[NC2019] Group Stage Week 1

[Fietta]

EDIT: Wrote this on phone so, probably makes little sense.

No, I'm not saying the French team are bad guys, in fact the move you made was smart as a team. The only issue I have is that you cant ask for a rematch when almost the entire match was unaffected, if that were the case, I'd just ask for a rematch for every draw I make, that way I still have a chance of winning. But you cant just throw out a draw because someone stole your hat, the only allowance you should get is a set replay, as your gold from your 2 - 0 was affected, thus, means the entire set could've had a different outcome, the other sets are unaffected. I'm glad you agree though, and I'm glad you're not denying the fact that you settled for a rematch as it's the only outcome where the risk of losing is slim compared to replaying the last set.

The admins allowing you for an entire rematch is extremely unjust, but that's for them to decide. You should either keep with the draw or play the last set. Tardet I know you're smart enough to agree with the decision that should've been made rather than the decision that has currently been made, even if it doesnt benefit your team.

Not only that but the punishment for a player cheating on a team, is that all relevant rounds are forfeited and not the entire match gets replayed (according to the rules), your case is obviously a different scenario but the punishment is just and is an accurate example of how rounds and sets are managed; none of the previous 3 sets were ever relevant to the issue on the final set, and such should not be allowed to be altered. Allowing a rematch for any tom **** 'n' harry reason would be detrimental to any decisions made by future tournament admins. Heres the passage from the rules on just reasoning.

§ 2 Cheating

(1) It is strictly prohibited to gain an advantage by modifying texture files or using game modifications such as aimbots or autoblock. Every player that is found to have modified texture files or using game modifications in order to gain an advantage will be banned from the tournament and his or her team will have to forfeit all relevant rounds.

There should be no alterations to previous tournament decisions based on loopholes within the rules (mainly because it's not on there), but deciphering current rules to find just and accurate methods of match replayability and set replayability based on similar abstract scenarios, clearly shows us that a rematch even if it benefits both teams (which it doesnt) has no real reasoning behind it and shouldn't be allowed. In no circumstance should there be a 'first time' scenario, where administrators completely disregard previous decisions to create their own unjust scenario based on loopholes as theres currently no justification behind playing the 3 previous sets.

Of course this is just for future decisions as I believe the current decision has already been made (I'm glad the other 7 administrators didn't pick up on the issue, minor or not).

 

[부부를 넘어서 가자]

This is actually sad. Any way of finding out who that spastic is?

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

In another tournament after a similar incident Gorlock, Yami, and Surkan pushed to recreate the situation as accurately as possible and replay the round, I was against it but for once I was WRONG and it worked out fine.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,350873.msg8505072.html#msg8505072

If you have it streamed or the server logs, should be doable if both teams accept.

 

[Charlini]

In another tournament after a similar incident Gorlock, Yami, and Surkan pushed to recreate the situation as accurately as possible and replay the round, I was against it but for once I was WRONG and it worked out fine.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,350873.msg8505072.html#msg8505072

If you have it streamed or the server logs, should be doable if both teams accept.

trying smth similar to this is what I suggested, just replay from 2-0 on going recreating similar economy conditions

 

[Tardet]

This is actually sad. Any way of finding out who that spastic is?

Watly made a post about the whole situation here but the short story is, it won't be easy to find out who it is, as you can expect it.

In another tournament after a similar incident Gorlock, Yami, and Surkan pushed to recreate the situation as accurately as possible and replay the round, I was against it but for once I was WRONG and it worked out fine.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,350873.msg8505072.html#msg8505072

If you have it streamed or the server logs, should be doable if both teams accept.

That's also what we suggested but since at the time of the incident, both teams agreed to just restart with default-gear at 2-0, Watly deemed the option of re-re-playing that round with the actual set-up unfair for Turkey, which I can understand.

