New Character Creation proposals for 1.34 (brainstorming)

[Hister]

Update 24.5.2011: Added some text for Childhood options.

Hi there fellow Brytenwalda consumers! 

Thank you for visiting this thread.​

As you have noticed Idibil&Co. are very prone to listening to different advices players give about this mod and if a good one crops out they also implement it. So many good new things suggested by players have been realized for next major version that everybody is eager to get it in his/her hands asap.

I was asked by Idibil to help him out balance the current setup according to my suggestion. I haven't played this mod much so I don't consider myself as an authority on this field at all. On top of that I haven't read much about historical period portrayed in the mod. I figured that the more people are involved in this the better the result will be.

I'm seeking advice especially from more seasoned/veteran Brytenwalda players who have the balance of the game in their blood and also from good connoisseurs of the period. 

I proposed to the dev team to change the current character creation settings to make starting stats for different classes much more pronounced so that the choice really tunnels your style of play for many levels to come (and not just first few levels as already stated). This will by my opinion give the mod bigger replaying value and immersion.

The differences between different options to choose from should really be felt considerably so that when you choose certain option you would intuitively know what it's major pluses and minuses are. Different options to choose from should also be renamed to be more in line with historical situation back then.

On top of that a possible revision of starting items character possesses should be thought of which would fit with the chosen variation.

Good note from a forumite:

There should still be a handful of "best" starting settings for players.  Coming from a good family in a powerful tribe and being brought up in important roles would clearly result in a "better" character than someone who was uneducated, malnourished and generally neglected throughout their life.  The weaker starts would provide a more challenging game for the experienced players.

[size=10pt]CHAPTER 1 - RENAMING CHARACTER CREATION OPTIONS[/size]

Our first task in Chapter 1 should be to make options at character creation screen as close to historical reality and thus as immersive as possible.
What do I mean by that?

Currently we have Gender/Nationality/Parent/Childhood/Job/Reason/Religion - they can be renamed to something completely different.

Gender

Spoiler

- is OK, maybe rename it to men/woman. Male and female sounds to sterile *If possible (the code seems to suggest it is possible) I would exclude woman character to be able to chose some of the further possibilities to be closer in line with historical data. We'll discuss this later.

A text that opens if you choose a men option should be something like this:
"Being a new born son the family sword was ritually put in your hands in order to show your inheritance and the luck of your family that passed on you."
A text that opens if you choose a woman option should be something like this:
"Being a new born girl family celebrated your arrival on this world and did all things necessary to ensure you grow into a strong woman with a solid stance in the society."

Nationality

Spoiler

- is questionable since the word as such was invented much later in history and usually describes modern day nation-states.
Proposed renaming to Ethnicity, Culture, Kin, People (fits the most).

We can rename "Foreigner" and "Frisian" to something else. Wouldn't a Frisian be a Foreigner also for islanders?
A suggestion was that we can get rid of Frisians and Foreigners and rename those two to Theod (to denote members of continental and Scandinavian Germanic tribes) and Roman (to denote anything else - the natives of old Roman provinces, even Greeks and Celts would be collectively known as Roman, or amongst the Anglosaxons as Wylisc/Wælisc).

These two groups together should cover more or less every possible origin for a character while still making the forigner option a little less general.

Parent

Spoiler

- should be renamed to "Father".

I've read that Britons practised sending their sons to foster families. If you know of any other chosable ethnicity that practised that please say so.

If you choose to be of Britonic ethnicity and a male then the text should say:
"Your father was a local lord's retinue and proved his battle prowess on many occasions. He was always highly regarded by his lord which praised his deeds on every feast (*this part of the text varies depending on the social rank of your father). When you were just a few years old you were sent to a foster family while all your sisters stayed at home as is an old custom in Britonic society. You managed to see your sisters and the rest of your family only much later when many years have passed so you share more affinity with your foster family then with your original one."

If you chose to be of Britonic ethnicity and a girl then the text says something like:
"Your father was a local lord's retinue and proved his battle prowess on many occasions. He was always highly regarded by his lord which praised his deeds on every feast (*this part of the text varies depending on the social rank of your father). When you were just a few years old all your brothers were sent to the foster family as is an old custom in Britonic society and you met them again only much later when many years have passed.

Religion

Spoiler

- should be inserted here instead of being the last on the list since the story would be more fluid that way.
Instead of "Your religion is..." in the story of your character it should be written something like:
"Your family baptised you into Roman/Celtic Christianity and you eagerly listened to all the stories told by the priest when he visited your settlement. You were and you still are devoted to that religion.

"Your family believed in old Celtic/Germanic gods and you soaked plenty of their stories told in the evenings when family gathered around the fireplace. You are a staunch believer in old ways."

Brief general description of each chosen religion might be added for better perception of how things stood back then.

Suggestion regarding how your chosen religion affects the gameplay (if possible make effects more pronounced then they are now):

I think this should influence how villages, towns, and other lords view you when starting a game.

CP / CP = ++ to how much they like you.
CP / GP = + to how much they like you.
CP / CC = - to how much they dislike you.
CP / RC = -- to how much they dislike you.

So if you were Gaelic (Irish) Celtic Pagan you would have a double positive boost to places and people who shared your alignment. Likewise if all Roman Christians would dislike you twice as much.

And vice-versa with the other religions. This would add a bit more fun and challenge to the game. These should be permanent effects as well unless you changed religions. Etc.

Childhood

Spoiler

- is OK. Upbringing also suggested.

Job

Spoiler

- should be renamed to something else, less modern sounding - proposals are Adulthood, Occupation, Social status, Vocation. Vocation fit's the best.
A forumer note:

"Social status" is a very different thing from occupation and would be much less useful for determining a character's stats.  In the current scheme, "social status" really comes from the "parent" option.

Reason

Spoiler

- is fine. A suggestion was also to rename it to fate. We can also change it to "Personality" and change the text accordingly. Options under Personality could be dominant, aggressive, shy, etc. Any ideas?
If we stick to Reasons then more plausible reasons for why one sets on his mission should be provided. War is definitely one of the main reasons why someone would find himself alone due to his family being killed and his settlement burned for example. Another is being exiled for whatever reason.

