Need help of advanced coder for castle building sim SCENES ONLY MOD!

[duck83]

Hello to you all Incomers!

At first I'll write a short preview, being targeted at old PC strategy games players.

The mod I'm trying to create would be nearest to the impression some of you perhaps knows, based on old game Lords of the Realms II. It is not going to be that sort of strategy game, yet in fact it would be like an animated outro for every finished mission in LotRII. If any of you may still remember, that outro was done in a sort of 3ds max programme and showed few steps through some old castle being displayed in FPP, where that walking person moved to the window and looked down at some crowd cheering the recent victory.

The reason why I write about it is, that even though the outro was done some like 17 years ago it looks very current still, especially in terms of details, that for the odd reason nowadays can be implemented in typical game-play offered by games like MnB.

The thing of this whole long preview is about to work on imagination of any of you reading and pretend to show the image of MnB being played on scenes only, where a player is a ruler of a local fief and it's duties are to rule his lands.



Now it's time for some proper description.

What I really would wish this mod was to achieve is the feeling of medieval life sim and castle builder sim mixed together, presented within the boundaries of MnB Warband's engine, yet with the accent placed on gaming through the huge scene locations only. I know most of you would gladly start the runt like "No, come on, another scenes only mod after the Skyrim has been launched". Still I'd wish to hold you a bit at bay saying that the thing is meant to be more like the Stronghold 2 game, where you build a town and castle on one map with your enemies stationing in the same location or attacking your walled town in waves. In fact I'd wish to make the mod where you, as player was meant to issue orders regarding building fortifications and economy structures in order to grow stronger and resist some incoming waves of attacks. I'm going to say that again, but for those who played Stronghold 2 it might be odd to try to make that game in WB, yet I believe FPP/TPP engine possibilities would serve that cause perfectly.

At first you get the full impression of making your own steps through your own fief, and at second the details of graphic elements that are going to be implemented will be shown to you from as close distance as you wish.

I know there are many modders here making some really stunning weapons and armours and such like things. Shame is you can see them only once you enter the battle in WB and not whenever you wish to see them, either walking on the ramparts., or being on the hunt for a wild boar or just moving on horseback from your castle to belonging to you village. Just to check how the life is going there, or to recruit some strong villagers for your men-at-arms force, or just to order the erection of some crucial in your opinion economic building, like some storehouse, or bridge. Perhaps you just would wish to see your great weapons while defending your lands or during the audience for some master smithy who lured by your fame wants to offer you services of making artistic decorations for your weapons cast in iron or gold.

The thing I have written is about to explain on what is the aim I wish the mod was to achieve. It's basically like living through all those moments in WB when you entered some Lord's castle or walked through the streets of a village or town. The overall exception to that is you will no longer leave those locations, those are going to be places on scene and the decision on
how will those look will be all yours, as the lord and owner. While starting with a wooden palisade and wooden keep inside the circle will make you feel dizzy as you always dreamed about stone keep it will be your decision to start building of one. If the halls of your keep are going to be too empty for you can order your craftsman to make some furnitures, just for look (if he actually hasn't got any other job, like making shields).

And the thing where I ask for help.

Guys, here is me asking, if any of you liked that thing he just red, or wants to know more just write here or send me a PM. I'm looking for some advanced coder who will be able to code the persistent scene and make codes for issuing commands to your serfs, either by walking to the and talking and giving the direct orders or by the use of 1,2,3 and F1, F2 and F3 keys with the previous setting of groups of serfs in the Party window (like Infantry, Archers, Cavalry, Woodsmen, Farmers, Smiths, Miners, Workers and etc.).

I'm good at making graphics elements yet any one willing to help is going to be welcomed with an opened hands. Still I need you guys (coders!) for making that all work. I have one scene which is done on like 5% and that will serve as the tutorial map. I think I can throw at you some of my ideas on how to make the day-night cycles appear on the scene without need to exit it and load a different one. There are many things I can't do myself. I'm just totally weak in coding. I looked in most of Module System's files, I know whet they are up for, yet I have no imagination nor experience to write those codes. I know most of you would say - learn those, it would do you good - and I would appreciate such advices, yet I tried and got nearly to nowhere. So please any one who likes the idea and has some spare time, write here or send me PM.

