Need a good deal of noob map editing adivce.

[Renegade122]

Hey guys.  For starters, I feel the need to give a disclaimer that most people who are doing this stuff fairly often might find my questions imbecilic, and I suppose rightfully so.  Nonetheless, I've been recently trying to get some map ideas down and every time I try I just end up lost and frustrated.  There seems to be a fair amount of tutorials and editing threads around but none seem to directly cover what it is I'm having trouble with.  As it is, every time I end a fail session in map editing, I come to the realization that the best way to learn the more basic concepts of this whole process would be to have someone to work with in person and show me the ropes.  As that unfortunately isn't the case, I was hoping some of you guys didn't mind giving me the basic concepts of what I'm having trouble with via the forums here, which I expect to be the next best thing.  I can't imagine there are too many willing to go in depth giving me the 411 on this stuff, though really any answers to the coming questions I've got would be appreciated.   

I'll let you know what my initial attempts at map making were to try to give you an understanding from an editing-literate perspective what it is I may I have been doing wrong. 

The first thing I ever really tried doing was creating a Mines of Moria Siege Map for the 22nd server.  I figured Moria could provide alot of neat battles, if the different areas were done correctly, such as the entrance, the terraces, the great hall, the tomb, the bridge of Khazad Dum, etc.  I couldn't even get past the entrance though. 

I was able to get Moria's basic walls/cliff faces that would be on either side of the dungeon entrance door, but as the only way I knew how to create such walls is to elevate the ground, I couldn't place anything directly above the entrance.  To combat this my plan was to stuff a bunch of rocks and boulders on top of the entrance, in order to try to get the walls on either side and the walls right above the entrance to look more or less the same.  I have seen rock and boulder objects in various user created maps.  Are these things in scene objects?  If so, what are they called?  I basically went one by one through the object list and couldn't find any.  Furthermore, I also didn't have any idea how to manage creating caverns in which the various dungeon objects could be placed.  I have seen such things though in different mods.  How exactly would one go about creating an area in which you could insert these underground elements of a map such as Moria?

The next thing I was wondering was how to go about getting siege specific items, such as the flag objective, into the map.  I couldn't find this either in the object lists.  The way I have been editing has been to format a module called editing, host an online game ,and use ctrl+e to edit it from there.  Do I need to host a Siege game in order to create siege maps?

Lastly, I just have a quick question about mesh.  Again while trying to create Moria, I had placed a dungeon object for the entrance to Moria, but the mesh didn't seem to go up through the entrance and allow you to walk inside the placed dungeon.  My guy would just walk though the object.  Does this have something to do with when I created the mesh? 

Well those are my most eminent of questions; I really appreciate beforehand anyone willing help me out. 

 

[superspy228]

Lastly, I just have a quick question about mesh.  Again while trying to create Moria, I had placed a dungeon object for the entrance to Moria, but the mesh didn't seem to go up through the entrance and allow you to walk inside the placed dungeon.  My guy would just walk though the object.  Does this have something to do with when I created the mesh? 

Do you have a collision mesh in it?

 

[Vornne]

I was able to get Moria's basic walls/cliff faces that would be on either side of the dungeon entrance door, but as the only way I knew how to create such walls is to elevate the ground, I couldn't place anything directly above the entrance.  To combat this my plan was to stuff a bunch of rocks and boulders on top of the entrance, in order to try to get the walls on either side and the walls right above the entrance to look more or less the same.  I have seen rock and boulder objects in various user created maps.  Are these things in scene objects?  If so, what are they called?  I basically went one by one through the object list and couldn't find any.  Furthermore, I also didn't have any idea how to manage creating caverns in which the various dungeon objects could be placed.  I have seen such things though in different mods.  How exactly would one go about creating an area in which you could insert these underground elements of a map such as Moria?

The rock scene props are in the "Plants" category - select it in the menu box above the scene prop list.

The next thing I was wondering was how to go about getting siege specific items, such as the flag objective, into the map.  I couldn't find this either in the object lists.  The way I have been editing has been to format a module called editing, host an online game ,and use ctrl+e to edit it from there.  Do I need to host a Siege game in order to create siege maps?

See these threads for details.

Lastly, I just have a quick question about mesh.  Again while trying to create Moria, I had placed a dungeon object for the entrance to Moria, but the mesh didn't seem to go up through the entrance and allow you to walk inside the placed dungeon.  My guy would just walk though the object.  Does this have something to do with when I created the mesh?

Not sure exactly what you mean here; but making dungeons you can walk into from an outdoor scene normally ends up being very hacky and troublesome to do... with a bit of persistence, you might be able to figure something out so the top of the supposedly underground area is covered or inaccessable - you could either cover it with a lot of scene props (or a few scaled large) or wall off an area of the scene for the underground part. If you are using native interior scene props, maybe the mesh has no entrances?

 

[Renegade122]

@Superspy  Ha idk, I'm not even sure what collision mesh is.

@Vornne  Sorry about the ambiguity.  What I had meant, when talking about "Does this have something to do with when I create the mesh?" is should I use the auto-mesh creator tool before or after I place all the props within the map.

 

[Vornne]

I don't know what you mean by "auto mesh creator tool". Do you mean changing the scene code in module_scenes.py, using the terrain editing mode, or something else? If you make large changes to the scene code (with the module system) after placing objects in it, you may run into problems - but just editing the terrain with the in game edit mode can be done before or after placing scene props, in any order.