I'm personaly more inclined towards different personality traits (we have to think of 6 of them) then reason since I would make the following plausible story for all character variations in the last category as the final text attached to the personality trait:

"People who know you well say that you are (add personal trait). For quite  some time you lived according to the expectations of the community but things have slowly started to change. Tragedy struck when after 3 consecutive years of poor harvest strange disease took out the weakest members of your kin. In addition to that the bloodfeud that lasted for almost 2 generations escalated to never before seen heights. Many of those who were especially close to you were either killed or enslaved and sold to some far away places you haven't heard of before. Circumstances sparred you your life but now you found yourself in most dire of circumstances. You have no home to return to, you can seek no advice from the elders when important matters arise, ..., you are all alone and fragile. You managed to hastily took your basic possessions and quickly disappear in the thick wood." 

We also have to rename options under those main categories.


What possibly needs a lot of historical input are the options under Family/Childhood and Job that player can choose from. Let's discuss what the major social classes were back then. How was society stratified? What people did to earn for the living then and also let's see if any differences between different ethnicities existed. I'm not very familiar with how the society looked like so I would ask you to help me on this one.

A suggestion from a forumite:

Spoiler

We could add in Bandit, Survivalist, etc type packages. Each with skills that would suit them. By having packages and each one clearly defined you can easily tailor make your character to one specific starting role or mix and match as you see fit. It is basically the old system but defined a bit clearer. Nothing really changes other than instead of having 10 sub options for say job you sort of combine a few of them into various packages. Such as page, retainer, etc become Leader Package, etc

Hister thinks this would partially ruin the historical immersion.


Suggested Father category options with the text:

Spoiler

In Anglo-Saxon society 4 major class ranks existed which can be used:

-nobles (kings, male relatives to the king, governors of an area, noble king's retinue, land possessing lower nobles)

- non-nobles (kings retinue, lords retinue, fully free rent paying farmers)

- free men/freed men (differently ranking free or freed peasants who have to cultivate differently sized land for their lords)

- slaves

I have yet to find how Britonic/Irish/Pict societies were stratified - please help enlightening me. If needed we will have to merge different class ranks over different cultures but I think those 4 major ones fit with all the cultures  don't you think?


According to above findings I suggest the following options under "Father" category to choose from (overall we have 7 free spots):

1. Noble
"Your father was of lower noble class and possessed five hides of land.  He owed military service to the king and went to war with his small retinue whenever the horns of war were sounded."

Substantial renown given, half of that necessary for entering one's faction. (How much is that?)

2. Lord's retinue
"Your father was a local lord's retinue and proved his battle prowess on many occasions. He was always highly regarded by his lord which praised his deeds on every feast."

One third of renown nobles get is given.

3. Fully free men
"Your father was a free man who was paying rent to his overlord and owed him labour services in exchange for the given land. He owned a horse and occasionally served as a mounted messenger when his lord was involved in a war but was most of the time deployed as a foot soldier where he had to rely on his shield and spear."

One third of renown lord's retinue get is given.

4. Freed man
"Your father was a freed man who owed his lord a substantial amount of work but also had to pay rent in return for the provided land, tools and stock." 

One third of renown fully free men get is given.

5. Unfree peasant
"Your father was an unfree peasant who was tied to his lord’s estate for all his life. He lived a very simple tough life."

One third of renown freed men get is given.

6. Slave
"Your father was a slave to a local lord and had to work hard in order not to be beaten."

No renown is given. Negative honour is given.

7. Outlaw/Bandit
"Your father was an outlaw, a bandit who often risked his life in order to survive. He was hiding in the woods ever since he was accused of wrongdoing by the local community. Your mother often brought him the most needed necessities but most of the time he got food and other stuff he needed from robbing and stealing. He was eventually killed by the hand of a lesser lord's retinue who was sent to sweep the forests and get rid of the pest.   

Just a small amount of renown is given. Substantial negative honour is given.

Suggested Childhood options (9 different options):


I've come up with 9 childhood classes and proposed which of the attributes, skills, renown and honour will be allotted to them. I haven't yet decided for exact numbers. Some options have a text, some not yet.

Have in mind that childhood options only give approximately 1/3 of what Occupation category gives when allotting attributes, skills, renown, honour.

My philosophy is that clearly defined characters (an example would be Noble Father, Noblemen's Child, Noble options chosen for a Noble character or Slave father, Slave, Slave as a profound Slave character) have to actually be felt considerably when starting the game. The differences have to be huge. To achieve this goal we have to allot more attribute and skill points then what we are used to. Implications being that when a clearly defined Noble character is chosen we don't feel like we are total noobs on the battlefield or as clearly defined Slave character we feel great pains on the battlefield and have to work much more harder in order to survive. In turn this will create gameplay diversity, bigger immersion and plausibility which are alfa and omega of gaming. 

Proposals for Childhood below:

Spoiler

Options range from the easiest (Brought Up In a Noble Court) to the hardest (Cleric Acolyte) in terms of starting gameplay difficulty.

"Brought Up In a Noble Court"
- Men: athletics, strength, charisma, agility, leadership, riding, weapon master, power strike, power throw, shield, one handed, two handed, polearms, renown, spotting
-Woman: charisma, agility, leadership, riding, weapon master, power strike, power throw, shield, one handed, two handed, polearms, first aid, renown

Text for men:
As a boy you learned how to ride a horse, how to use weapons properly, how to motivate and lead men on the battlefield and how to make a name of oneself. When feasts were in progress you carefully observed how to properly entertain lord's followers. You were present when disputes among commoners were settled in the court. In your pastimes you enjoyed rough and boisterous sport games such as wrestling, weapon sparring, weight-lifting and horse-racing.

Text for woman:
As a girl you learned how to ride a horse and how to run a household and property when men were not around. You were often eagerly observing how your brothers were practising with their weapons and secretly mimicked their attacking and defending moves with whatever tools you could find. You became a big connoisseur of lucky charms like magic rhymes, potions, stones or jewels that protect people from evil spirits or sickness. You loved to sew and weave nicely looking ornaments into the tapestry and clothes. You were also sometimes allowed to be purring beverages to important men on the feasts which made you feel very proud.

*This naming is probably too long. If you can come up with anything shorter I'm changing it.


