New banners (feedback & artistic direction welcomed)

[Illuminati]

Hi,
I just wanted some feedback/advice on the artistic direction these banners should take.
I worked on these a few days ago (I made only 7 which probably need tweaking), but I was hoping I could get a second opinion before I continue any work (in case I'm moving in the wrong artistic direction). Perhaps these banners are unfitting for POP? or perhaps they're no good at all, in which case should I simply stop work on them alltogether?

Also, apparently there is a workaround that Archangel2k came up with which resolves the issue of banner images appearing oversized on the armour? I did a search but didn't find more info on this. If anyone could let me know which issue has actually been addressed (or if Archangel reads this lol), it would be really helpful.

Any negative/positive feedback would be welcome (don't worry, I won't take offence ).
I can then update this post to include new banners based on your input.
Thanks.

Edit2:Ok, I need to make the '3d' ones more 2dimensional lol. Thanks for the feedback.
Most are perhaps no good since they don't fit in to POP? But feel free to use any that you want.

Spoiler

Old set:

Spoiler

Some reference images (also to prove that the strange creature is actually a historical crest lol. But I'll use more fitting images for the next ones).

Spoiler

1659, Coat of arms of Old Warsaw on the cover of an accounting book for the city:

From Aragon, Knights of Montesa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Montesa):

Original image for the Sword Brothers symbol (I made it more bannerish):

 

[Misguided]

First reaction:  Those are PRETTY!

But...  (there's always a but)

The banners in use in Pendor, (and in native too) pretty much all actually could have been used as real heraldry.  They follow the laws that governed how coats-of-arms could be designed in the Middle Ages.  (Except the D'Shar.  Those guys are wierd.)

All of your banners are beautiful artwork, but several would never be accepted as proper heraldry, historically.

THAT BEING SAID.... this is not necessarily a historical mod.  And they ARE pretty.

(But I'm going to be bothered by embossed/chased designs on banners.  Sorry, just the truth.)



-Misguided

 

[Illuminati]

I was on a different computer, and now that i look at them, they look over-saturated (all of them) so I'll fix them all up.

Regarding history, I didn't realise they needed to be historical banners. I can use historic images though (I have plenty of coat-of-arms).
The problem is, most family coat-of-arms are copyright material.... which is why I thought it best to be more original, to avoid copyright infringments?

Some should be ok though... orders like Knights of Santiago, Templars, and other national ones. But the factions in POP are not historic are they? Otherwise I would make banners to reflect this. I mean... unless 'The Empire' should use the 'Holy Roman Empire' banner, but I didn't think that would be fitting?

 

[Galagros]

I think numbers 2 and 3 are very nice and could work IMO.  I like the designs on 1 and 6, but hate the background stuff.  I'm just being honest--the work is good quality, though.

 

[Illuminati]

I think numbers 2 and 3 are very nice and could work IMO.  I like the designs on 1 and 6, but hate the background stuff.  I'm just being honest--the work is good quality, though.

I'll edit them, removing or compeltely fading-out the background and see if that works (thanks Galagros ).

Misguided, regarding the style of image, would you say no.3 is ok?

 

[The Zue]

First reaction:  Those are PRETTY!

But...  (there's always a but)

The banners in use in Pendor, (and in native too) pretty much all actually could have been used as real heraldry.  They follow the laws that governed how coats-of-arms could be designed in the Middle Ages.

All of your banners are beautiful artwork, but several would never be accepted as proper heraldry, historically.

THAT BEING SAID.... this is not necessarily a historical mod.  And they ARE pretty.

(But I'm going to be bothered by embossed/chased designs on banners.  Sorry, just the truth.)



-Misguided

heyo..

i disagree.

there are several current PoP 2.2 banners that do not represent these code of laws you speak.  Lets revert to youth education shall we?  http://www.storyboardtoys.com/gallery/coat-of-arms-lesson-plan.htm  its important to realize that these "rules" were often broken and were subject to time periods, methods and culture.  Not only to mention that they were specific to old english interp.

many of the banners above could easily fit within the rules of heraldry except for possibly the leopard skin and mythological creature (harpy/griffin mix)  BUT.. Sarleon and its SD's interpretation would best "fit" this ideal.  The rest of the cultures (by SD's interp) would be likely to choose whatever they want.

Let me share you my theory of what I was trying to achieve, and then how the execution of that theory, the other players can attest to better than I can.  I have included an estimated level of difficulty to play and win with this culture.

I basically formulated a concept for each faction.