Something which wasn't brought at all during any of the discussion we had with Turkey, but that Watly knows, is that after we agreed to reset, Turkey changed their set-up. If you use common sense, it shouldn't be allowed and replaying the round should mean replaying it with the exact same classes, at the very least. I don't think Turkey meant any harm by doing that, probably at the time they felt like it was a good idea but it still not allowed as per the rules and that's why I strongly feel that in this situation, there is no 'perfect' decision and one team will always end up being treated with a slight disadvantage, no matter what.

I also want to mention that I believe it's important to discuss this because, while it may likely not impact France too much in this competition given it was a group stage match, whatever is decided here will create a precedent for future tournaments. I understand people who, same as Fietta, believe that the fairest option would be to replay the second map or set and like I mentioned it above, I can also understand Watly's decision of disregarding a recreation of that round with the exact same condition (even though I am glad to see some people agree that it would still be the best decision).

That's why after discussing each of these points on teamspeask yesterday and given the circumstances, we felt like starting over from scratch would be the best thing to do. Not the fairest for both teams, as I don't think we can find one which is equally fair for the two of us. But it would be a decent middle-ground. There is still a dozen of reasons why this replay will end-up not happening (aside of these mentioned in that thread) and we will aim at taking a final decision on that with Turkey before Thursday (probably even before that).

As far as I am concerned, that's all I have to say about the current situation. I will let you guys discuss the issue and repercussion it could have on other tournaments if you wish to, but I have another match to prepare with my team this week.

 

[Fietta]

I mean you've created an argument against not playing the last round which is fair, but not the last set; playing the last set would be the fairest and most reasonable option, any other option is clearly worse and has no justification around why it's better.  The only reason you (Tardet) would disagree with that option is that it doesn't benefit your team as you'd have to win 3 - 0 to win the match whilst Turkey 2 - 3. It just seems like silly administration decisions.

 

[Rayden]

i agree last set has nothing to do with previous 3 sets that we played but we also cant ignore that france had armor advantage when the incident happened, it also does not fit turkey to say we will take the draw. so, if everything goes smooth (if our opponents agree to play on sunday and we can find people to play with france) then we will replay the match.

besides result is not that important in group stage afaik since first 3 will qualify

 

[Fietta]

Fantastic, so you agree that the previous 3 sets have nothing to do with the final set, and they had the armour advantage on the last set, so why are you replaying the entire match? It's not about it being fair, it's about what's the right way of going about it and what's the wrong way, otherwise everyone could just replay their draws, and in the case of a group stage, a draw does have an affect on the positioning of the groups. What's the point in having a group stage when you could just replay your match willy nilly.

 

[Rayden]

i thought same as you and offered that yesterday but they didn't accept and there were no referee or admin there at that moment, they offered us to play from 2-0 and they gave up their armor so it seemed fair and we continued from 2-0 mate

and now both teams want to replay prolly cuz they think this time they got this 

 

[Hero_of_Ferelden]

Gorlock, Yami, and Surkan

hello???

 

[Surkan]

In another tournament after a similar incident Gorlock, Yami, and Surkan pushed to recreate the situation as accurately as possible and replay the round, I was against it but for once I was WRONG and it worked out fine.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,350873.msg8505072.html#msg8505072

If you have it streamed or the server logs, should be doable if both teams accept.

my brain is in fact very large

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

Think that was everyone yep

 

[부부를 넘어서 가자]

surkan is every tournaments hosts idol

 

[Caius_III]

Fietta, mind your business, if they have an agreement and want to replay the whole match then so be it. Yona's solution was the best one anyway.

 

[Fietta]

I think you misunderstand, rules are everyone's business, if two teams want a rematch with no justification then it most definitely involves everyone. Hence why the only people who thinks it's ok is the two teams involved. I wasnt born yesterday and I know the exact intentions of this rematch (pretty much confirmed by what Rayden said) which is the wrong way of going about it.

 

[Caius_III]

And the only one who thinks that it's not ok is you. Not a surprise though.

It's not like there's somebody randomly joining the server every single match + saying that the set should be replayed but not the whole match is extremely silly because French clearly had an armor advantage, you make absolutely 0 sense, the fairest thing would be to replicate the conditions of this round yet how could they ? They decided to replay the whole match, which is a good decision and they already said that if not the result would not be changed, so what's the problem ?