"Retainer's Apprentice"
- athletics, strength, agility, weapon master, power strike, power throw, shield, one handed, two handed, polearms, renown, trainer, looting, iron flash, spotting
-Woman: athletics, strength, agility, weapon master, power strike, power throw, shield, one handed, two handed, polearms, trainer, iron flash, spotting, renown (more renown given then to male counterpart since just being a woman gives you a bigger name if you are a warrior)


"Cottager"
- athletics, strength, agility, power throw, power draw, one handed, polearms, archery, shield, tracking, path finding, spotting, iron flash
-Woman: athletics, strength, agility,  power draw, one handed, polearms, archery, shield, first aid, wound treatment

Text for men:
As a child you learned how to chop down trees with an axe, how to plough a field, and how to use a spear with a shield in a battle. You were fishing, collecting birds' eggs, caching wild ducks in nets and hunting deer and wild boar with the bow and javelins along other men from the village. In your pastimes you loved doing sports, especially swimming races where you usually excelled. You were sent to herd cattle and sheep with your dogs which kept a lookout for wolves. You were thought how to defend yourself against aggressive wild animals. Sometimes you were sent to far away pastures for days where you had to find enough food in the nature to sustain yourself. You always carried a sling and a bow with you in order to hunt wild animals for food. You lived with the nature and knew it's every secret. The great outdoors felt like a home to you. Throughout the years you developed a tough skin since you often had only provisional shelters to protect you from bad weather.

Text for woman:
As a child you were given ordinary girl's tasks and in process developed skills needed to run the household such as weaving cloth, cooking, making cheese, brewing ale, collecting sticks for firewood and fetching water from a well. You learned how to heal wounds with the herbs that grew in the vicinity which made you a very sought of person amongst the local boys who often got injured or sick while playing outside. All this wasn't enough for you though so you asked your brothers to secretly teach you the art of wielding a spear and an axe. Although you could hardly hold them due to their weight and size you slowly learned a few tricks. When nobody was watching you also took your brother's bows and practised with them.


"Men: Merchant's Apprentice / Woman: Market Seller"
- Men: inventory management, trade, riding, charisma, polearm, persuasion, path finding
-Woman: inventory management, trade, riding, charisma, polearm, persuasion, path finding

Text for men:
As a child you apprenticed to a wealthy merchant, picking up the trade over years of travelling to distant lands. You soon became adept at the art of buying low, selling high and leaving the customer thinking they'd gotten the better deal. When moving to different markets you were allowed to ride a mule. Sometimes time passed very slow on the road so you came up with all sorts of stories such as that you were riding with that mule to a battlefield where your brave deeds would have been sung by bards for decades to come. Not that martial arts were foreign to you - merchant thought you how to fend off possible intruders with a spear. 

Text for woman:
As a child you were thought how to make diary products and sell them at the markets and you soon became adept at the art of buying low, selling high and leaving the customer thinking they'd gotten the better deal. When going to different markets you were allowed to ride a mule. Sometimes time passed very slow on the road so you came up with all sorts of stories such as that you were riding a white gracious horse and that all the girls were envious of you.  You were also thought how to fend off possible intruders with a spear. 


"Blacksmith's Apprentice"
- Men: strength, weapon master, power strike, one handed, two handed, trade, persuasion
- Woman: strength, weapon master, power strike, one handed, two handed, trade, persuasion *not historical so if you have any ideas do let me know.

Text for men:
As a child you apprenticed with a local blacksmith to learn a trade. It was hard and dangerous at first but after years of hard work and study under your new master you learned a lot about different weapons and tools that usually only the richer people could afford. Strike after strike on the heated metal made your arms proverbially strong as iron. You were able to  test weapons you made and your master showed you how to properly wield swords and axes of all shapes and sizes. Not only were you helping make expensive products but you also sold them for as high price as you could manage.

Text for woman:
As a child you apprenticed with a local blacksmith although this was unheard of for a girl and people seemed to be very surprised when they saw you doing your work. It was hard and dangerous at first but after years of hard work and study under your new master you learned a lot about different weapons and tools that usually only the richer people could afford. Strike after strike on the heated metal made your arms proverbially strong as iron. You were able to  test weapons you made and your master showed you how to properly wield swords and axes of all shapes and sizes. Not only were you helping make expensive products but you also sold them for as high price as you could manage.


"Bard's Apprentice"
- Men: one handed, polearms, athletics, charisma, intelligence, renown, persuasion
-Woman: one handed, polearms, athletics, charisma, intelligence, renown, persuasion *not historical so if you have any ideas do let me know.

Text for men and woman:
As a child you were taken under the wing of a wandering bard, entertainer going from a nobleman to a nobleman setting up shows on feasts. It was a life of hard work but over time you became a performer well capable of attracting a crowd. You staged different fights with real weapons and thus became very familiar with them. In addition you learned plenty of songs and stories by heart.


"Slave"
- Men: strenght, agility, one handed, polearms, looting,  iron flash, negative honour, minus renown*
-Woman: strenght, agility, one handed, polearms, looting,  iron flash, negative honour, minus renown
*(if you had any renown prior to choosing this option it gets smaller afterwards)

Text for men and woman:

As a child you were a slave and lived a very tough life. Work in the woods and fields made you strong and also fast due to all the running you had to do when ordered around. Being hungry often you had to learn how to get food. One of the most dangerous way was by stealing it but you had to make sure nobody saw you doing it. Eventually you were spotted and in turn tortured by your owner as an example to others.  Being beaten often made your skin tick, you believed you can survive anything.

"Stonemason's Apprentice"
- Men: one handed, engineer, intelligence
-Woman: one handed, engineer, intelligence *not historical so if you have any ideas do let me know.



"Cleric Acolyte"
- Men: intelligence, first aid, wound treatment, surgery, honour
-Woman: intelligence, first aid, wound treatment, surgery, honour

Text for for men:
In your early ages you were sent to live in the nearest monastery to be trained as a monk. As such you were one of the few boys who learned how to read and write. Life in the monastery was strict and there wasn't much time to play with other boys but you spent time in prayer, studied and worked in the fields and workshops. You were learning how to copy books by hand and decorated the pages in beautiful colours but much more years would have to pass before you would become a master in this art. You learned all sorts of basic healing and a bit of a rudimentary surgery to.

Text for woman:
In your early ages you were sent to live in the nearest monastery to be trained as a nun. As such you were one of the few girls who learned how to read and write. Life in the monastery was strict and there wasn't much time to play with other girls but you spent time in prayer, studied and worked in the fields and workshops. You were learning how to copy books by hand and decorated the pages in beautiful colours but much more years would have to pass before you would become a master in this art. You learned all sorts of basic healing and a bit of a rudimentary surgery to.

Suggested Occupation options (9 different options) :

Occupation category options are the same as Childhood options but give more of the same points then their Childhood counterparts.