The best way to start making a totally new scene is to generate a good base terrain in single player terrain generator mode, then copy the code from that to module_scenes.py (or scenes.txt if you are tweaking the txt files), remove or move away the Modules/MyModule/scn_multi_whatever.sco if it exists already, start the game with "Host a Game" in the multiplayer menu and load the scene, then go into edit mode and start tweaking; the game will create the new scene file. I haven't ever tried to apply a new generated base terrain code to a scene that had props already placed on it, but I've seen threads here about other people having glitches and other problems from doing it. If you have placed a large amount of scene props and don't want to redo it, you could keep the original terrain code and sculpt the terrain to suit with the edit mode instead - it's just a case of which would be the most work, redoing the terrain or the scene props.

 

[xenoargh]

By auto-mesh creator tool, he probably means the AI mesh generator.

I hope you don't think I'm a jerk for saying this, but... as somebody who's built a fair number of custom scenes... this is not a good first project. 

Something like an indoor/outdoor scene with a tunnel through a mountain that is functional, AI-friendly and doesn't suck will take an enormous amount of patience and skill.  You need to know how to make custom models, collision meshes, and generally understand the engine.  This is not a newbie project on this engine, because this engine isn't using brushes, it uses a fancy terrain system and complex props, and the lighting system is not really designed to handle this very well.  I really strongly suggest you pick something a wee bit easier, frankly.

Try building something easier first.  We can't walk you through something like this, if you're not even sure what an AI mesh is for yet.  If you want to do something Tolkien, then do a battle scene around the Tower of Orthanc.  Pretty "easy"- just a big tower that you don't have to let players use, if you don't want, surrounded by a park with trees, paths, etc.

By the time you're done making the Tower, making a collision mesh for same, building the scene, building an AI mesh so that AI players can navigate it, etc., you will have learned most of the skills to try something as ambitious as what you want to do here, but the learning curve will be a bit less than a cliff 

 

[Renegade122]

@Vornne  Yea I was talking about what xenoargh has said, the AI mesh generator. 


@Xenoargh I had just thought that AI mesh was essentially where people can walk...though as you said, it seems to be something a little bigger.  Ha and don't worry, I certainly wouldn't think of you as a jerk for pointing out the obvious here, and I myself have felt Moria might be a bit too optimistic.  I kept trying however due to an overwhelming flow of ideas I had about how enjoyable it might be with one hundred-fifty players. 

In the end though, I'm hesitant to set myself in steadily mapping lighter scenes when I still don't know most of the basics...perhaps not, but it seems to me it would be like trying to read though your illiterate--you can look at the words all you want, but your never really gonna know what they mean.  Admittedly I'm not totally diving into the whole mapping process to learn every facet of it and become an expert...half-assing, in other words...yet I guess what I had hoped was  that the M&B mapping would be more of simply understanding the editing tools, and not all the file locations, coding, and other knowledge that is apparently needed.

I did have some ideas though for some lighter scenes as you have been suggesting...stuff like the battle of crecy or maybe agincourt...played as siege maps but stylized as more like open field combat maps.  Are there any servers that bother testing such things?   

 

[xenoargh]

Well, you can make pretty good scenes without having to know more than just the editor's basics.  What you can't do is fantasy settings or settings that require really complex terrains.  That requires custom meshes, etc., and it gets real complicated, real fast.

Something like Agincourt / Crecy might work fine, though, if you can find pictures of the battlefield that are accurate.  Agincourt is probably fairly easy, since the terrain was pretty flat and it had two distinct "sides" that would make for a good MP map.  This looks pretty good:

I did a smaller version of a battlefield like this for my mod, and was reasonably easy to do.  Gotta watch out for the tree-count, though- it will be harder than you'd think to build it and have decent framerates, simply because a decent dense forest on a realistic scale requires a lot of trees.  But if you aimed the map at MP with lower battle sizes, you could make it half-scale and nobody would notice, most likely.

 

[Renegade122]

Well in the case of tree issue, perhaps I'll go with Crecy.  My main concern is essentially player control-- I don't want the oblivious folks to just be running around creating another team deathmatch in an open field.  The only reason something like a battle of Agincourt or Crecy had worked as battle locations was due to formations and ranking officers keeping people in line.  I feel like with Crecy you would have better chance of having both sides understand their role in the battle, as one side is on higher ground in a more defensive position, and one is in more of an open field, with two rivers channeling them towards their goal; slap a siege flag to take behind the English lines and I think things should roll fairly smoothly.  Anyways I'll see what I can drum up, and maybe shoot you a screenshot or two for some feedback.     

 

[Flanged]

I was able to get Moria's basic walls/cliff faces that would be on either side of the dungeon entrance door, but as the only way I knew how to create such walls is to elevate the ground, I couldn't place anything directly above the entrance. 

You know about the hotkeys for moving/rotating objects?  Why not just place one of the castle gateways over the canyon entrance and use the hotkey T to move it down so that it's sunk into the ground, becoming a sort of cave entry.  You can use the B key to scale it up or down uniformly, and the x,y, and z keys to scale it on a particular axis.  You'll still have to find a way to "roof in" the rest of the caves, though.  Scaled up rocks (found under the plants tab) or a rotated castle wall would do it.  The castle parts you would probably want to use would come under "destroyed" in the list of objects.  i think they'd look most Moria-ish, but I'm not that familiar with the place.

Lastly, I just have a quick question about mesh.  Again while trying to create Moria, I had placed a dungeon object for the entrance to Moria, but the mesh didn't seem to go up through the entrance and allow you to walk inside the placed dungeon.  My guy would just walk though the object.  Does this have something to do with when I created the mesh? 

After placing an object you sometimes have to save the scene, Tab out of it, then go back to the scene before the collision mesh will work.  At least that's how it worked pre-Warband.  If it's the AI mesh you mean, then that's a little bit more complex.

 

[MadocComadrin]

Cave maps such as Moria are definitely possible. GK had a Moria map running before we switched to completely siege. We also have another map called Black Knights' Lair that is an indoor-outdoor map that takes place inside a cave.