[NC2016] Suggestions

[Snusmakaren]

Sad to hear about the score adjustment, feels so wrong

 

[Shoxi]

Oh yea aeronwen is stronk women

Someone has to write decisions, she is just doing job

 

[S_]

blue javs = all past results gone, Playing with arni = ahhh forget about it tis ok your results stand, Im sure blue javs do more than arni  blue javs 7-0 arni

 

[Fietta]

Maybe you should give IG vs KURWA win in WNL5 because of Arni which puts IG into knockouts.

 

[Orion]

FWIW, here is the PM I sent to the admins about my thoughts on recent events.

Hello,

I'm not directly involved in anything in this NC, so whatever decision the admins come up with won't effect me, but I feel the need to advocate for the NA team to an extent because of what I have seen done so far. Take that as you will, but I'd appreciate your time reading this if nothing else. I would try to be brief, but this is a complicated matter. I apologize for the length, and I'll provide a tl;dr at the end.

Some punishment is necessary. This is not up for debate, and I believe all parties acknowledge it. The severity of the punishment is in question. The rules are clear that a player using a texture modification that is not specifically excepted (bannerpacks and crosshairs) is to be banned from play. This is good, and I trust you will follow through. However, the rules are not clear regarding time to report & further punishment, specifically regarding "significant advantage" and the forfeiture of relevant rounds. The emphasis will be explained later.

Concerned players must post their screenshot within 30 minutes of the match ending on the forums or send it to a tournament admin or the match referee.

The rules clearly state that reports must be made within 30 minutes of a match's completion. They do not state what consideration will be given to reports made after that point, so this is open to interpretation, and I would argue that it is implied they will not be given credence for various reasons (photoshopping, as an example, though I doubt that happened in this case). Because the results of the NA v FIN match were not reported, and any admin responsible for reviewing the supplied screenshots for the purposes of confirming reported scores also did not notice any rule violation at the time, then all parties are at fault. NA is at fault for evident violation of the rules, but FIN and the reviewing admin(s) are at fault for their lack of vigilance in reporting & enforcing the rules as implied by the above quoted rule. For this reason, if no other, it is unfair to NA to punish them for this match without punishing the other parties at fault; furthermore, because all parties are at fault and FIN has stated their desire for the original result to stand, I believe it is best for no parties to be punished for the NA v FIN match.

Obviously, because the NA v AUT incident was reported the above consideration is not relevant to it. However, now I will explain the previous emphasis of relevant rounds and the concerns I have regarding "significant advantage." For reference, here's the rule as it is written:

If a player is found to have broken any of the rules during a match and the admins determine that a significant advantage was gained, that player’s team will forfeit the relevant rounds.

First, because it is absolute, are you certain that only relevant rounds were forfeited in the NA v AUT match? Allow me to further clarify in this way: are there any rounds in which Arys' texture mod would have been irrelevant because of a lack of javelins, does his texture mod change more than just javelins (and is there reliable proof of this), and if so are there still any rounds in which his mod would have been irrelevant? Further, can/will this be enforced with empirical evidence? I'm aware the match was streamed, and as far as I'm aware Arys' texture mod only applies to javelins, so has anyone gone through the stream to see if there are any rounds in which javelins were not used, and do the results of those rounds stand as they should in accordance with the wording of the rule? Succinctly, is the enforcement of punishment consistent with the rules, and if not, you must correct it by some means.

Now, regarding "significant advantage," I'm sure you're all aware this is not quantifiable. Therefore, you are all weighing your opinions against each other, opinions which may not be absolute. This means that, by the rules, the decision of the admins may not be true to their feelings on the matter, as the decision must be absolute. While I disagree with the notion of subjective rulings, in this case you're stuck with one. I ask that you adjust your punishment to be equivalent to the strength of your opinions regarding this incident rather than allow yourselves to be cornered by your own poorly written rule, forced to pass judgment you may not wholly agree with. Even if your position regarding the NA incident remains unchanged, then I strongly advise you to rewrite this rule after. You cannot quantify something with opinions, and attempting to do so will create distrust and animosity in the community. If your desire is zero tolerance, then the rule should read "and the admins determine that any advantage was gained," or better, "any non-excepted changes were made." It is best if nothing is left to interpretation.

Spoiler: TL;DR

At the very least, Arys should be banned from play in accordance with the rules.

The rules say incidents must be reported within 30 minutes of a match ending. It is implied, therefore, that reports after this will not be given credence, and the reported results will thereby be considered valid. Thus, it is unfair to punish NA for the NA v FIN match as the window to report an incident was past, and both FIN and the admin(s) reviewing the screenshots failed to report or enforce the rules.

It is your responsibility to ensure rules are enforced, and also that they are enforced properly. The rules also say that only "relevant rounds" will be forfeited by an offending team or player. Was punishment enforced in accordance with the rules in the case of NA v AUT? Were there any rounds where Arys' texture mod would have been irrelevant to play because there were no javelins, and do the results of these rounds stand? Or, were all rounds forfeited in a blanket punishment, not in accordance with the rules?

"Significant advantage" is not quantifiable, thus justifications for & against it are subjective. This is a poorly written rule that is restrictive to the admins, and at the very least should be rewritten. I also implore you to consider alternative punishment that may better reflect the opinions of the admins in this case, rather than cornering yourselves with a poorly written rule and passing an absolute judgment you may not entirely agree with.

Thank you for your time & patience.

- Orion/Marnid

I decided to post it here in case others have any desire to discuss it, as was my original intention. Unfortunately the thread was locked until very recently.

I would like to add that because the NA v FIN match was unreported, then any actions in that match were implicitly allowed through that negligence. If you do not enforce your rules then you cannot reasonably expect others to follow them.