Spoiler

Lesser Noble/Lesser Noble's Wife
- Men: athletics, strength, charisma, agility, leadership, riding, weapon master, power strike, power throw, shield, one handed, two handed, polearms, renown, spotting
-Woman: charisma, agility, leadership, riding, weapon master, power strike, power throw, shield, one handed, two handed, polearms, first aid, renown (no spotting given since you weren't directly engaged in any campaigns)

Text for the Lesser Noble (men):
You carried out  many duties to your overlord and the king. In a war you were expected to fulfil your overlord's demands and bring with you a number of trained men which you picked amongst  the upper ranks of the peasantry in the area. You helped oversee the building and maintenance of roads, bridges and fortifications to your overlord by appointing the most able of stonemasons and wood carvers to him. You administered the king's laws and enforced the king's justice, and made sure that the King's and religious taxes were paid on time. When disputes arose amongst the commoners you were the one who had the right to settle them in the court. When not carrying out these duties you amused yourself by hunting in the wilds, practising weapon sparring and horse racing. On feast days or visits from other nobles you sometimes arranged a small feast or some other entertainment for the guests including hiring the bard to sing and tell great stories about the past times.

Text for the Lesser Noble's Wife (woman):
Being a wife to a Lesser Lord meant you had an elevated and solid position in the society. Your husband was often away doing different task for his overlord and in those times you were the one who run the household and belonging property. All the matters had to be discussed with you in the time of your husband's absence. You often joined your husband and his retainers when they went out riding a horse. Although your husband didn't appreciate the fact that you are also interested into martial arts it didn't stop you from practising combat moves with your husband's retinue. They thought of you with a high regard since you proved to be an equal adversary in sparring practices. You are a big connoisseur of lucky charms like magic rhymes, potions, stones or jewels that protect people from evil spirits or sickness. You loved to sew and weave nicely looking ornaments into the tapestry and clothes which made your husband's apparel look strikingly neat. As the highest ranking woman in the household you were honourable cup bearer on the feasts and guest attending them were amazed by your graciousness.


Lesser Lord's retainer
- athletics, strength, agility, weapon master, power strike, power throw, shield, one handed, two handed, polearms, renown, trainer, looting, iron flash, spotting
-Woman: athletics, strength, agility, weapon master, power strike, power throw, shield, one handed, two handed, polearms, trainer, iron flash, spotting, renown (more renown given then to male counterpart since just being a woman gives you a bigger name if you are a warrior)


Fully Free Peasant
- athletics, strength, agility, power throw, power draw, one handed, polearms, archery, shield, tracking, path finding, spotting, iron flash
-Woman: athletics, strength, agility,  power draw, one handed, polearms, archery, shield, first aid, wound treatment

Text for men:
Being  a free men meant you had it laid down easier then lower ranking peasants who had to do all the tasks by themselves. You owned some servants who helped you with the hard work but since you didn't own a lot of land you still had to do variety of tasks all peasants have to do. You had to pay rent to your overlord and owed him labour services in exchange for the given land. When he was involved in a war you answered his call as a foot soldier where you had to rely on your shield and a spear in the tick of a battle. Hunting in the woods alone with your bow and javelins was your favourite activity and it helped bring additional food on the table. You spent a lot of time in the nature and knew it's every secret. The great outdoors felt like a home to you. Throughout the years you developed a tough skin since you often had only provisional shelters to protect you from bad weather. In your pastimes you loved doing a variety of sports with other men.


Merchant

Heeding the call of the open road, you travelled from village to village buying and selling what you could. It was not a rich existence, but you became a master at haggling even the most miserly elders into giving you a good price. Soon, you knew, you would be well-placed to start your own trading empire...

Blacksmith

Stonemason

Priest

Storyteller/Bard

Slave

* We can use Outlaw also but I don't know what option to swap it with?

While we set in stone this chapter we can move on to the next which is deciding what attributes and skills will different options give for the character. We can also include in that second chapter what items will be given to chosen character variations. For one I think that giving a horse which was a very expensive item back then to all the characters is not plausible. Players can as well start on foot don't you think?


[size=10pt]CHAPTER 2 - ALLOTTING POINTS TO ATTRIBUTES AND SKILLS[/size]

Maximum points that can be given to attributes is 30.
All skills can can get as much as 20 points with exception of:
- shield: max 3,
- atletics: max 6,
- power draw, power throw, and strike: max 4

Negative skill points can also be given but you can't give negative attributes.

Have those numbers in mind when deciding how much points you would allot to attributes and skills.

First suggestions regarding the basic attributes allotted to men and women posted below (number of points given to each basic character are just provisional so input from Brytenwalda fans is awaited):

Spoiler

Male - Should have higher starting physical attributes and skills.
Female - Starts with lower physical attributes/skills but has higher non physical ones. (Persuasion, Surgery, Etc.)

Strength

The quality or state of being strong: capacity for exertion or endurance. Players who select male as a gender will start off physically stronger than if they choose to play as a woman. This attribute can be further modified with later character creation choices. These are only starting restrictions as once in game each gender has the ability to reach maximum potential in any attribute.

Men start with a base strength of five while women start with a base strength of three.


Agility

The quality or state of being agile : marked by ready ability to move with quick easy grace. Neither gender will have an advantage over the other in this category. This attribute can be further modified with later character creation choices. These are only starting restrictions as once in game each gender has the ability to reach maximum potential in any attribute.

Both men and women start with a base agility of three.


Intelligence

The ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : reason; also : the skilled use of reason. Neither gender will have an advantage over the other in this category. This attribute can be further modified with later character creation choices. These are only starting restrictions as once in game each gender has the ability to reach maximum potential in any attribute.

Both men and women start with a base intelligence of three.


Charisma

A personal magic of leadership arousing special popular loyalty or enthusiasm for a public figure : a special magnetic charm or appeal. Players who select female as a gender will start off more charismatic than if they choose to play as a male. This attribute can be further modified with later character creation choices. These are only starting restrictions as once in game each gender has the ability to reach maximum potential in any attribute.

Men start with a base charisma of three while women start with a base charisma of five.

*Hister thinks that base charisma should be set to 0 since you can be an ugly looking slave that nobody wants to look at and thus have 0 personal appeal. Therefore additional charisma should be allotted by certain chosen options after the men/woman category.

First suggestion regarding the allotted skills and attributes to nations:

Spoiler

I support the idea about differences between the cultures.