Best regards,

duck83

 

[xenoargh]

OK... back up.

1.  You can see the villages and towns and go into workshops ("enterprises") and... everything. 

There is a menu option to go there, etc.  From a technical perspective, it is possible to make that happen every time you visit a town or a village. 

They just didn't do it that way, because loading those Scenes take a long time to load and most players would rather just pop in, do some business and leave. 

Sadly, that means that most players only see the Taverns, but all of those things are there.

2.  What you're asking for is probably possible, with a lot of caveats. 

But it'd be it's own game, pretty much.  We're talking a major coding project here.  If you want to sell people on trying to build the code for you, you need more than this to pitch.

If you're really a competent graphics artist, show off working, nice content set up for this engine (preferably working screenshots; show us that you've mastered OpenBRF and the basics of putting items into the game) and spend a lot more time thinking through the functional issues. 

Make mockups of the UI, etc.- your English is a bit hard to read, and pictures, well-designed, convey a lot about what you'd like.

 

[duck83]

Thank you for your comment xenoargh.

Your advices are very good and set me on some graphics job again (I was making scene lately only).

I decided to put here two images of objects I have already done for MnB and that mod. The first one is the swine / boar. Don't look too much at too bright fur it has, it's just the first texture I made for it. The second one is made in browns. I will put some images of the brownish swine / boar after I finally will rig it. I haven't done that yet properly. I have some problems with rigging, but I will make it through them for sure.

The second image shows big birches (trees) that I have made also for use in this mod. Those birches use standard MnB trees meshes and have texture attached done by me.

So far that is it. I mean those are just two objects I have done for that mod. There are also other birches subtype objects, like those trunks you can see on the image. I have also made the upper, chopped-off parts of the trees, that are going to be used as wooden logs in mod. If you guys got any interested you can see also non-birch trunk on the image above, that is a part of pine tree. It surely got chopped too. The thing is I did trunks and pre-logs for all tree meshes that I'm going to use in mod. That is about 15 types of trees placed already on the scene and I will probably add a few more. That image above shows the forest I create on the scene. Currently the forest consists of trees only, but I intend on putting into it some old, semi-rotten logs, stones and bushes. That forest occupies about 5% of the total area on the scene currently and it is meant to hold about 80%. All those trees are placed manually and that takes a bit of time. Those trees are scene props and there is about 1125 of them now placed. I have made LODs for them so they aren't making way lot of lag in game, yet a bit for sure for older PCs.

I will probably start doing a cloth with some golden belt that is going to be used as a decorative thing, you as a player will be able to wear. That might take me from few hours to a week if I get some problems with rigging and I bet I will. I'll put that new object's screens here too, so you guys might grab some impression of a bit lordly life comforts I'd wish to implement in mod too. In the breaks between making that cloth I'll try to write a bit more about some planned aspects of gaming in mod. Those are going to be like the balance of time to be spend between building and ruling - fighting - and decorating your indoor areas with some non-usable items like furnitures (but those are really going to look great!).

See you later.

 

[xenoargh]

You're going to have some pretty big issues with that many trees, if you want them to all be dynamic.  They'll all have to run some code every few frames.

Look... if I were you, I would not start building scenery right now. 

For something like this, that's the last step, and tbh, you probably wouldn't want to do it that way anyhow- you'd want to do it dynamically at game start, so that maps are randomized, giving the game a lot of replay value.

Anyhow, I feel like this is not the approach that's likely to work.  There aren't very many high-level gamecode folks here, and we're all kind of busy.  This is basically a whole new game using the engine's real-time battle system as a toolset; it's probably out of scope for most of the coders here, but if there was something about it that made it more than just a copy of games that already exist and are better, it might get some interest. 

If you want to get some serious attention, build some AAA-level art to get a good coder drooling and design mockups of the UI and write a well-organized overview of what you'd need, in terms of the business case.

