since they obviously don't give a **** about the rest of the community and just spit downwards anyway, keeping them completely seperate from the rest so the others can actually enjoy their tournament is a nice idea! Let's also disable promotion into and out of Division A completely alongside it. Two seperate BEAST winners, the Winners of the Toxic and the Division B winners! ?

That is a terrible idea and is going about anything that makes a fun and fair competition just that. Like who would even want that? It'll be players from the div A teams and the bias calls go all-around because, as has been well displayed in this thread on occasion, a significant portion of players in that division are incapable of engaging with eachother in a way that would be acceptable for admin staff to do.
So what? This significant portion wants to be among themselves, let them ruin it for themselves as well then please. I'm just sorry for the rest of the sane people, but sacrifices must be made.

It's not like nobody knows who is causing the most issues anyway, so the simple way to handle things is to just enforce the rules in a strict manner and just ban the usual suspects in perpetuity. Drastic, but they very clearly do not respond to leniency.
Just make sure that is clear to everyone and no short-cuts or exceptions.
A clear threat that any further bull****tery by those elements will not be tolerated and met with such consequence would most likely work wonders and leave the ultima ratio to be just that.
 
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Ikea Knight

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I think before next BEAST we need a clear discussion on whether custom crosshairs for this game are okay or not and what is considered to be a cheat. Also, as I already stated in another thread, we might need to return Referees and rule for them to join the teams discord during the game and watch the Discord stream since the last tournaments showed that rules can be ignored if a team is not happy with them.
I don't think it's necessary to have this discussion again.
It's not part of the base game so it's forbidden by our rules.
The main argument for it seemed to be that it's not an unfair advantage because it doesn't do much.
But if it doesn't do much why not just play without it?

About the referees:
Most matches are played on Sunday or Saturday. If there were only 5 matches on a Sunday we'd need 10 seperate referees.
So for 5 matches there is a minimum of 70 occupied players - and often we have even more matches. Our community isn't that big and teams generally already have issues to schedule one match per week.Then you'd need to look for fair referees with a good understanding of the rules. For an obvious example you can't have Hairless be a referee on an RM match. That's a conflict of interests. Also keep in mind that a lot of people wouldn't even be interested in refereeing.
Also how much power should a referee have? Should they be able to make decisions on the fly? What if two referees watching one match disagree with each other?
Also a referee can only watch one stream so whatever happens offscreen.
I honestly understand why people want it and I can also see some of it's perks but I just don't think it's the answer to all the problems people make it out to be. But I obviously I also know that there is problems with our decsionmaking so far- most importantly that our process is really slow.

@Aeronwen I'm still waiting to replace you as the BEAST admin since all you're good at is incompetence
@Aeronwen Can we vote you out? Many people don't want to see you as admin.
I'll just say it this once. If you come to my house and piss on my carpet you're getting kicked out. Beast had a lot of helpers here and there but the three main contributers were Bard, Aero and me. Even though everbody is free to join the tournament, we are still the hosts. I don't care how great a player somebody is, if you can't behave you'll be banned from the tournament. We have been way to lax with some people here in the past. You can be an ******* whereever you want but in this group and during the matches I want people to behave.

Lets make a battle tournament, 6vs6, warband style. No bull**** respawn with many life.
I like the idea of a battle tournament.
But I just don't think we have enough custom servers to host all the matches on one day. Maybe in the future though.
 

Ikea Knight

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I think these cover all angles and prevent exploitation of the rule. Let me know if I missed something, we can add it, discuss it etc.

I started to reply to everysingle of your suggestions but there are the same two major issues with all of them so I don't really have to go too much into detail with it:

The team that has a crash can't force a restart. Both teams need to agree. Otherwise it's really easy to fake a crash. Your suggestions invite people to just "crash" (or leave) the game if they are leaving. You're making crashes an powerful abusable tool.

The other issue is time management.
Let's say a team with british players and a team with russian player decide to play on a Sunday evening 8 pm CEST. So it's only 7pm local time for the brits and already 9 local time pm for the russians. A match takes about 1 hour but often even longer.
So if you add a bunch of restarts to that a game can easily take 2 hours and longer.
So for one of the teams it gest really late and they have to leave. Which makes one team winner by defaut.


That is why have these rules:


§ 12 Match Server

(1) All matches will be played on a European server unless both teams agree otherwise.
(2) Teams must use the clan system to to play a match.
(3) Either team may restart the match during the warm-up phase up to 3 times each, but players leaving a match once play has started may face consequences.


§ 14 Gathering Players

(1) Both teams have 10 minutes to gather their players and make/join a clan match. If a team fails to turn up by 10 minutes after the agreed match start, the other team must contact an admin immediately and will be awarded a default win. A team that fails to turn up for the first time will be given a warning, the second time they will be suspended from the tournament.
(2) Teams are not obligated to wait more than 10 minutes between maps and sets and should contact an admin if there is a prolonged wait.

I know these rules put teams with a disconnected player at a disadvantage. But that's just tough luck. If a tennisplayer injures himself and can't continue he simply loses. I guess that's the closest analogy I can give you.
 
The team that has a crash can't force a restart. Both teams need to agree. Otherwise it's really easy to fake a crash. Your suggestions invite people to just "crash" (or leave) the game if they are leaving. You're making crashes an powerful abusable tool.
Hmm, the rule protects against exploitation though. If the disconnected team wants a restart due to a disconnect, the opponent team gets 1 point added to the round and they start with maximum gold while the disconnected side gets minimum gold. I cannot see why the disconnected team would exploit this, they have to give 1 round and max gold for having a crash. The only way I can see an exploitation is, if the opponent side has some kind of tool to make the other team have players disconnect from the game which would give them free points. I do not think a tool like that exists.