A suggestion for the Anglo-Saxons was to give them a boost to shields, pole arms, axes, trading, etc while suffering penalties to riding, etc.

Theods (members of continental and Scandinavian Germanic tribes) could have the same skill modifiers as the Anglo-Saxons (as Franks, Frisians and even Scandinavians shared roughly the same martial traditions as the Anglo-Saxons), Romans (the natives of old Roman provinces, even Greeks and Celts would be collectively known as Roman, or amongst the Anglosaxons as Wylisc/Wælisc) should get the same modifiers as the Briton ethnicity (for the same reason).

Nationality. In my opinion this will be one of the hardest to do. Everyone has his or her own views regarding how stats, skills, and proficiencies should go. The following is mine but feel free to add your own to it. Please note that this list is not finished. Spoiler tags used to save page space.

Anglo-Saxons

Spoiler

I've combined the Angles, Jutes, and Saxons under one category because they are very similar. While you will be able to select either one at character creation, they will all receive the same boosts and negatives.

Saxons - A member of a Germanic people in ancient times dwelling near the mouth of the Elbe, a portion of whom invaded and occupied parts of Britain in the 5th and 6th centuries.

Jutes - A member of a Germanic people who invaded Britain in the fifth and sixth centuries a.d. and settled in the south and southeast and on the Isle of Wight. : Jutlanders; one of the Low German tribes, a portion of which settled in Kent, England, in the 5th century.

Angles - A member of a West Germanic people that migrated from Sleswick to Britain in the 5th century a.d. and founded the kingdoms of East Anglia, Mercia, and Northumbria. As early as the 6th century their name was extended to all the Germanic inhabitants of Britain.

Strength (+1), Charisma (-1).
Ironflesh (+1), Power Strike (+1), Power Throw (+1), Shield (+1), Athletics (+1).
1H Weapons (+10), 2H Weapons (+5), Polearms (+20), Throwing (+15).


Briton (Not Started)
]One of a Celtic people inhabiting ancient Britain at the time of the Roman invasion.[/i]


Irish (Not Started)
The aboriginal Celtic-speaking people of Ireland.

Picts (Not Started)
A member of an ancient people of uncertain origin who inhabited parts of northern Britain, fought against the Romans, and in the 9th century a.d. united with the Scots.

Frisian (Not Started)
A native or inhabitant of Friesland or the Frisian Islands.

Foreigner (Not Started)
A person not native to or naturalized in the country or jurisdiction under consideration; alien.

I will update this if I am able to find out any real information regarding certain aspects of the remaining cultures. If not I will simply do my best to come up with a tangible fit that works for them.


Note to self: Nobles should start with a quality made chain mail coat, sword, spear, shield, helmet, horse, and at least 1000 in money. This would be to give players who want a easier start, to have one. Besides being a 'noble' should entitle you to more than just a house you inherited but never get to see. Also you would have to bring something from your homeland besides a flag...

Spoiler

We need suggestions for the remaining cultures and it can be implemented so I encourage you to thinker a little bit. Awaiting comments.

First suggestions regarding alloted attributes and skills for differently sized characters:

Spoiler

Bigger people should be better at using two-handed weapons and maybe shields.

Smaller Characters
-1 Strength, +1 Agility
+1 Weapon Master, +1 Athletics, +1 Shield, +1 Path finding.
-1 Ironflesh, -1 Power Strike, -1 Power Throw, -1 Power Draw.
+10 1H Weapons, -10 2H Weapons.

Larger Characters
+1 Strength, -1 Agility
+1 Ironflesh, +1 Power Strike, +1 Power Throw, +1 Power Draw.
-1 Weapon Master, -1 Shield, -1 Athletics, -1 Path Finding.
+10 2H Weapons, -10 1H Weapons.

Average Characters
No attribute, skill, or weapon proficiency bonuses or  penalties.

Okay, this is what I gathered so far, as much brainstorming as possible from you dear forumites is welcomed and any help will be greatly appreciated!

 

[Uhtred Ragnarson]

Job = Social status maybe

 

[sourblood]

How about renaming parent to Parents social class and Job into Adulthood? This because as I see it Job is what you did when you matured into... *drumroll* adulthood 

 

[Hister]

Social status instead of job is fine but maybe adulthood is the best option here.

We can't rename parents into Parent's social class since the words are to long and would not fit the given screen.

Good suggestions, keep them coming! The sooner we finish this project the sooner we get the new version in our hands. 

Will update the first post accordingly.

 

[sourblood]

I would prefer ethnicity over nationality. And personality over reason sounds good to me. I think it would be nice if it was possible to have more then one personality trait. You could replace Personal Revenge with Vindictive, Religious Fervor with Pious, the richness power thing with Greedy or Power Hungry.

If we allowed more then one trait the effect of each should be toned down, maybe they will only add one skill point per trait?

 

[Thalur]

make starting stats for different classes much more pronounced so that the choice really tunnels your style of play for many levels to come

First of all, if you do that it would be incredibly useful if the effects of each choice could be published here on the forums (behind spoiler tags, of course), so that people can choose to tailor their choices to fit the style of play they want, rather than forcing people to play in a style they happened to pick without knowing it.

Back on the topic at hand;

Gender: fine

Nationality:  wikipedia defines nationality as being a member of a nation or sovereign state, which the factions in the game probably count as.  Ethnicity is sharing a common heritage (i.e. language, culture, religion, ancestry), which probably also applies.  As such, they express different concepts, and I think nationality is a better fit in this case as the game is (partially) about becoming king, not about expanding your tribe to take over the country.  "Faction" is another possibility here.

Parent: change to "Family" seems fine

Religion: yup, though it might be nice to point out which religions are dominant in which regions to give the player guidance as to which is the appropriate to pick - I had no idea Christianity was so widespread in England at this time.

Childhood: ok, "upbringing" might be better.

Job:  I like "occupation" best if sticking with the same answers.  "Social status" is a very different thing from occupation and would be much less useful for determining a character's stats.  In the current scheme, "social status" really comes from the "parent" option.

Reason: I prefer the "personality" idea, "why you left home" seems a bit of a weird thing to specify.

As far as I'm concerned I think that childhood and job (adulthood) categories should have the same options to choose from with the difference that as an apprentice in your childhood you get smaller skills then when you are doing the same thing in your adulthood. For example if you are a craftman's apprentice in childhood and also a craftsman in your adulthood then you get 1 point in engineering in childhood and 2 points from adulthood which sums to 3 points.

