[NC2014] Suggestions
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I didn't say it has to be Nord Town, I said it would be Nord Town. 
But if you want some reasons, I'm okay with that;
Firstly, Nord Town is better well known map by community(It's not really a reason but still). And playing cav in Verloren is dreadful(Dat tunnel). Also lower end pc's are having FPS issues with Verloren.
sorry for bad Englando btw
But if you want some reasons, I'm okay with that; Firstly, Nord Town is better well known map by community(It's not really a reason but still). And playing cav in Verloren is dreadful(Dat tunnel
). Also lower end pc's are having FPS issues with Verloren.sorry for bad Englando btw
Grenade said:I didn't say it has to be Nord Town, I said it would be Nord Town.
Firstly, Nord Town is better well known map by community(It's not really a reason but still). And playing cav in Verloren is dreadful(Dat tunnel
sorry for bad Englando btw
None of these reasons make it unappropriate for competitive play
POM_Zero
Master Knight
The map is unbalanced. The team that controls the tower controls the map even though they are camping a single place. They have all three master under control, and lets say the other team moves closer to one of the master they still cant control or even fight for control of map. Now with that being said one team has the advantage to get to the tower. One spawn if both teams spawn at the same time is faster then the other by a few seconds but still enough to retain control of the tower. Which this all makes for a boring map, because its either:Grenade said:
a. Rush tower
b. Wait for Master
c. push tower (if other team has control of it) <- terrible option
After playing Verloren for a extensive amount of time I can say its one of the worse competitive maps out there, even sota's ****ty maps are better then it. Those are the personally the reasons why I dislike Veloren and do not think its a good map.
I would agree that the map is inherently unbalanced, but not because of the tower. Most maps are unOne thing to keep in mind is that the NA and EU competitive scenes use different versions of the map. In EU, the tower is easier to assault, even if a team is already holding it. Regardless of how difficult or not the tower is to take, I don't think it give a team map control at all. Holding the spawn nearer to market (can't remember if it's top or bottom spawn, but it's the one that's more elevated) gives faster access to all three MotF spawns. If one team chooses to rush to and hold tower, the other team can easily let them have it and still have superior map control for when MotF spawns.Balion Zero said:
Also, wouldn't your analysis of the only three options available in Verloren loosely apply to pretty much any map ever?
a. Rush secure holding point.
b. Wait of MotF.
c. Push secure holding point (when already being held).
Basically, I personally don't see why Verloren is competitively any less viable than a map like Nord Town.
Two out of three masters. You would be behind the team camping tower if it spawned in the lower spawn at the entrance to the tunnel. The tower gives fast access to all three masters and an advantage on the lower right master from the top spawn. (Bye the trees) It provides far more map control than say camping the tops of the spawns on Nord Town and greatly more map control than any open/mixed map.Juvenile said:
I'd say the large difference Verloran and "aren't you describing every map" is how you cannot counter the move at all. The short run distance does not allow a cav rush to delay the stairs and both teams meet at the same time, giving the advantage to the side with stair access. So if you compare this to camping the ruins on Frosty Battle, the difference is obvious. The tower is far more defensive than "any" other campable point on other maps. A ruins or hill can be flanked with archers. The tower cannot and due to the houses and overhang you cannot place shots on it. (Although I've landed shots blind shooting under the overhang at inf on the stairs.)
Please be aware that my analysis is based solely on the NA version of the map, and I cannot speak for how balanced the map is with easier roof access. I imagine the balance would be better.
I have run through the theory before, and I find myself in agreement with Mad Dawg. The tower controls one flag spawn (one closest to tunnels) and easily contests the other two. No other point in the map has this advantage, and there is no way to surround(with archers) or flank the tower effectively if proper scouting is done. If the flag spawns near tunnels, the team in tower has an incredibly easy path to it. If it spawns in market, then there is a possibility of being flanked but I would argue the odds are, at best, 50/50 if the enemy team is near market. If it spawns near the beer alley, then the team from tower can jump over the low wall and very quickly reach the flag with little risk of crossfire and cav disruption.
I've put these ideas into practice, and it still holds. Tower, frankly, is the best spot to hold. Unlike camping spawn in Nord Town or any other map, the tower also happens to have complete and total map control. Not only does this make for an unbalanced map, but it makes for extremely stagnant game play. Despite the decent amounts of open area, cav support is rendered largely redundant and most battles come down to a melee brawl in the tower. There's incredibly little strategic or tactical depth to the map, as it largely amounts to being Nords or Rhodoks and taking the tower and waiting until flag.