Sarleon: The standard Medieval Kingdom, fairly uniform in their gear, Good high tier Knights, an evolution of the Old Pendor Kingdom but not quite as good.  Addition of Halberd upper tier troops and longbowmen make them average in the field and just above average in holding castles and average in taking castles.  Estimated difficulty: Average

Fierdsvain: A transitional cultured Kingdom roughly patterned after the Danes.  Weak cavalry, below average archers, very strong infantry.  Below average in the field, especially against mounted opponents, superior holding and taking castles. Estimated Difficulty: Above Average

D'Shar: Another transitional cultured Kingdom roughly patterned after the Mongols.  Very fast mobile cavalry with good ranged weapons, and medium infantry with polearms.  Great in the field against others, usually turns the field battles into a swirling mess which negates most infantry advantages.  Below average in holding and taking castles due to lighter armor.  Estimated Difficulty: Hard

Empire: The third transitional culture, a unique concept blending a Medieval Kingdom with Rome.  Very uniform in their armor and culture.  Probably one of the most difficult positions to master as once you become adept at how to maneuver the units on the battlefield they become good in pitched battles.  Average in pitched battles, but have below average cavalry.  They are above average at taking and holding castles. Estimated Difficulty: Above Average

Ravenstern: I modeled this after what I would say is an emerging kingdom with independent lords.  Great archers, good cavalry and average infantry.  High variance in the look and feel of the troops to reflect the independent nature of the cutlure.  Average in pitched battles, above average in taking and holding castles. Estimated Difficulty: Average

Best,

Saxondragon

PERSONALY, I think your banner creations are absolutely fantastic.  The symbols theymselves are a bit small and might not show to well while on the map.. but they might look really cool on surcoats.. especially the leopard skin one for D'Shar.

looking at those banners my first impression was Empire and D'Shar simply for the color patterns and the step away from the norm.  I say good work m8 and would love to see more.  IMO, you can never have enough banners.  And ty for taking the time and motivation to put them together, I appreciate your efforts.

cheers
z

ps.. after looking abit closer..

1,3 Sarleon
2,6,7 D'Shar
2,5 Empire
1,3,5, Fierd, Raven..

my choices if I were to RP..   the 4 just doesnt do anything for me.

 

[Misguided]

Trust me, Z, I know my rules of heraldry.

And I know some of the banners, particularly, as I said, the D'Shar, (and some empire too) do things differently than the college of heralds would have liked.

However, none of them have 3-dimensional chunks of gold or stone statues glued to them.  They are all things that could be sewn together with cloth.

Those are the ones that would make me twitch if used.  (Well, those and the leapord-print... )

Honestly I think that 1,3 and 6 are fine.  The background will probably have to become a solid color, I think, because they will just look dirty at the resolution used in the game.  5 is interesting at full size, a sort of gold embroidered look, but I am afraid it will just become a muddy blob when seen in game... 

Just being honest here.  None of this is a reflection on the work.  They're all great art.

-Misguided

PS: forgot to mention.  No, Illiminati, they don't have to be "historical."  However, making them "actually able to be sewn on cloth and flown in battle" is, I think, important.

Again, this is purely my opinion and subject to overrule.

 

[Illuminati]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to write, and for the criticism! Thats's exactly why I posted, and I could never improve these without your comments.

The Zue, I kept the images that size because they look strange on heraldic armour when the image is too large, but what do you think... should I make the images on some larger?

Doing:
1st banner: Fading out the background.
2nd banner: Blend in to material more.
3rd banner: Ok.
4th banner: Image too large? (will fade-in abit).
5th banner: Fade background.
6th banner: Delete background.
7th banner: I agree with what Misguided said, but I can't get rid of that 'emboss look' on this for some reason. How about if it is just leopard skin only?

I'm currently fixing each one, and will re-post the updated banners in 30 or so minutes.
Once these are done (and you approve), I'll do new ones (with 'edited' real coat of arms).

 

[The Zue]

However, none of them have 3-dimensional chunks of gold or stone statues glued to them.  They are all things that could be sewn together with cloth. 

or skins

Those are the ones that would make me twitch if used.  (Well, those and the leapord-print... )

i can respect that opinion definately.  But the leopard imo fits with the ideal of using animal skins (D'Shar) primarily.

Honestly I think that 1,3 and 6 are fine.  The background will probably have to become a solid color, I think, because they will just look dirty at the resolution used in the game.  5 is interesting at full size, a sort of gold embroidered look, but I am afraid it will just become a muddy blob when seen in game...