I like this, so long as the childhood options have "apprentice" sounding labels rather than exactly the same text.

A few more thoughts:
Does the nationality/ethnicity option have any defensible in-game effect?  Were the Angles stronger than the Saxons?  Were the Picts better with melee weapons than the Jutes?  Or is there an in-game mechanic similar to religion which gives you higher ratings with you're own nationality?  If it has no in-game effect, then it may be better to leave it off and let the player decide for himself/herself.

Add a new category: age.  Younger characters would get an attribute boost, particularly to the physical attributes, to represent being at their peak physical condition, and older characters would get a skill point boost to represent their long years of experience.  The two would overlap somewhere in the early twenties.  If possible, this might also modify the balance between the childhood and occupation categories.

Overall balance: I think there should still be a handful of "best" starting settings for players.  Coming from a good family in a powerful tribe and being brought up in important roles would clearly result in a "better" character than someone who was uneducated, malnourished and generally neglected throughout their life.  The weaker starts would provide a more challenging game for the experienced players.

 

[Uhtred Ragnarson]

how about "Kin" for "Nationality"?

 

[King Ragnarok]

A couple of suggestions

Reason - War, exilation,

Nationality - Frankish

Items - maybe if your religion is the old gods, then you should have thor's hammer in your starting clothes, or a cross if roman christian.

 

[Hister]

Great suggestions!

I think it would be nice if it was possible to have more then one personality trait. You could replace Personal Revenge with Vindictive, Religious Fervor with Pious, the richness power thing with Greedy or Power Hungry.

Good suggestion but I think the number of slots is hardcoded and besides it would be too much balancing work for too little gain. I suppose one main personal attribute is enough for final character shaping.

First of all, if you do that it would be incredibly useful if the effects of each choice could be published here on the forums (behind spoiler tags, of course), so that people can choose to tailor their choices to fit the style of play they want, rather than forcing people to play in a style they happened to pick without knowing it.

Absolutely, good point - we don't want any spoilers for the people who don't want to see raw data.

"Faction" is another possibility here.

Faction is not suitable since each major culture has more factions present on the map. I agree the word "kin" fits the setting the most as suggested by Uhtret.

Religion: yup, though it might be nice to point out which religions are dominant in which regions to give the player guidance as to which is the appropriate to pick - I had no idea Christianity was so widespread in England at this time.

Good point - we might add general description of each chosen religion for better perception of how things stood.

Childhood: ok, "upbringing" might be better.

I'm not so sure if it really is better but I'll add it  in the first post of mine.

Job:  I like "occupation" best if sticking with the same answers.  "Social status" is a very different thing from occupation and would be much less useful for determining a character's stats.  In the current scheme, "social status" really comes from the "parent" option.

Good point, noted.

Reason: I prefer the "personality" idea, "why you left home" seems a bit of a weird thing to specify.

Also my opinion yes.

I like this, so long as the childhood options have "apprentice" sounding labels rather than exactly the same text.

That's what I had in my mind.

Does the nationality/ethnicity option have any defensible in-game effect?  Were the Angles stronger than the Saxons?  Were the Picts better with melee weapons than the Jutes?  Or is there an in-game mechanic similar to religion which gives you higher ratings with you're own nationality?  If it has no in-game effect, then it may be better to leave it off and let the player decide for himself/herself.

Currently the chosen kin does not give any special bonuses but if someone is willing to explain the possible differences between the kins I would be positively inclined towards coding those differences in if they actually existed. So far I haven't read anything noticable but then again I haven't been able to read much.

Add a new category: age.  Younger characters would get an attribute boost, particularly to the physical attributes, to represent being at their peak physical condition, and older characters would get a skill point boost to represent their long years of experience.  The two would overlap somewhere in the early twenties.  If possible, this might also modify the balance between the childhood and occupation categories.

That's certainly an interesting proposal but I think the number of additional slots for character creation are hardcoded. Idibil or Adorno might prove me wrong. 3 main types of warrior class existed in Angle/Saxon/Jut communities: young, seasoned and veteran warriors. They would all fight in the same formation where seasoned ones were in front, young ones were in the middle and veteran warriors were at the back. Not sure if that was also the case with the Briton/Irish factions but it would seem to me it was the same. In addition you can already adjust visual look of your character by that slider so we would get overlapping of features.

Overall balance: I think there should still be a handful of "best" starting settings for players.  Coming from a good family in a powerful tribe and being brought up in important roles would clearly result in a "better" character than someone who was uneducated, malnourished and generally neglected throughout their life.  The weaker starts would provide a more challenging game for the experienced players.

That's the basic idea yes! The chosable options should feel straight forward/intuitive when creating your character.

how about "Kin" for "Nationality"?

Seems the best option so far.

A couple of suggestions

Reason - War, exilation,

Nationality - Frankish

Items - maybe if your religion is the old gods, then you should have thor's hammer in your starting clothes, or a cross if roman christian.

Yeah, if we stick to Reasons then more plausible reasons for why one sets on his mission should eb provided. war is definitely one of the main reasons why someone would find himself alone due to his family being killed and his settlement burned.
Erm, what does exilation mean?
Proper spelling will be provided in the next version yes.
Items related to your religion is a very nice suggestion but it all depends on availability of 3D modelers and texturers. I'm not familiar with the current situation in the team on that matter.

A suggestion:

You get the following text when choosing the gender-male option:
"Being a new born son the family sword was ritually put in your hands in order to show your inheritance and the luck of your family that passed on you."

 

[herkles]

exilation, should be exile, not sure what it is in verb form though past tense is exiled. ie cast out of your home/tribe/family and forced to make your way in the world.

two questions,

1.) is there any IG effect for the choices you pick? ie do people re-act diffrently who your parents where or what your ethnicty is?

2.) for hister, is there a female version of that text you wrote at the bottom of your post.

 

[Dalkar]

If you're not a noble then lords will talk down to you like arrogant fools. Until I smash them in the face with my axe, that is
Also if you start off as a noble you have 100+ renown at the start, I think.

 

[Pundragon]

Here are a few of my thoughts about character creation for the mod. It is by no means a complete are fully legible list but given what time it currently is, it'll have to do. Spoiler tags used to save page space.

Gender

Spoiler

Male - Should have higher starting physical attributes and skills.
Female - Starts with lower physical attributes/skills but has higher non physical ones. (Persuasion, Surgery, Etc.)