I would recommend swapping it with Nord Town as well.
Incredibly rude and ignorant comment to make. I am disappoint.
I have run through the theory before, and I find myself in agreement with Mad Dawg. The tower controls one flag spawn (one closest to tunnels) and easily contests the other two. No other point in the map has this advantage, and there is no way to surround(with archers) or flank the tower effectively if proper scouting is done. If the flag spawns near tunnels, the team in tower has an incredibly easy path to it. If it spawns in market, then there is a possibility of being flanked but I would argue the odds are, at best, 50/50 if the enemy team is near market. If it spawns near the beer alley, then the team from tower can jump over the low wall and very quickly reach the flag with little risk of crossfire and cav disruption.
I've put these ideas into practice, and it still holds. Tower, frankly, is the best spot to hold. Unlike camping spawn in Nord Town or any other map, the tower also happens to have complete and total map control. Not only does this make for an unbalanced map, but it makes for extremely stagnant game play. Despite the decent amounts of open area, cav support is rendered largely redundant and most battles come down to a melee brawl in the tower. There's incredibly little strategic or tactical depth to the map, as it largely amounts to being Nords or Rhodoks and taking the tower and waiting until flag.
I would recommend swapping it with Nord Town as well.
Gelden said:
Incredibly rude and ignorant comment to make. I am disappoint.
I like the map and think it's pretty well balanced. Seen some fantastic matches on it and almost always different class setups from the opposing teams which is somewhat refreshing. I certainly think in both the WNL and the ECS it was a great success and widely enjoyed by both spectators and teams. Didn't really notice any of the problems being spoken of above in any of the matches i've participated in or watched.
I wouldn't call leaving spawn and hiding in the tower "playing" the map, Gelden.Gelden said:
Wouldn't say this is a crusade or anything but most of the points have validity.
Eternal said:
From my own experience of playing it teams that solely camp the tower tend to lose. Yes you have a central location but without crossfires on the flags and at the risk of crossfire yourself as you come out of the tower, its just a poor position to take. It can be used well as a supporting element and it is difficult to attack if held but that's it.
Have to question exactly how you or your opponents are playing it if you have no risk of crossfire when coming out of it, especially considering the numerous positions crossfires could be employed and have been employed in the times I have played it.
Also describing the tower as having complete and total map control is just nonsense, it has partial views on two flags of which it cannot see any of the other good firing positions for those flags. It has 3 entrances all of which are severe chokes and the only other route across the map it can adequately be used to control is the central one. Both the tunnels and the brewery route cannot be seen by it at all really.
Mad Dawg said:
You're bringing up run distance, how is that remotely relevant on a map this small? You could take any route from the opposite side of the map and still arrive at the flags well before they are fully raised.
about that **** about verloren:
NA guys, make sure you take in account these things:
It plays out differently in 8v8 and 7v7.
EU community is bigger, so there's obviously more testing done in EU than in NA.
I have made tactics for matches in both communities, I know both communities pretty good.
NA played an old version of Verloren
Many NA clans often do same kind of stupid tactics as most russian and polish clans. (no offense)
Verloren is gud.
NA guys, make sure you take in account these things:
It plays out differently in 8v8 and 7v7.
EU community is bigger, so there's obviously more testing done in EU than in NA.
I have made tactics for matches in both communities, I know both communities pretty good.
NA played an old version of Verloren
Many NA clans often do same kind of stupid tactics as most russian and polish clans. (no offense)
Verloren is gud.
POM_Zero
Master Knight
I can understand your point of view Deacon, my point of view is from the NA community with every verloren match has one team camping tower. Different places play the map differently, but I have also been part of Nations Cup before and no offense I know how much the European teams liked to hide and camp. For example, AE vs Balion on verloren, AE camped tower atleast half the match if not the whole match. [Huge respect to German team which was the only team last year that actually fought the NA team, that didnt hide and pull like stupid MoTF tricks to win]Killfacer said:
From the looks it seems your team isn't the best at it either. So take your **** somewhere else, because you not contributing to anything at all.Gelden said:
Mr.X
Balion Zero said:
To be fair, we scrimmed wk last night on verloren and the only time they took the tower and didn't come out early was when we also tried to take the tower and the same time and just straight up lost :p (and wk won the map like 8-2)
The differences between NA and EU versions of the map, as far as I know, are solely the extra outside ladder of the tower. NC will be played with the EU version. Verloren is in little danger of being removed.
on 5aside?Balion Zero said:
lol open plains