THIS, is the most important part as far as I am personally concerned.  What looks good in design, usually has a completely different outcome ingame.  Any banner design should definately be tested ingame as to see what becomes of it.  This I completely agree with.

Just being honest here.  None of this is a reflection on the work.  They're all great art.

-Misguided

PS: forgot to mention.  No, Illiminati, they don't have to be "historical."  However, making them "actually able to be sewn on cloth and flown in battle" is, I think, important.

Again, this is purely my opinion and subject to overrule.

fair enough 

 

[Misguided]

Been going over this thread in my head, and you know what I think is bothering me more than anything else?

They just don't fit the art style used already.

We've got dozens of banners which, while different, all at least look like they belong in the same game.  Were we to implement the ones above, they would positively scream "I'M SOMEONE ELSE'S ART!!"

Now, if we decided to redo all the banners in a higher resolution with more advanced artwork, it might be different.  But right now using pretty much any of those in the lineup is going to be like wearing a ballgown to a baseball game.


Like I said, the art is great.  I just don't think it fits.  Just my opinion.

Sorry if I offend.



-Misguided

PS.  As I said before, a toned down version of 1,3 and 6 could be workable.  2 if the metalic gold just becomes yellow.  The others I just don't see.

 

[The Zue]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to write, and for the criticism! Thats's exactly why I posted, and I could never improve these without your comments.

The Zue, I kept the images that size because they look strange on heraldic armour when the image is too large, but what do you think... should I make the images on some larger?

Doing:
1st banner: Fading out the background.
2nd banner: Blend in to material more.
3rd banner: Ok.
4th banner: Image too large? (will fade-in abit).
5th banner: Fade background.
6th banner: Delete background.
7th banner: I agree with what Misguided said, but I can't get rid of that 'emboss look' on this for some reason. How about if it is just leopard skin only?

I'm currently fixing each one, and will re-post the updated banners in 30 or so minutes.
Once these are done (and you approve), I'll do new ones (with 'edited' real coat of arms).

heyo..

I am flattered that you would ask me for my suggestions in change.  But its not my place to.  YOUR the artist.. 

As for whats right/wrong and implementation, its more important to realize and respect the guidelines (interpretations) of the folks that actually work on the mod.  Though I have a debate over what Misguided has said, its no argument as to what he approves/dis-approves when it comes to the integrity and passion of PoP as a whole.  I respect Misguided a great deal for his commitment to the community and mod and (if I was working on a feature for the game) would go with that.

I will say this though.  Not to hijack your interpretation of banner art.  Please dont let it change what you feel is your awsomeness..

1.  red/orange on white.
2.  fine
3.  fine
4.  keep the pattern, enlarge the pattern symbols, lose the creature, keep the crown or shield it.
5.  pronounce center piece
6.  lose the pattern, darken the symbol
7.  lose the symbol, AND PUT A BIG HUNKIN BOW & HORSE... lol.

IMO.

my only personal issue with the banners currently are:

there is WAY to much red and green for my tastes.  I know folks like those colors.. awsome.  I dont.

there are not enough if banners are copied on map.  Bums me out that somebody else has my banner.. 

and placements on surcoats/herald.. ie.  one of my favorite banners is the white deer head on black.  unfortunately on surcoat.. the dear nose is sniffing my groin.    but that has been a problem since vanilla way back.

I am a dork when it comes to making my party and army look GOOD.. i know it probably doenst matter to some, but for me, its part of the immersion factor.

enough lol
z

 

[Daergarz]

They all look awesome and I would love to be able to use one as my own personal banner. If they don't fit into the current art scheme, maybe it'd be possible to reserve them for the player.

 

[Misguided]

Heh.  I prefer yellow with black accents, myself, but the Empire seems to have those all sewed up... (The black sword and horseheads on a yellow field is my usual choice.  Mixing it up and going with the counterchanged roses this time as I'm playing a female char.)

Trust me, I'm all about new banners, and yours are lovely, Illuminati.  I just want to make sure that in the attempt to make something beautiful, you do not make it unusable. 

As you adjust the banners, put them next to some of the in-game banners and ask yourself, "Sure, this is cool, but does it fit the art style we're already using?"

Be honest with yourself, and if the answer is "no", then you're left with 2 choices.  Adjust it until it is, or decide you want to do a total overhaul and change ALL the banners to match YOUR art style.



-Misguided

PS.  Just making sure folks understand.  This is all conjectural.  It doesn't matter if we all decide that Illuminati's banners are so awesome they can cure cancer.  The decisions for stuff like this are made between Alan, Archangel, and SD.  They are the artists, and the visual representation of Pendor is their baby.  I don't even know if they are LOOKING for more banners.