 

[drunkenbabies]

suggestion: pretend this NC never happened

 

[Rayden]

alright, from what i have heard, admins decided to give fin def win because match was so close, arys' blue projectiles could affect the match's result.(like even if not hs, he could make too much damage in a round etc.)

admins thought they had to treat everyone equally so they applied the rules and aut got def win just because of fin got def win but the thing is arys' blue projectiles cant affect such result like 10-3

since fin accepted to have their 8-8 back, you dont need to give anyone def, just ban arys

i know the situation very well, when sota got banned for his pink projectiles admins didnt punish the whole team for a personal **** up, now for NA team it should be same, i dont see the reason why whole NA team should be punished plus they didnt even know about arys' textures, they were not even aware of that just like many of us.

now admins say they might delay our match against NA cuz they will make a decision but if they do that it will affect UK or PL as well so its not too late just dont give anyone def and let us play tonight

 

[Fietta]

Hey can I be admin for upcoming tournaments? 

 

[Rayden]

do not blame admin team, if you look at this from their perspective you would understand why they made such decision but like i said since fin accepted their normal score this should not be a problem anymore.

and pls aut you cant cry about this, blue projectiles has nothing to do with 10-3

 

[Fietta]

'do not blame admin team, if you look at this from their perspective you would understand why they made such decision', I truly don't understand it from 'their perspective', what they've done should never ever have been suggested. I'll tell you the same example. Arni, the cheater, the person who played when was banned and also the DDOSer played and teams in which he's played on only had Arni punished and not the whole team. So from MY perspective the admins gave out some pretty bad consequences on NA and I CANNOT see how I shouldn't blame the admins, who else gave out that suggestion? not the community.

 

[Surkan]

you can't compare this situation to arni playing in the wnl or whatever it was

 

[Dyktator]

Hey can I be admin for upcoming tournaments? 

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,344002.msg8227182.html#msg8227182 *caugh* *caugh*
Goodbye Fietta.

Spoiler

NC_PL, that gives a large advantage to you, don't really matter if it's based in France

 

[Alene]

Admin team used some common sense and kept original scores of the matches.

The new decision is that Arys' tournament ban will be upheld but the original results of NA vs FIN and NA vs AUT & SWI will stand (8-8 and 10-3, respectively).

I think most of us are content with this ruling.

Now let's leave the incident behind and focus on upcoming matches.

Edit: No, I'm still not part of the admin team, just a player.

 

[Fietta]

Hey can I be admin for upcoming tournaments? 

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,344002.msg8227182.html#msg8227182 *caugh* *caugh*
Goodbye Fietta.

Spoiler

NC_PL, that gives a large advantage to you, don't really matter if it's based in France

Sorry as an admin you should be talking professionally, you even prove you're not a good one. That being said, I'm here for the forums and to save NA's ass from people like you. Anyways with the 'You can't compare with Arni' Surkan, would you like me to do a Sotamursu comparison instead? They're both stupid bans.

Admin team used some common sense and kept original scores of the matches.

 

[Orion]

Admin team used some common sense and kept original scores of the matches.

The new decision is that Arys' tournament ban will be upheld but the original results of NA vs FIN and NA vs AUT & SWI will stand (8-8 and 10-3, respectively).

I think most of us are content with this ruling.

Now let's leave the incident behind and focus on upcoming matches.

Edit: No, I'm still not part of the admin team, just a player.

That is a gracious decision, and I hope the North American team appreciates the leniency the admins have shown in this situation.

 

[Fietta]

Orion or NA should appreciate the fact that the community changed this decision or it'll be kept the same. Any whom, it's over. I'm glad the NC will continue without any flaming, good job everyone.

 

[Viktor]

Admin team used some common sense and kept original scores of the matches.

The new decision is that Arys' tournament ban will be upheld but the original results of NA vs FIN and NA vs AUT & SWI will stand (8-8 and 10-3, respectively).

I think most of us are content with this ruling.

Now let's leave the incident behind and focus on upcoming matches.

Edit: No, I'm still not part of the admin team, just a player.

That is a gracious decision, and I hope the North American team appreciates the leniency the admins have shown in this situation.

I completely agree.

 

[Orion]

Orion or NA should appreciate the fact that the community changed this decision or it'll be kept the same. Any whom, it's over. I'm glad the NC will continue without any flaming, good job everyone.

They haven't said what (if anything) influenced their decision. As much as I would like to believe the community had something to do with it, this may be what some of them wanted to do from the beginning. It's up to them to explain that, if they want.

 

[Danate]

Thanks for a compromise. When NA wakes up i'm sure we all will be grateful.

 

[captain lust]

Of course this shows the influence of the community. If a ruling is not tolerated, it is because the players know this game and they have knowledge of what are the right standards when dealing with an issue like cheating. I don't think anyone would have objected to defaults if an NA player was found to have been using an auto blocker, for instance.

I'm glad that the admin team was able to rally and make a fast decision as well.

The important thing is to remain in condemnation of the rule break itself though. It's no good splitting the community when we can all agree that we want to play in a fair and honest environment. All of us are responsible for making that the reality, so individuals unfortunately have the potential to let us all down. Enough said on that point though.

What I need to make abundantly clear is that Fiesta was in no way responsible for bringing about a re-evaluation or change in this ruling.

They haven't said what (if anything) influenced their decision. As much as I would like to believe the community had something to do with it, this may be what some of them wanted to do from the beginning. It's up to them to explain that, if they want.

I don't think anyone really benefits from us discussing the internals of this during the tournament. I can say that cheating always creates a lot of very difficult decisions and this occurrence was no exception.