Then you need to get some analysis from the coder after they've built some code and you've built some content. 

Right now, do what you're supposed to be good at, which is using art tools, while trying to think about how you'd want the game to play and how the UI would have to get developed to facilitate control.  It's not even time for quick mockup work like what you've shown, though, and you need to build for Warband anyhow, not 1.011- normalmaps and all that.  If you're going to pitch, pitch at the level of the people whose attention you'd like.

 

[Mad Vader]

You may want to go over to the Persistent World mod and see what they have done. It's multiplayer only, but you can see what is possible in Warband with large persistent scenes, if something is possible, they've probably done it.
There's also another mod that thrives on big scenes, Conspiracy of Kings, but it's not done, and it focuses on story.
Personally, I think it's too much trouble bumping into engine restrictions all the time, the Warband engine is not really made for neither building nor adventuring in scenes, it's all about the next massive battle.
Also, you may need to post a clear summary of what exactly you want to do, as it's unclear from your first post. I'm not sure I've got it, and I've read it twice. Judging by the tone, you also seem to underestimate how much coding work is there.
And that's all, good luck.

 

[duck83]

Thank you guys for your interest for this thread. I know you two are experienced gamers and coders here and it's really great you decided to speak up a bit.

I have played Persistent World and thought it was great. Still it lacked a bit of simulation-like elements. I mean there were many things done like in real world. Chopping trees, harvesting grain, getting gold and so forth, but even despite mod's awesomeness it felt a bit PC-game like. I know it might sound odd. Still I believe that MnB WB already offers that sort of depth that could be used for making it splendid. Way lot more, than a common PC game. I just think about making that mod that might go a bit beyond standard understanding of PC games. I just wish to make a really fun simulator, not quite a game where your goal is set for xp and gold. I wish it was a bit more about other feelings (apart xp and gold), like seeing that you create a land of medieval setting, live in it and get yourself educated a lot about medieval. I have graduated with the specialization on XI/XII century medieval daily life in Europe. I got past through about 40, thick with information books about that period and that didn't bore me. It just made me thrilled about all that thing even more. I know some might not share the same interest, but the goal of this mod is to make simulation. I wish I had the same good feeling while reading books about Python coding. I know the basics. I learned about them, still my mind isn't that logical to get past through imagining on how advanced codes work.

On the other hand I have some sort of good recognition of what I need to achieve in borders WB's engine creates. I'll write it in list.

1. The code for scene props disappear permanently from scene if destroyed (even after another next entering into the scene).

2. The code for dialogue option, making the order to move to a pre-set location and start attacking any nearest item next to the pre-set location. That thing is the hardest thing I imagine that would need to be done in the whole coding process.

It is needed for "bots" to go, if ordered, to the lumberjack camp, or farm or quarry, or ironsmithy, or any other economical basing location. There that "bot" would need to automatically start chopping trees, harvesting grain or do any other thing for a piece of time. Then it would start doing nothing (like starting the laying on the ground animation) for another piece of time. After that the loop would start again and he would get back to his working activity.

3. The code for spawning enemy party in one of the entries and making it move towards one of three player's locations (could be randomized). After the spawn the location mask would be needed to got changed for battle one. After all enemy agents would got killed the mask would be needed to get restored to the "peaceful" one.

4. The last crucial code for counting the resources gathered and adding them to the player's chest. That is if a tree would got chopped it would be transported to lumberjack camp by the serf (making the animation is my goal). In that moment that resource counter code would need to add one log to the player's chest. I mean it might not need to be done strictly dynamical. The log could be stored in some string or anything and got added after player re-enters the scene.

That is it. Four codes that are crucial to this mod. I'll say one more thing about that re-entering the scene. At current I plan for automatic re-enter every 15 minutes of the game. Might be, it would got stretched to an hour if that was to become necessary. The automatic re-enter would be like the saving of the progress. So all chopped trees would be permanently removed. All other resources gathered would be removed. The counter for gathered resources would be actualized and proper amount would be added to chest. "Bots" would start again their previous tasks automatically. Saying it straight, I lied, that re-entering autosave is the final 5th crucial code that would need to organize the functions of the previous four.