Culture

Spoiler

Angle, Jute, Saxon, Gaelic, Pict, Briton. (I don't see much point adding in a foreigner or Frisian choice.) I didn't feel like racking my brain or researching but each culture should get boosts/negatives based on some historical fact. Saxons for instance would get a boost to shields, pole arms, axes, trading, etc while suffering penalties to riding, etc. (Saxons didn't use horses for warfare I don't think.)

Family History

Spoiler

Who your father was usually determined your lot in life. I'm not sure the mother played much part in that. Though I'm sure she would have helped in her own way, maybe even taught you a thing or two. But for historical purposes... Well... Like father like son. Maybe these selections could change depending on what culture you choose. Or add in a few culture specific ones in addition.

Nobility, Soldiers, Merchants, Masons, Hunters, Horse Breeders, Farmers, Etc. Each history type would have benefits and drawbacks.

Religion

Spoiler

Celtic Pagan, Celtic Christian, Germanic Pagan, Roman Christian. I think this should influence how villages, towns, and other lords view you when starting a game.

CP / CP = ++ to how much they like you.
CP / GP = + to how much they like you.
CP / CC = - to how much they dislike you.
CP / RC = -- to how much they dislike you.

So if you were Gaelic (Irish) Celtic Pagan you would have a double positive boost to places and people who shared your alignment. Likewise if all Roman Christians would dislike you twice as much.

And vice-versa with the other religions. This would add a bit more fun and challenge to the game. These should be permanent effects as well unless you changed religions. Etc.

Age

Spoiler

Young, Adult, Old (Or whatever.) Selecting this would determine your age/experience when entering the game. Selecting young would give you higher attributes but way less skill/weapon points. Selecting Old would give you lower attributes but more skill/weapon points. Being an adult would be somewhere in the middle.

Experience

Spoiler

What you choose in Family History/Age would influence this selection as well. Say you choose Nobility and old then you could choose Commander, Infantry/Spear/Calvary Leader, etc.

I don't think there should be a reason. I think creating a character is something you'd like to already be doing in the game. Let your character progress/change as the game evolves. Started off as a grizzly warrior who decided to hang it up and trade. Let it work it out in game.

Other

Spoiler

I would also like to be able to pick one positive and one negative trait.
Positive Traits - Honorable (Bonus honor at game start), Renowned (Bonus renown at start) Leader, Crafty, Midas Touch, Just, Healthy, etc.
Negative Traits - Dishonorable, Sneaky, Kinslayer, Diseased, Etc.

Well I'm a bit tired at the writing of this so I may not have written as great as I'd like. I just hope my examples proved useful in any way. Perhaps when I'm more awake I will be able to come up with a in depth and cohesive listing.

 

[Dest45]

certain options should give starting companions like a sibling if you had a large family, a bodyguard if your a noble or friends from your sellsword days that travel with you. it would be awesome to have trusted people in your party to start the game.

 

[Hister]

exilation, should be exile, not sure what it is in verb form though past tense is exiled. ie cast out of your home/tribe/family and forced to make your way in the world.

two questions,

1.) is there any IG effect for the choices you pick? ie do people re-act diffrently who your parents where or what your ethnicty is?

2.) for hister, is there a female version of that text you wrote at the bottom of your post.

- Exiled is okay.
- Currently kin does not effect anything and is there just for the flavour. If We get reasonable suggestions to what main differences between the cultures were then we will implement it.
- I haven't think of anything for female text but shouldn't be hard. You are all welcome to write down the text if you have good historically plausible ideas.

Male - Should have higher starting physical attributes and skills.
Female - Starts with lower physical attributes/skills but has higher non physical ones. (Persuasion, Surgery, Etc.)

That's the idea yes - we just have to determine how much starting points are given as a basis. Soem adjustments and testing will have to be done to make the system balanced.

Angle, Jute, Saxon, Gaelic, Pict, Briton. (I don't see much point adding in a foreigner or Frisian choice.) I didn't feel like racking my brain or researching but each culture should get boosts/negatives based on some historical fact. Saxons for instance would get a boost to shields, pole arms, axes, trading, etc while suffering penalties to riding, etc. (Saxons didn't use horses for warfare I don't think.)

Foreigner and Frisian are there 'cos number of options to choose from is hardcoded so you can't delete those entries. We can rename them to something better if you have any ideas.
I support your idea about differences between the cultures. You gave nice examples for Saxons, we also need suggestions for the remaining cultures and it can be implemented so I encourage you to thinker a little bit when you are more rested

Who your father was usually determined your lot in life. I'm not sure the mother played much part in that. Though I'm sure she would have helped in her own way, maybe even taught you a thing or two. But for historical purposes... Well... Like father like son. Maybe these selections could change depending on what culture you choose. Or add in a few culture specific ones in addition.

Nobility, Soldiers, Merchants, Masons, Hunters, Horse Breeders, Farmers, Etc. Each history type would have benefits and drawbacks.

You are correct about the father but family name in general played a big role so I would stick with the "Family". Family as an entity had it's separate honour/renown and it belonged to certain social class which you inherited when born but the class mobility was not very strick so you could degrade or improve your status by your own deeds.

Your suggestion regarding religion is well thought out (don't know how it is coded currently) - I'm just not 100% sure if the relations you proposed were really like that. Can someone knowledgeable help us on that question?

As for "Age" and "Experience" proposal I first have to explain that no additional category can be added. We can only rename what currently exists. The same goes to number of options to choose from - not one can be deleted and no more can be added.
They are both interesting proposals though. "Experience" would then be used instead of childhood and adulthood/occupation. I'm more inclined towards the old system though, I think it gives more flavour but I might be wrong.

I would also like to be able to pick one positive and one negative trait

That's not possible due to engine limitations. You'll have to pick only one main personality trait but I haven't got any ideas what those major personal traits should be - Pundrago,n if you can help me figure them out I would be glad.

Certain options should give starting companions like a sibling if you had a large family, a bodyguard if your a noble or friends from your sellsword days that travel with you. it would be awesome to have trusted people in your party to start the game.

It would have to be scripted so sorry can't be done with team's current assets.


Any help, ideas, proposals are welcome.

 

[Hister]

First post updated (added new suggestions and made it look nicer with spoilers) 

 

[Uhtred Ragnarson]

certain options should give starting companions like a sibling if you had a large family, a bodyguard if your a noble or friends from your sellsword days that travel with you. it would be awesome to have trusted people in your party to start the game.