If it happens again Yona's solution is the best one but in order to prevent it to happen let's try to change the password of the server before the matches and give it only to the streamers and the captains of each team.

 

[Fietta]

People have been giving suggestions on what should happen, I very much doubt people this this is the correct option. Besides, considering you're part of the team who refused to play the last set after Turkey offered because you knew that there was a high chance of losing, doesnt really give you any reason to talk about it. You're lucky Watly was dumb enough to go ahead. The best solution to the current issue, is for you to replay the last set and again, you cannot deny that the only reason you want a rematch is because you're scared of losing the last set as youd have to win 3 - 0 and is too big of a risk. Also I'm not advocating the last round replay, I'm saying play the final set again sheesh. Currently no one has even given a reason as to why the entire final set can't be played, I'll tell you exactly what both teams think and the scenario, and please don't disagree with facts.

The French team were 2 - 0 up, some stupid loser came in and decided to TK, but the french team was confident they'd win the next round, so they agreed to replay the what they though 'final' round on a map reset.
The French team are now upset because the final result was a draw, when their 'win' was rightfully taken away by poor decisions, with that in mind Turkey asked if you'd like to play the last set, to which the french team declined.
The French team knew that replaying the last set could mean an easy defeat, as they'd have to win 3 - 0 to win the match and Turkey would only have to win 2 - 3, so why would they accept the offer?
Instead, the French team decided to do a counter offer which involved replaying the entire match as they believe they have a higher chance of winning than to play the last set, Turkey also have large EGOs decided to 'accept' the offer (even though this shouldn't be the case as there's no justification around playing the entire match when 3 sets weren't affected). Somehow and for no good reason, Watly accepted the decision, even though it was clearly unjust and the reasoning was NOT because of the situation, but because they want to win, as do Turkey. Now, when it came to arguing against the final set, it was very clear, so these people (French players) are only arguing against an unjust reason because it benefits them, even though they ALL know it's the wrong decision.

Your reasoning is literally 'what's the issue if they agreed', are you forgetting rules? There shouldn't be a choice to replay the entire match, because it literally makes no sense wtf.

 

[Tardet]

Caius is in the BeNe team Fietta, not the French one.

Also as far as I remember, Turkey did not offer anything or that wasn't mentioned to me during our discussion. I believe they were fine with the outcome of the match and we were the only ones unhappy with the draw. There was also a confusion with Watly when we talked to him, he thought we wanted to replay the last set when we asked for the replay of the whole match, so that's probably why it also confused the Turkish players aswell.

I'm not even arguing against your reasoning of replaying the last set because the reasoning makes sense, but you should double-check your info because you still seem to have some of it wrong, which seems normal to me since you were not there at the time.

 

[Fietta]

Caius is in the BeNe team Fietta, not the French one.

Also as far as I remember, Turkey did not offer anything or that wasn't mentioned to me during our discussion. I believe they were fine with the outcome of the match and we were the only ones unhappy with the draw. There was also a confusion with Watly when we talked to him, he thought we wanted to replay the last set when we asked for the replay of the whole match, so that's probably why it also confused the Turkish players aswell.

I'm not even arguing against your reasoning of replaying the last set because the reasoning makes sense, but you should double-check your info because you still seem to have some of it wrong, which seems normal to me since you were not there at the time.

Yes he's in BeNe but for years have played in Legend/Unity, when talking with Watly, Watly clearly said that he agreed with the replaying of the entire match and mentioned my reasoning of the last set as unjust and replied with 'there's always a first time for everything'. From what Watly has told me, he knew exactly what the terms were between these two teams. So the information I've recieved was directly from Watly, what 'seems' to be wrong is that you've been mislead.

 

[Tardet]

That still doesn't make Ciaus a member of the actual French team, so addressing him as if he was personally impacted by the result last night doesn't make any sense.

That doesn't weaken your argument in the slightest, it's just a point of detail but Caius (despite obviously being a friend of ours) speaks for his own self and isn't involved with either teams impacted by the current issue.