On top of that player would be able save his game normally via ESC menu, just to save the progress of the game and keep the resources attached to the player next time he loads his game (also via classic menu - just normal WB function).

About building structures. There would a bunch of pre-set locations for building that player might erect during the game. That progress of buildings already added would be connected with the first code. It would be done like through dialogue menu with a chamberlain or someone like that and by choosing which building the player would want to build. Builder serfs would need to be ordered "manually" (via their dialogue menu) to go the site and start their building tasks. After some serf's working loops would got ended, building would got spawned from under the ground (I guess that mod that allows player to build there towns uses spawns like that. I forgot the name of that mod. Played it though. It was a great time.).

I would wish to get two more codes but those are cosmetics. First is making the day night cycle actually work. It would be like the day scene was going to be attached to village mission template and night to the town mission template. That would allow me to change the skybox without changing the scene. It would work (I think, it's quite a guess) if the same scene was set for two world map locations. After the day is over (like after that mentioned 15 mins) the player would leave village location and the needed code here would automatically attach him to the town location with autoenter menu that would load night skybox in that same scene. The loop then would start in a sort of reverse mode and after the night time is over, player would be "transported to" day location, that is the one with village mission template. I don't know if that would work however that well I imagine. I think, that village and town mission templates are pretty much the same in terms of functions granted to them. Still I might be wrong. It might be there's no way it might work. The cause might be based on different "leaving" of the battle mode after enemy party got spawned. I mean I guess that village mission template can switch modes easily. I don't know if town's can do the same.

This whole thing about night/day cycles might be really hard to achieve. Still I am aware everything I ask for is dead hard to achieve.

Last code, not a crucial one would be meant to work like a dynamical entry point for every agent. So if the autosave would start and scene would got re-loaded all agents wouldn't move to the static, starting entry point. Instead of starting in start entry point agents would start in their previous location. That code most probably is near to impossible to achieve, or totally not possible because of engine's limitations. Still that is a cosmetic I really wish to have, yet the world wouldn't end without it.

Thank any of you who got to that point for your attention. That mod's need list is over. That mod apart of that coding would need a lot of care in terms of making scene props, animations, items and a lot more things I'm really thrilled on thinking on doing.

In the end I'd like to ask anyone who did made through that wall of text to try to judge if those codes are possible at all to make. I am aware that even if those codes are possible, I might never find someone willing to help on writing them. Yet as you two guys, xenoargh and MadVader suggested, I made my first step. I written about the concept from a technical point of view. It's like I have said at the beginning of this post - I really appreciate your effort on reading my previous posts and giving some advices.


I have also written in the earlier post I intended on doing some cloth mesh. Here's a picture. It's basically only a texture changed a bit. The base for it is nobleman's outfit. I know that for all you guys craving for the battle glory such sort of items are totally worthless in current game. My idea of making things like that one for this mod would be based on showing some distinction of player's character. On the other hand items like that, if accumulated are going to be precious enough, that after selling them, player will be able to buy more proper items, like swords i.e.

The picture above is lord at the gate of his wooden keep.

 

[Mad Vader]

I'll post some quick answers, and I believe xeno would add much more.

1. Persistently destroyed scene props.
Easy. Associate an array (slots) with all the destroyable props. If the prop gets destroyed, mark that in your array. When the scene gets reloaded, remove props that are destroyed according to your array. Slots are saved with your save game, so you can use them to store persistent information.

2. Telling a bot to go somewhere and attack hostiles with a scene dialog is easy. What might be hard is to contain him in a limited area, as he'll go chasing after hostiles all over the scene. There are couple of tricks to overcome this, but you need to describe what should typically happen in such scenarios.

3. What mask? You can make bots hostile or friendly at will, no need to change anything, imo.

4. Counting and remembering stuff is easy. Representing logs by adding log scene props may require some planning, if that's what you are asking.