The usual issue with a restart that teams have (the team that did not have the disconnect) is usually the economy advantage. It could also be that they want an easy win against 5 or less people. But with this rule you protect against the second reasoning. For the first scenario the not-disconnected team wants to keep playing because they earned their econ advantage, which is understandable. With this ruleset, economy reasoning is made moot, because the econ advantage is given to them when they are given a free 1 point.

Again, the reason we should put a rule for this is to force teams to restart, as long as the disconnected side desires it. Forcing is key, because if you do not force the non-disconnected team, fair-play does not always happen. It really is unfair to have to play with a player or more missing. This ruleset levels the playing field.

Now, on to the time constraints. If a player keeps crashing and the disconnected (crashed) team has to keep restarting, that means they keep giving the opponent team (the non-crashed team) free points. I would wager that the crashing team will do their best to switch out the crashing player if it occurs more than 2 times. If they do not have enough players to replace the crashing culprit they can elect to play with 5 players (which is within the scope of the rules I typed). I think its fair.
 
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LaPache

Knight at Arms
WBNWVCM&BWF&S
This idea is perfect. Let them take care of themselves! Since they obviously don't give a **** about the rest of the community and just spit downwards anyway, keeping them completely seperate from the rest so the others can actually enjoy their tournament is a nice idea! Let's also disable promotion into and out of Division A completely alongside it. Two seperate BEAST winners, the Winners of the Toxic and the Division B winners! ?
Right! Let's have Hairless, Jufasto, Gotha, Popo and Spooky as admins for div A! They'd make a great team!
I don't think it's necessary to have this discussion again.
It's not part of the base game so it's forbidden by our rules.
The main argument for it seemed to be that it's not an unfair advantage because it doesn't do much.
But if it doesn't do much why not just play without it?

About the referees:
Most matches are played on Sunday or Saturday. If there were only 5 matches on a Sunday we'd need 10 seperate referees.
So for 5 matches there is a minimum of 70 occupied players - and often we have even more matches. Our community isn't that big and teams generally already have issues to schedule one match per week.Then you'd need to look for fair referees with a good understanding of the rules. For an obvious example you can't have Hairless be a referee on an RM match. That's a conflict of interests. Also keep in mind that a lot of people wouldn't even be interested in refereeing.
Also how much power should a referee have? Should they be able to make decisions on the fly? What if two referees watching one match disagree with each other?
Also a referee can only watch one stream so whatever happens offscreen.
I honestly understand why people want it and I can also see some of it's perks but I just don't think it's the answer to all the problems people make it out to be. But I obviously I also know that there is problems with our decsionmaking so far- most importantly that our process is really slow.
Ref's would mostly work for knockout matches and ofc they'd have to be respected by the community to be nonbiased so definitely not from RM or DM.


I like the idea of a battle tournament.
But I just don't think we have enough custom servers to host all the matches on one day. Maybe in the future though.
Gotha could probably host enough servers but first TW has to fix the mode itself.
 

Koso

Squire
I wouldn't mind the names from other teams. If Hariless will have be objective against us, then its okey. Same for me I would be objective against them. We have been in mud fight with him like start of the game. However, we don't have to keep it up for one more century. There is no one literal saint among us, so none of us should claim theirselves as victim. We should able to peace each other when the time is come so, I offered my piece of cake.
 

Silvernj

Grandmaster Knight
So for 5 matches there is a minimum of 70 occupied players - and often we have even more matches. Our community isn't that big and teams generally already have issues to schedule one match per week.Then you'd need to look for fair referees with a good understanding of the rules. For an obvious example you can't have Hairless be a referee on an RM match. That's a conflict of interests. Also keep in mind that a lot of people wouldn't even be interested in refereeing.
There's no need to cover all the matches, this is an overkill. There are certain matches that might be an issue to cheating tho so referees upon request are enough. I doubt that in a week there can be more than 1 or 2 such matches in all the divisions. Otherwise let's play with fakes in roster who can be filled with any player possible :smile:
 

TheBard ✂

Salt Knight
Master Knight
Right! Let's have Hairless, Jufasto, Gotha, Popo and Spooky as admins for div A! They'd make a great team!
Three names of the above already give me headache to varying degrees, so that is perfectly fine for the shark tank. I am personally fine if they are limited to ruining their own division! ?

If I count all the incidents that were produced by our "glorious" Division A in the past there is a chance of around 50% that someone in there gets bored and will start to mess with the tournament in BEAST 8.

Ban Div A and lets play
Gotta say I commend your spirit! (y)

Division A? Claims of ghost players, modification to get stupid dots in the middle of your screen (you guys most likely have modern screens, come on...), matchfixing...
The other Divisions in comparison? People get zapped for forgetting to put a team tag in front of their name.

Get a grip.

There's no need to cover all the matches, this is an overkill. There are certain matches that might be an issue to cheating tho so referees upon request are enough. I doubt that in a week there can be more than 1 or 2 such matches in all the divisions. Otherwise let's play with fakes in roster who can be filled with any player possible :smile:
This sounds like jolly good fun. Count me in, I'm volunteering for being a referee, I always wanted to spend one el clasico listening to Jufasto screaming "push soldiers!" live in their discord!
 
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