 

[The Zue]

Midguided,

I somewhat agree.  Though 1,2 and 3 could definately work without the paterning.

I mean..

2 for instance is a white and yellow version of PoP's blue with blue sun.
1 for instance fits with the whole Lion, Sarleon fit.  They do use lions quite a bit. 
3 cross?  kmon man.. lol  there are quite a few examples of cross banners in PoP.

the skin idea i agree a bit over the top.. but really NO different than the skull banner.  so a person wants to make a death legion?, could be the same with a savage/skin type.

6 could be on the arm of a red hot chili peppers band m8.. or album cover.  hehe.

maybe if you gave ill your ideas a little more clearly, he could come up with something that would work.  the creative and motivation is definately a show.

i like the work.  and I play PoP exclusively, so at least its on a track of possibility.  imo.  good stuff.

z

 

[Misguided]

Note what I said in the PS:  5 posts up, and in the post above you.

Great minds think alike.

-Misguided

PS.  Lion?  That thing in 1 is a unicorn, man. 

 

[The Zue]

just noticed that.. lol. 

well damnit there are unicorns symbols in the game.  hell a whole order for that matter!..

fine then. 

z

 

[Misguided]

Must sleep now... Illuminati, I'll have to wait till tomorrow to see what you come up with.  Have fun creating!

-Misguided

 

[Illuminati]

Wow, you guys typed alot! I just got back and thats some pretty amazing advice, thanks!

Yes, I agree with everything you guys have said and I'll give them another go-over (incorporating what you said while I was away).

For example, I'll make the banners cleaner (not so dirty), and replace the Idol on the leopard skin with something like a bow&arrow or spears (maybe from vanilla).
By the way, is the leopard skin better now? Maybe it was too real/photographic before ...I think it's more bannery now (while still looking like skin).

The reason the banners look dirty is because the other computer I'm doing these on have messed up colour settings. When i bring them back here I keep thinking to myself  "****! not again!" and need to re do them lol.

I'll fix these up a little more, and move on to other themes for the banners (that will be more fitting to POP).

 

[€hr¡s]

4, 5, and maybe 2 need some work. They don't really look like flags but rather tarps of cloth with metal hot glued to them or something. Especially with 4 because even if you did get it to look like stitched cloth nobody in the world at the era PoP takes place in can sew that type of design unless they had jazz hands soaked with Jesus spunk.

Though I could say the same thing with some of the banners in PoP already.

 

[Ackwell]

There is a blatant breaches in basic heraldic code in many banners both vanilla and PoP. The most distinct I see is the fact that they but metals on metrals and colors on colors on both the shields and charges. The most important heraldic rule is that never put metal on metal or color on color. I have been working on some banners since I got PoP and I might post mine later when I have time, probably tomorrow night (GMT+2).

But my views on your banners:

1. Very good heraldic wise. Rampant horse and a crown in orange on silver shield. Color on metal. Orange represent worthy ambition and silver peace and sincerity. Horse means you are ready to do anything for king and country and the crown means that the bearer of the banner belongs to nobility. Very fitting banner for the new king of Pendor or what you think?
2. Gold charge on silver shield. Metal upon metal, very no-no in heraldry. I suggest you change the sun (I think that's what it is) or the shield into color. Sun represent glory and it is the fountain of life. If you want to keep the gold is the color of generosity and elevation of mind.
3. The crest is of actual order and it shows, very good heraldic wise and works great. On the other hand I prefer not to use real emblems in banners in fictional game. That's just my opinion.
4. WHat to say about this. It is not a heraldic banner. The background is not any of the heraldic tinctures and the charge is far too complicated and doesn't look like a banner at all. This one is just a pretty picture.
5. Well. Again metal on metal like in nr. 2. I like it though. The "3D-effect" looks like it is a very expensive stitching work and could very well go as a ceremonial cloth for an order. If it is to be used as a banner, I would change either the shield or the charge into color and take only the sword and the cross simplified as the actual charge. Cool ceremonial cloth though.
6. Heraldically correct, color on metal. Not sure what the actual charge represent, since I can't really distict what it is supposed to be. Would work nicely for D'shar because their banners usually are more undistinctive.
7. Nothing to say about this heraldically. Would go well as a ceremonial cloth for some african tribe.

By the way, somebody said that D'shar banners not generally follow heraldic rules since they are weird. It seems their banners follow heraldic rules even better than some other factions banners though.