5. There's no need to auto-reenter every 15 minutes. The scene is changed in realtime, and you record the state of various objects on the scene in global variables and slots, as the scene changes - these are only used when the player saves, exits and reloads a game, to restore the state of the scene.

Here's an exercise for you, if you like coding.
Make a scene with several destroyable props. Keep the status (destroyed or not) of those props in global variables (those are saved with games). Write code to restore the scene on scene load, by removing the props that were marked destroyed in your globals.
That kind of prototype will make things clearer.

 

[duck83]

Thank you for your reply MadVader.

I'd gladly exercise on making that suggested code if if ever got the chance to start thinking the way on how to make it. You have written to assign a global variable. I have found info like a command that I can use called "assign" and also found that I can use to identify global variables by their pre-name "$" value, but I really don't know the basics. I mean I don't know if I can invent variable names myself or not?

Like: (assign, "$tree_present", scene_prop_destroyed) in ti_on_scene_prop_destroyed and (assign, "$tree_present", scene_prop_...dunno what?) in ti_on_scene_prop)init?

The example above shows how much faltering in writing the codes I am. Sadly. I don't even know the difference between instance_id and instance_no.

I have started a thread two months back where xenoargh and cmpxchg8b wrote me a code which I was meant to put in my module system files.

Here's the link if anyone wishes to read it again -> http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,261002.0.html

I faltered there too. I mean I was meant to put two parts of code into two different files and I did that, yet I had an info about a value not defined while processing the module files. Xenoargh did replied to that and still I couldn't help myself much. He also wrote about writing a checker and that sounded quite like a total cosmic journey to me. Perhaps the lack of it made the whole thing the code guys wrote didn't work.

I hope it all doesn't sound like a complain? I know that exercising idea was meant to push me a bit and set on the right route on doing things myself. It's like I'd love to, but I don't know how. I'm good in putting new items into game and making them in wings3d. I decided to make some mushroom meshes. I know it sounds comically, but that is a sort of thing I feel well while doing.

It seems this whole thread will get to nowhere probably. I'll try to make more scan on search module on the forum. Still I guess it's quite like fighting with the mills to me

Thanks for your effort on trying to understand the idea of that mod. I will make such threads with a bit more precise info form time time over and over again and hope I'll find an ally For now I'll make those mushrooms and will do the scene. Perhaps I'll start making some art like xenoargh proposed. Time will tell.

 

[Mad Vader]

Yeah, you may really need a coder. Your previous thread is full of very useful advice, and you should try to make that code work. I hope you at least appreciate now that serious coding is a hard, skilled work, although it's much less visible than models.
As xeno mentioned before, coders don't grow on trees and decent ones are hard or impossible to get, that's why you need to be prepared to do everything on your own, and that includes learning just enough coding so you can do what you need to do by yourself. Actually, that's a real "Modding 101" advice: you are on your own, whatever help you get is a bonus, so don't count on getting any.

 

[Mad Vader]

Here's another idea how to make your building and fighting sim. It is radical.

Don't use a scene - use the world map.
Your workers and warriors can be represented by map parties, and special locations can be placed on the world map to signify different buildings, farms or workshops. You can even let the player place (="build") them there.

Pros: it's much simpler to control parties than agents.
Cons: less opportunities to show off graphics with map icons and terrain textures, although you can make each building a scene you can visit.

 

[Lumos]

Here's another idea how to make your building and fighting sim. It is radical.

Don't use a scene - use the world map.

Oh... that's an awesome idea. You can have an empty section being the settlement, then the player, by moving around, could spawn parties that are actually buildings! Yes!
If pulled off, that would be a really good thing, y'know. I'd like to see how it would look in a working state.

 

[Mad Vader]

I'd like to see it too, it has the potential to be an interesting feature for creative players.

 

[xenoargh]

Agreed about the using the world map idea, although then he'll run into a fairly serious issue- production of all of the vertex animations necessary to make it look good.  BTW, world-map objects are allowed to use all of the fancy shaders and stuff (er, at least over here on my box they are).