I like this.

 

[Hister]

Yeah it's a neat proposal but currently the team can't do that. If someone has the knowledge in scripting he can try to pull it off.

 

[Hister]

I've finally managed to find social ranks that existed with Saxons.
http://www.darkagessociety.co.uk/9class.html

I don't know if those would also fit with the Picts, Brits, and Irish though


‘Anglo-Saxon society was hierarchical, aristocratic and militaristic.  A kingdom needed three types of men: to work, fight and pray.

Slave (Theow):

Spoiler

He/she can be bought, sold or given. They cannot contract a legal marriage and any children are the property of the owner and can be sold seperately. What very few rights the theow had were probably due to the church. Slaves can be born (of slaves), be captured in war, become slaves as punishment for crime or because of inability to pay legal fines, or in hard times the poor might sell themselves into slavery to avoid starvation. Anyone killing a slave only had to pay his market value to the owner; no wergeld went to the slaves family. A slave could be bound, beaten, perhaps even killed by his owner with no fear of any legal retribution. However, it was possible for slaves to work for themselves during what little spare time they had and perhaps earn enough to buy their freedom, or they could be freed as an act of Christian piety, particularly in the wills of rich people.

Freed man (former slave) (Cotsetla):

Spoiler

She/he is legally free and has a freeman’s rights and obligations. He owes considerable labour services to his lord. According to the Rectitudires, he should have at least five acres of land to farm himself but note that he does not own this, it is land belonging to his lord that he has the use of.

The Gebur (better off freed man):

Spoiler

Is likewise a freed man or the son of one, but rather better off. The gebur owes his lord less work but also has to pay rent (in cash or in kind). He is provided with land, tools and stock by his lord but these revert to the lord on the gebur’s death. In the Rectitudires, his normal holding was a quarter of a hide.

The Gafolgelda or Ceorl (even better of freed man)

Spoiler

Is essentially a gebur holding more land from his lord, for which he pays rent in cash or kind. If he does well, he may be able to buy himself out of being a gebur and become fully free - able to go where he pleases, rather than being tied to his lord’s estate. Gafolgelda means ‘rent payer’.

Note: Those 3 types of freed man can be merged in one group called simply Freed man for the sake of gameplay.

Fully free man (Geneat):

Spoiler

Is actually fully free. Geneat means ‘companion’ and pobably reflects the status of a priviledged class of noblemen’s retainers. He still owes labour services to his lord (possibly not performed in person but by his servants) and rent as well. He is expected to own a horse and arms and to serve as a mounted messenger. A number of sources mention geneats performing millitary service, probably as retainers of noblemen. Sometimes the sources refer to the ‘kings geneats’ who may have had superior status.

Noble man (Thegn):

Spoiler

It seems to have been accepted that a thegn held at least five hides of land. By the 9th century nobles held their land by charter and so it did not revert to the king on the thegn’s death but passed on to his heir. The Rectitudires states that the thegn owed three things in respect of his land: military service, fortress building and bridge building; the ‘Trimoda Necessitas’ that were usually reserved for the king’s dues in charters. As for the geneat, the sources sometimes refer to the king’s thegns and later evidence make it clearthat these were men of superior status to the other thegns.

Governor of a shire (Ealdorman):

Spoiler

Not hereditary but a royal appointment. Ealdomem wielded considerable power - they were responsible for administering justice and in times of war, calling out the fyrd of the shire and leading them into battle.

Social mobility:

Spoiler

It was possible to rise in social status; A ceorl could takeon more land and become fully free and even in some cases actually gain five hides, in which case if he performed the royal dues, he came to rank as a thegn. If this was kept up for three generations, the rank of thegn became hereditary, even if the land-holding later fell below five hides. Such impoverished nobles seem to have been fairly common by the Norman Conquest but were probably quite rare in the 9th century. Downwards mobility was also possible as explained previously. The Ceorls, although not free by modern standards (the word ‘serf’ comes to mind). were free by Anglo-Saxon standards; unlike a slave, nobody owned him and he had the full legal rights of a freeman, as well as the duties. Alfred’s laws and earlier archeological evidence imply that ceorls owned weapons but these were probably restricted to spear and shield: the spear of course was not only used in war but also for hunting. Most Ceorls do not seem to have been very wealthy however and so would be very unlikely to own expensive military equipment such as horses, helmets, swords or mail shirts.

Lordship:

Spoiler

The bonds of lordship, a two-way relationship, were universal. Every man save the king had to have a lord: the king himself, an earldorman, a wealthy thegn or a wealthy clergyman. Alfred’s laws clearly display the horror that was felt at treachery to one’s lord. The lord had to protect and to support his follower and vice versa. This included seeking vengeance for wrongs, just as a man was expected to uphold his kinsmen.

The Fyrd was a levy of men liable for military service from the kingdom to repel invaders. Thegns were certainly liable for military service and geneats and ceorls were also liable for some sort of military service. As most ceorls would not have been able to afford much in the way of military equipment, it is probable that they served as part of a wealthy nobles personal retinue. The size of the retinue depended on the size of the nobles estate, probably at the rate of one man per five hides.


I think this text gives us good ideas how to renmae the character creation options. Would like to see some brainstorming done by you - am waiting for ideas

Edit: In essence 4 major class ranks exist:
-nobles (king, male relative to the king, governor of an area, king's retinue, land possessing lower nobles)
- non-nobles (kings retinue, lords retinue, fully free rent paying farmers)
- free men/freed men (differently ranking free or freed peasants who have to cultivate differently sized land for their lords)
- slaves

 

[Puritan]

I fully support making starting choices have pronounced in game effect so long as those effects are published on the forum, or listed in-game.

Am I the only one who likes to play as a reverse varangian (i.e. someone from Greece)? Please leave the option to play as a foreigner to the Isles in. Many of the companions are Outlanders, let my character also be one.

 

[Hister]

I fully support making starting choices have pronounced in game effect so long as those effects are published on the forum, or listed in-game.

Am I the only one who likes to play as a reverse varangian (i.e. someone from Greece)? Please leave the option to play as a foreigner to the Isles in. Many of the companions are Outlanders, let my character also be one.

They will be published on a forum under the spoiler tag so taht the ones who do not want to see raw data don't see it.
We'll probably leave the option for the Foreigner then